An interesting morning

[acalex]

Hello everybody, this weekend I decided I want to go visting all the dealers here in Brussels to make a personal idea about gear which is sold around me. Enough reading, it's time of listening to understand well the difference between a transistor amp, a valve amp, a power amp, a class A etc...! So I went to the first shop with just a CD I like and I know well.

He didn't have a lot of stuff but the dealer seemed knowledgeable so I asked him to point me into the right direction. He didn't have the RX6 i have at home so he decided to connect some Totem, I think the Forest. He then connected a NAD C375BEE to a CD player and we played my CD (Diana Krall best of).

He was ok, didn't transmit too much emotions to be honest, I felt wasn't that much better than my Vincent + RX6. I actually had the impressions those Totem were not as nice as my RX6. My gilfriend as well didn't feel too much excited about that.

Than i saw a huge thing and I recognised the Plinius SA-103 power amp, pure class A. I asked if we could connect this after letting it warming up a little. There was a Plinius preamp as well and the source was a Paganini CD Player.

We played the same CD and wow...straight away we could hear the diffrence (fortunately :rofl🙂 . Everything was so much better, especially basses. But still I wasn't thrilled considering the total cost of the system (around 10k). Then I asked if we could hear the SA-103 with proper speakers as I had the impression those Totem were not giving full justice to the beast.

He plugged then some Kef reference (10k the pair) and then we could finally hear some 3D music. It was an amazing experience, I went through all CD, everything sounded so good, so deep, so natural, bass was amazing. Not sure if the Kef would be the right match with the Plinius anyway.

Well, I really like this kind of sound and it is something I would like to achieve slowly. Unfortunately he did not have any tube amp...nor other Class A integrated. Going around this afternoon to try some of those. I decided I will go around to listen as much as I can and make a personal opinion over different types of sounds/ampli. Then I will start taking around my RX6 and my source and fine-tune my choice.
How would you see an Audiloab M-DAC as a preamp connected to an SA-103?

 

[CnoEvil]

Don't get ahead of yourself until you've heard the 3 main contenders.

You have now had a brief taste of Class A through good speakers, which is quite addictive....just remember that a high quality system needs a source to match. I can vouch for how well the AMS35i + Kef Ref sounds.

 

[acalex]

Don't get ahead of yourself until you've heard the 3 main contenders. You have now had a brief taste of Class A through good speakers, which is quite addictive....just remember that a high quality system needs a source to match. I can vouch for how well the AMS35i + Kef Ref sounds.

You are right! 🙂 But I really liked the sound and it was difficult to get out of there 😀

Do you have Kef reference yourself?

Booked on Wednesday a demo to try some class A tube amp as I want to have some time to assess the sound of a nice tube amp. For now I keep hearing how musical and emotional a tube is (which is what I am looking for, emotions)...but didn't have a real opportunity to sit and listen.

I will demo a Jadis DA50 Signature. Hopefully he will get back the AMS35i in time so I can compare the two. I don't wanna do too much in just one session but take the time to listen, digest and come back to listen to something else. I would like to choose carefully this time...and I must say the all process is really a lot of fun!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hello everybody, this weekend I decided I want to go visting all the dealers here in Brussels to make a personal idea about gear which is sold around me. Enough reading, it's time of listening to understand well the difference between a transistor amp, a valve amp, a power amp, a class A etc...! So I went to the first shop with just a CD I like and I know well.

He didn't have a lot of stuff but the dealer seemed knowledgeable so I asked him to point me into the right direction. He didn't have the RX6 i have at home so he decided to connect some Totem, I think the Forest. He then connected a NAD C375BEE to a CD player and we played my CD (Diana Krall best of).

He was ok, didn't transmit too much emotions to be honest, I felt wasn't that much better than my Vincent + RX6. I actually had the impressions those Totem were not as nice as my RX6. My gilfriend as well didn't feel too much excited about that.

Than i saw a huge thing and I recognised the Plinius SA-103 power amp, pure class A. I asked if we could connect this after letting it warming up a little. There was a Plinius preamp as well and the source was a Paganini CD Player.

We played the same CD and wow...straight away we could hear the diffrence (fortunately :rofl🙂 . Everything was so much better, especially basses. But still I wasn't thrilled considering the total cost of the system (around 10k). Then I asked if we could hear the SA-103 with proper speakers as I had the impression those Totem were not giving full justice to the beast.

He plugged then some Kef reference (10k the pair) and then we could finally hear some 3D music. It was an amazing experience, I went through all CD, everything sounded so good, so deep, so natural, bass was amazing. Not sure if the Kef would be the right match with the Plinius anyway.

Well, I really like this kind of sound and it is something I would like to achieve slowly. Unfortunately he did not have any tube amp...nor other Class A integrated. Going around this afternoon to try some of those. I decided I will go around to listen as much as I can and make a personal opinion over different types of sounds/ampli. Then I will start taking around my RX6 and my source and fine-tune my choice.
How would you see an Audiloab M-DAC as a preamp connected to an SA-103?

Hi acalex

Nice one 🙂

Other than Diana Krall did you also listen to anything else?

Merry christmas

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

I own Kef Reference 205/2, which are imo the best speakers to have where a mix of AV and 2 channel is required. If I was 2 channel only, I would probably have SF, because I place emotional involvement and musicality above all else.
My source is a Magic DS, which is why I push the Linn as being a must hear, if in budget.

The Reference range are relatively efficient (90 db), but impedance drops to 3.2 ohms (205/2). This means that they are an unwise match with a lot of Valve amps, which would not be happy supplying the current needed to drive them properly(unlike SS Class A).

As you are considering a Valve amp, I would give MA a ring with the amp model, and check out the impedance curve of your speakers, in case it's not advisable.
This doesn't matter if the speakers are going as well.

 

[acalex]

Hi acalex

Nice one 🙂

Other than Diana Krall did you also listen to anything else?

Merry christmas

Rick @ Musicraft

Rick, to be honest didn't have much time so I listened to this cd as I know it very well. I listened to some classic from Vivaldi as well, very intense...but according to the dealer the amp wasn't warm enough yet. Unfortunately weekends at Xmas time is the worst time to have some quality listening...that's why I am planning to do a second tour in January, maybe during the week, with more music!

 

[acalex]

I own Kef Reference 205/2, which are imo the best speakers to have where a mix of AV and 2 channel is required. If I was 2 channel only, I would probably have SF, because I place emotional involvement and musicality above all else. My source is a Magic DS, which is why I push the Linn as being a must hear, if in budget. The Reference range are relatively efficient (90 db), but impedance drops to 3.2 ohms (205/2). This means that they are an unwise match with a lot of Valve amps, which would not be happy supplying the current needed to drive them properly(unlike SS Class A). As you are considering a Valve amp, I would give MA a ring with the amp model, and check out the impedance curve of your speakers, in case it's not advisable. This doesn't matter if the speakers are going as well.

That's me, indeed. I would like to have something which gives me great emotions and is very musical, that's why I am contemplating at valve amps as well. Speakers are staying for now...as I can't blow 10k eur all together since I am buying to plan an appartment as well at the end of 2012! But for sure in 2013 they are going to get something high-end as well...and I rellay like the SF style, I bet they sound wonderful as well, still haven't had the opportunity to demo any of them.

So a SS class A (like the MF) has a lot of current behind and can drive properly speakers with resistance dropping quite low, correct? That's not the case with valves which do not have the same level of current so prefer more "linear" (can we say that meaning resistance not changing much?) speakers?

In terms of source...once I have sorted the amp out I will start digging more into this. For now I am quite happy with SBT but I understand at a certain point this will start making a difference. Actually once I decided which type of sound I like (so which amp) I will start sorting out the source...and see if adding a better DAC to the SBT makes sense or is better just replacing everything with an all-in-one streaming solution (like the DS Magic).

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi acalex

Nice one 🙂

Other than Diana Krall did you also listen to anything else?

Merry christmas

Rick @ Musicraft

Rick, to be honest didn't have much time so I listened to this cd as I know it very well. I listened to some classic from Vivaldi as well, very intense...but according to the dealer the amp wasn't warm enough yet. Unfortunately weekends at Xmas time is the worst time to have some quality listening...that's why I am planning to do a second tour in January, maybe during the week, with more music!

Hi acalex

Thanks for your reply.

When you do start your next tour of auditioning then i'll recommend that you also try Carl Orff - O Fortuna with the SA-103 (when it has warmed up though). The SA-103's quality of performance and power (with its big swing peak to peak current capability of 100A) will energize speakers and thereby enable the quality of this recording to shine 🙂

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

That's me, indeed. I would like to have something which gives me great emotions and is very musical, that's why I am contemplating at valve amps as well. Speakers are staying for now...as I can't blow 10k eur all together since I am buying to plan an appartment as well at the end of 2012! But for sure in 2013 they are going to get something high-end as well...and I rellay like the SF style, I bet they sound wonderful as well, still haven't had the opportunity to demo any of them.

So a SS class A (like the MF) has a lot of current behind and can drive properly speakers with resistance dropping quite low, correct? That's not the case with valves which do not have the same level of current so prefer more "linear" (can we say that meaning resistance not changing much?) speakers?

In terms of source...once I have sorted the amp out I will start digging more into this. For now I am quite happy with SBT but I understand at a certain point this will start making a difference. Actually once I decided which type of sound I like (so which amp) I will start sorting out the source...and see if adding a better DAC to the SBT makes sense or is better just replacing everything with an all-in-one streaming solution (like the DS Magic).

The Pathos and the AMS35i both have have good current behind them, and I'm fairly sure the AR also has.

If you want to hear what a Valve amp can do, you will need to use suitable speakers, which I'm not sure yours are....it's this uncertainty that led me to suggest the call to MA technical.

The reason I mentioned the source, is for demo purposes, in order to properly hear the amps' capability.

IMO. An all-in-one streaming solution is much better...but that's my ears. It is my belief that the transport makes an important difference, so the SBT will be the weak link in an expensive system.

Anyways, there is interesting times ahead....and I will be waiting with anticipation to hear your thoughts.

 

[acalex]

Hi acalex

Nice one 🙂

Other than Diana Krall did you also listen to anything else?

Merry christmas

Rick @ Musicraft

Rick, to be honest didn't have much time so I listened to this cd as I know it very well. I listened to some classic from Vivaldi as well, very intense...but according to the dealer the amp wasn't warm enough yet. Unfortunately weekends at Xmas time is the worst time to have some quality listening...that's why I am planning to do a second tour in January, maybe during the week, with more music!

Hi acalex

Thanks for your reply.

When you do start your next tour of auditioning then i'll recommend that you also try Carl Orff - O Fortuna with the SA-103 (when it has warmed up though). The SA-103's quality of performance and power (with its big swing peak to peak current capability of 100A) will energize speakers and thereby enable the quality of this recording to shine 🙂

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Just tried on my actual system! I recognize is a great piece of music...but I have to admit it does not "scare me off" as I guess it is supposed to do when you listen to it live, that must be an unforgettable experience. This will indeed be a great testing for my next tour. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[acalex]

The Pathos and the AMS35i both have have good current behind them, and I'm fairly sure the AR also has. If you want to hear what a Valve amp can do, you will need to use suitable speakers, which I'm not sure yours are....it's this uncertainty that led me to suggest the call to MA technical. The reason I mentioned the source, is for demo purposes, in order to properly hear the amps' capability. IMO. An all-in-one streaming solution is much better...but that's my ears. It is my belief that the transport makes an important difference, so the SBT will be the weak link in an expensive system. Anyways, there is interesting times ahead....and I will be waiting with anticipation to hear your thoughts.

This is what I keep hearing around as well...one dealer told me the exact same thing...and it makes sense I agree. I am also aware that soon the SBT will be the weakelist link...looking forward to that moment!!! :bounce: For now it works fairly well on y entry-level system and I am very happy about that!

Yes, very interesting time ahead I must admit...and also a lot of great music!

 

[acalex]

Cno, in terms of impedance I made some research on the web and this is what I got where the red line is referring to the RX6.

Actually nominal value is 6ohms with a minimum of 3.9ohms. Sensitivity is 88db

 

[CnoEvil]

Actually nominal value is 6ohms with a minimum of 3.9ohms. Sensitivity is 88db

That doesn't look to me like a good match for most valve amps at sensible money....but I am happy to admit that my techy side is not what it could be, so don't take it as gospel.

 

[acalex]

Actually nominal value is 6ohms with a minimum of 3.9ohms. Sensitivity is 88db

That doesn't look to me like a good match for most valve amps at sensible money....but I am happy to admit that my techy side is not what it could be, so don't take it as gospel.

What might happen if the amp is not able to drive properly the speakers? It is anyway something I have to dig more into since I am not planning to get rid of my speakers for now! Thanks a lot for pointing it out!

 

[paradiziac]

What might happen if the amp is not able to drive properly the speakers?

Boring sound, you can easily go away and do something else instead of being gripped by the music.

It will probably still be "loud" enough, which confuses some people.

 

[CnoEvil]

What might happen if the amp is not able to drive properly the speakers? It is anyway something I have to dig more into since I am not planning to get rid of my speakers for now! Thanks a lot for pointing it out!

The speakers will sound pretty terrible, especially in the bass...if it's a bad mismatch, it will be very obvious, with the amp clipping badly. Best avoided.

If nothing only a tube amp will do, you could probably sell your speakers and get some Audio Note ones, with no great loss (depending on model)....eg. To tide you over. This would be a last resort ie. if you much prefer the valve sound to that of the other amps on your list (possible, but unlikely).

 

[acalex]

What might happen if the amp is not able to drive properly the speakers?

Boring sound, you can easily go away and do something else instead of being gripped by the music.

It will probably still be "loud" enough, which confuses some people.

I see, thanks for the explanation! I want to :dance: when I listen to the music!

 

[acalex]

What might happen if the amp is not able to drive properly the speakers? It is anyway something I have to dig more into since I am not planning to get rid of my speakers for now! Thanks a lot for pointing it out!

The speakers will sound pretty terrible, especially in the bass...if it's a bad mismatch, it will be very obvious, with the amp clipping badly. Best avoided. If nothing only a tube amp will do, you could probably sell your speakers and get some Audio Note ones, with no great loss (depending on model)....eg. To tide you over. This would be a last resort ie. if you much prefer the valve sound to that of the other amps on your list (possible, but unlikely).

So you are convinced I will like more the other amps on my list than any valve amp...I am really curios to see how I will get with it! 🙂

 

[CnoEvil]

So you are convinced I will like more the other amps on my list than any valve amp...I am really curios to see how I will get with it! 🙂

That's nearly what I'm saying. I don't think a Valve amp will sound as good with YOUR speakers.

There is also the fact that you have chosen some of the most "valve sounding" amps to try....you could argue, combining the strengths of both types.

 

[acalex]

So you are convinced I will like more the other amps on my list than any valve amp...I am really curios to see how I will get with it! 🙂

That's nearly what I'm saying. I don't think a Valve amp will sound as good with YOUR speakers. There is also the fact that you have chosen some of the most "valve sounding" amps to try....you could argue, combining the strengths of both types.

You are right. But I need to go through this all "tube amps" thing to put my mind at rest. I will eventually take my speakers already at the demo on Wednesday in order to cross the Jadis off the list in case the sound is not right.

I think I will stick to Musical Fidelity and Jadis only for this demo...if Jadis is not doing the trick I will stop looking at tube amps for now. I still want to take another proper listening to the Plinius since in my opinion conditions were not right to fully enjoy it. By the way, the speakers I connected to the Plinius were Kef ref 205/2.

More will follow...stay tuned :rockout:

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

hi Acalex

you don't have to worry that tube amp would not drive your speakers. as far as I remember you said you wanted to audition ARC VSi 60. this amp will kick the crap out your speakers easily. most modern push-pull or parallel SE tube amps will have no problems driving speakers like yours. if speaker's impedance characteristic drops well below 4 Ohms you'll have to start worrying. just stay away from tube SET amps as those usually have very high output impedance and therefore indeed need very special speakers to sound their best (think: higher end Audio Note or Voxativ for instance).

if you liked this "O Fortuna" piece (I knew this piece, but I never knew what was its title. anyway never really liked it, it's waaaay too pompous for my taste) you might also like Prokofiev's "Dance of the knights" from "Romeo and Juliet".

 

[acalex]

hi Acalex

you don't have to worry that tube amp would not drive your speakers. as far as I remember you said you wanted to audition ARC VSi 60. this amp will kick the crap out your speakers easily. most modern push-pull or parallel SE tube amps will have no problems driving speakers like yours. if speaker's impedance characteristic drops well below 4 Ohms you'll have to start worrying. just stay away from tube SET amps as those usually have very high output impedance and therefore indeed need very special speakers to sound their best (think: higher end Audio Note or Voxativ for instance).

if you liked this "O Fortuna" piece (I knew this piece, but I never knew what was its title. anyway never really liked it, it's waaaay too pompous for my taste) you might also like Prokofiev's "Dance of the knights" from "Romeo and Juliet".

Yes, but one of the dealers suggested to try the Jadis DA50 Signature which I am demoing on Wednseday with my speakers...hopefully I will be able to do a direct comparison with the MF AMS35i...

Thanks for the suggestion, I will try tomorrow this piece as now it is way too late to put any music on :rofl:

 

[CnoEvil]

The Jadis is a wonderful amp, which if happy driving the speakers, should sound lush, liquid, musical, warm and relaxed. It will be unbeatable with certain genres of music, but won't have enough "bite" for others.

The AMS35i should sound quite different to this (less rose tinted), but still very musical. It is more of an all rounder and should have deeper tighter bass, with a less dark, airier treble....probably more exciting but slightly less emotional, due to being less coloured and with more current behind it. It will also be more versatile where future speakers are concerned and less hassle to own (no tubes etc).

Maybe someone on here will know if the Jadis can handle your MAs, but personally I would like to see speakers with a sensitivity of 90 db+ and an impedance that doesn't drop so low.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I will try tomorrow this piece as now it is way too late to put any music on :rofl:

Hi acalex

Good idea 🙂 Otherwise no more pizzas 😉

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[acalex]

I will try tomorrow this piece as now it is way too late to put any music on :rofl:

Hi acalex

Good idea 🙂 Otherwise no more pizzas 😉

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Ahaha, yes indeed. It was actually very good :clap: