Adding another amp to my current AV setup (to improve 2-channel playback)

[ChrisGTL]

Hi all,

I've just spent hours reading these forums for stories similar to mine and have some baseline ideas, but as everyone is different and has different requirements I thought I would start my own so I can buildup a better picture of the route I want to go down.

Basically I have a 5.1 system comprising of:

- Yamaha RX-A1010 (in bi-amped mode)

- MA BX2's (my room is not big enough for floorstanders and I was always under the impression that my speaker budget would buy me better stand-mounts than floorstanders)

- BK Electronic XLSS400 Subwoofer

- MA BX2 Cetre Speaker

- Onkyo Satellite Speakers

While I am not dissatisfied with the 2-channel playback I am not blown away neither. I understand my Yammy 1010 is a AV amp so 2-channel playback isn't going to be as good as a £400 integrated amp for example.

The Yammy 1010 does have pre-outs so I have the option of adding an additional 2-channel integrated amp to my setup (I already have some spare Townshend interconnects). I've been reading about the options available to me in terms of which amps have these clever AV passthrough features aka Unity Gain, Home Theater Direct Input, Processor Mode etc.

I'm looking to buy the best I can with my budget of £400, so perhaps second hand will be the way to go. Also, can't stand silver aesthetics so really needs to be black to match the rest of my system.

Any advice out there from you folks?

**Edit** Forgot to say - music tastes are Queen (some fast and punchy and some slower more mellow tracks), 80's pop/dance. Plan B, Beatles, Madonna. I just want my music to have more depth and feel more alive..

 

[kmlav]

I do this , all be it with a Pre / Power solution and it works very well. The 2 channel stuff, in my case the streamer, misses out the AV amp and goes direct to the Pre / Power. This works really well and you will notice a huge improvement in your 2 channel experience.

The way we all listen to music is so different and in many ways all of the data is on the recording and it just becomes polluted by the kit you play it through. Some kit colours the sound more that others and there are some that prefer the sound that has been manipulated by their kit over the actual real sound of the recording itself. We all have been to live shows when the band is really on it and other shows when its the end of a long tour or the lead singer has a sore throat and its just not as good. In recorded music in principal it should be a representation of the band at its best so if the kit is making the guitar seem lazy or the vocals muddy then its just like going to a concert when the band is having a off day. look for that in the kit - do the musicians sound like they are having a good day or a bad day .. is there a connection with the artist... if it was live can you feel the space it was recorded in.

I am a big Cyrus fan (other brands are available) and thought that the new 6a integrated was a cracking unit for the money and has the advantage of being upgradeable. It is however over budget at £750 but if you speak nicely to you local store its always possible to do a deal.

 

[richardw42]

I'd have thought your Yamaha (especially bi amped) would be the equal of any £400 stereo emp.

You could try different speakers. Part ex your BX2s for RX1 or 2

 

[ChrisGTL]

I do this , all be it with a Pre / Power solution and it works very well. The 2 channel stuff, in my case the streamer, misses out the AV amp and goes direct to the Pre / Power. This works really well and you will notice a huge improvement in your 2 channel experience.

The way we all listen to music is so different and in many ways all of the data is on the recording and it just becomes polluted by the kit you play it through. Some kit colours the sound more that others and there are some that prefer the sound that has been manipulated by their kit over the actual real sound of the recording itself. We all have been to live shows when the band is really on it and other shows when its the end of a long tour or the lead singer has a sore throat and its just not as good. In recorded music in principal it should be a representation of the band at its best so if the kit is making the guitar seem lazy or the vocals muddy then its just like going to a concert when the band is having a off day. look for that in the kit - do the musicians sound like they are having a good day or a bad day .. is there a connection with the artist... if it was live can you feel the space it was recorded in.

I am a big Cyrus fan (other brands are available) and thought that the new 6a integrated was a cracking unit for the money and has the advantage of being upgradeable. It is however over budget at £750 but if you speak nicely to you local store its always possible to do a deal.

I completely agree with your live show anology. If money wasn't an issue we would all have seperate systems depending on if it is audio or video. We might even go as far as having different amps/speakers with different characteristics depending on the type of audio we listen to.......however............funds are limited for me and I want to get the best of both world while keeping the amount of equipment I have/need down to a minimum.

Things is; all my source comes from my home theater PC, be it video files/blu-ray/FLAC etc. So it all comes into the Yamaha RX-A1010 via HDMI, my HTPC does not have a soundcard or any kind of coaxial/optical output so I am limited to using HDMI (bitstreaming) via the graphics card HDMI.

I've spoken to Superfi about this and they reckon a £700-800 AV amp will not be as good as a dedicated amp @ £400. Not sure what to believe about this statement - when I questioned it they gave me the asnwer of AV amps contain a lot more requipment/channels so the cost of the components are cheaper than a dedicated amp that has a lot less internals, in which case manufactorers can use more higher end components.

Not sure if to go down the secondary amp route or concentrate on some better stand-mount speakers. I'm thinking if I spend £600 on some RX's will my current amp be good enough to take advantage of them or will I be advised to get a better amp to make any new speakers sing.

 

[Ben K.]

I use my cd and amp as a stand alone system and then just use av bypass for home cinema. I will share my experience with you that may help you. I originally used my Yamaha rxv2065 (£1000) for 2 channel music with a marantz cd6003 as a source. I then added in my old arcam a75 (£450) via pre outs and used it stand alone for 2 channel. This was a very big improvement in my opinion, as if a box had been lifted off the speakers. As for home cinema not really any difference. By the way at the time I had br2 speakers similar to yours.

Adding an amp will only be worthwhile if you can connect a source direct to it other wise you will still be using the pre amp of the Yamaha and will probably not notice much change (I did use a rotel power amp for a while and improvements were minimal). If you do go for an amp then arcam will be a good match for your speakers. If 2nd hand maybe a85 or a32 perhaps.

Upgrading to RX speakers is a big step up I thought but then you will really benefit from a dedicated 2 channel amp.

 

[jonathanRD]

2 years ago I had my hifi system (Rega amp, cdp & mission speakers) but wanted to get into home cinema. I did consider buying an AV amp with pre-outs but eventually I decided to keep the systems seperate - although they are both in the same room.

This week I have been playing around with copying cd's to an external hard drive and as a test, listened to a CD (sourced from my hard drive) through my Onkyo 609 through the MA BX2's and played the same CD through my Rega/Mission seperates. Both sets of speakers temporarily share the same stands (I'm quite proud of this engineering feat!) so I was able to simply 'stop & start' each for a direct comparison. This might not have been a straight comparison of the amps ability, but even so the Rega/Mission hifi was significantly better - clearer, wider soundstage and generally more engaging. I haven't tried the BX2's connected to the Regas, but I suspect they will also sound better too. My AV amp was only £400 ish, so the differences maybe much less with your Yamaha.

Chris - the only way you are going to know for sure is to demo an amp - at home preferably.

By the way, I am looking to get a XLSS400 - are you happy with yours?

 

[rendu]

I have a very similar AV than yours and similar issues as well. The performance in stereo is not terrible but it is no good either, definitely not acceptable for the price of these receivers. I am afraid that all these issues can not be resolved by upgrading the speakers therefore, I am also considering the option of AV + stereo amp for the future.

I have some concerns though that maybe other users can help to clarify:

Using the AV as pre-amp - I would still need to use the AV as preamp for various reasons: iPod, Subwoofer, AM/F, PC streaming, internet radio. I want to still be able to use all this functionality therefore the AV must remain part of the equation as pre-amp. Someone mentioned that in this case, this would not be worth it. Is that really the case and experience from other users?

AV performance - I am concerned that this could impact AV performane. We pay a lot of money for expensive AV amp to drive all channels in a sincronized and consistent manner and then we replace the main 2 channel with a different amp. This sounds a little bit like changing the 2 front wheels of your car and replace with some Porche wheels, which I am concerned that it could give totally opposite result for AV. How will this impact the peformance of the AV when the 2 main channels will be driven by a different amp which may have a totally different tone, character and power than the main AV?

Any comments will be much appreciated.

 

[Neuphonix]

I went through this process last year, it is worth pursuing. However.....

You definitely want to run your source directly into the stereo amp. The idea is to remove the AV receiver completely out of the chain for music listening.

If you don't have any way of hooking up your source to the new amp you might want to reconsider. Or look at buying a DAC as well?

I would also add that unless you are willing to spend a decent amount on the new stereo amp it might not be the step up you are expecting. It should be better but maybe spending the money on speakers would give a greater level of improvement.

If you are willing to look at second hand you should be able to get better performance for you money, especially if you do your research. But obviously some risk and most liekly no chance to demo. Also, HT bypass is not as common on older integrated amps.

Good luck

 

[rendu]

I am actually thinking... when you plug the AV pre-out to the analog connections of the stereo amp, the AV actually becomes the source, not the pre-amp. Is this assumption correct? You would still use the pre-amp section of the stereo amp unless you switch to bypass mode which only new stereo equipment have.

Therefore, if I play the iPod through the AV, this would be the sequence:

iPod (source)==> AV DAC ==> AV pre-amp ==> AV pre-out output ==> stereo analogue input ==> Stereo pre-amp ==> Stereo sound.

Is this correct?

 

[kmlav]

This is the optimal set up, just noticed I forgot the center speaker .....

 

[Ben K.]

Rendu, unless av bypass is selected the integrated has no communication with the av amp. This function in effect turns it into a power amp by bypassing the pre amp section and the av takes over that role. The interconnect from the av pre out goes into a specific av in on the back of the integrated. This is how arcam do it at least and I would imagine others are the same but maybe others can confirm that.

 

[Ben K.]

I went through this process last year, it is worth pursuing. However.....

You definitely want to run your source directly into the stereo amp. The idea is to remove the AV receiver completely out of the chain for music

If you are willing to look at second hand you should be able to get better performance for you money, especially if you do your research. But obviously some risk and most liekly no chance to demo. Also, HT bypass is not as common on older integrated amps.

Couldn't agree more with these comments!

 

[Neuphonix]

You are correct in as much as it will work. But this is not the way to get the optimal sound quality.

Via this method you will still have the DAC in your AV reciever influening the sound, which given that you are considering this path is the thing you want to avoid. The diagram provided is spot on

If you remove the AV from the chain by plugging your source / DAC directly into the integrated you will remove the AV's influence on the sound.

There are many on here who would argue that a decent AV is sufficient for stereo music, & I would have to say that if your were comparing say a $1000 AV with a $400 integrated amp they may well have a strong case. If you are going to do this and get a noticable step up the integrated should be of at least teh same cost as the AV if not more. Otherwise you will get a much bigger improvement from spending the money on speakers.

Better to do both! >) :?

So in the end you essentially end up with two separte systems sharing one common set of speakers & the only time they work together is in HT mode.

Or..... you could buy one of these speaker switching boxes like I use

http://www.beresford.me/products/TC-7220.html

It doesn't allow you to use you intergated in HT mode, but you can share one set of speakers between two systems. This would open up your options on buying an integrated amp without HT bypass if say you found a good second hand option.

 

[ChrisGTL]

Hi, thanks for all the advice.

So my options are:

a) Spend £400 on s/h intergrated amp but I still need a DAC and i'd have to keep swapping the front speaker cables depending on if i'm listening to music and films.

b) Forget the amp situation and buy new speakers. Will I see a good improvement spending £400-500 on speakers over my current BX2's?

To reply to the guy asking me about the XXLS400 sub. Simply superb, I've never owned such a high quality sub before. It's tight, controlled and boy it make me smile! Surely the best £450 I've spent on my syste before!

 

[ChrisGTL]

Hi, thanks for all the advice.

So my options are:

a) Spend £400 on s/h intergrated amp but I still need a DAC and i'd have to keep swapping the front speaker cables depending on if i'm listening to music and films.

b) Forget the amp situation and buy new speakers. Will I see a good improvement spending £400-500 on speakers over my current BX2's?

To reply to the guy asking me about the XXLS400 sub. Simply superb, I've never owned such a high quality sub before. It's tight, controlled and boy it make me smile! Surely the best £450 I've spent on my system before!

 

[ChrisGTL]

Just to let anyone else reading this know:

I finally decided against another amp as it would end up been very expensive (because of the need for a secondary source input so I wouldn't have to go through my Yamaha's DAC).

So...............I bought myself a pair of Monitor Audio RX2's - they are second hand so already run-in, and I have to say WOW! What a massive difference over the BX2's. The sound is so much more 'fuller'. Everything has gone up a level or two, the bass is fantastic now using pure mode whereas pure mode on the BX's sounded flat. The midrange and tweetwers really do dance now.

All in all, very happy with this upgrade. I'm completely in love with the pure mode sound now, no need for my big subwoofer to make up the bottom end. Happy camper!!

 

[Ben K.]

I found the RX to be a big step up from the BR when I upgraded my 5.1 set up.

Maybe at some point in the future you will once again contemplate adding a stereo amp to get the best from your new speakers.

In the meantime enjoy your upgrade!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Just to let anyone else reading this know:

I finally decided against another amp as it would end up been very expensive (because of the need for a secondary source input so I wouldn't have to go through my Yamaha's DAC).

So...............I bought myself a pair of Monitor Audio RX2's - they are second hand so already run-in, and I have to say WOW! What a massive difference over the BX2's. The sound is so much more 'fuller'. Everything has gone up a level or two, the bass is fantastic now using pure mode whereas pure mode on the BX's sounded flat. The midrange and tweetwers really do dance now.

All in all, very happy with this upgrade. I'm completely in love with the pure mode sound now, no need for my big subwoofer to make up the bottom end. Happy camper!!

Thank goodness you improved your speakers and are now getting the benifit of your 1010 which I believe will excel the better quality speakers you hang of it and will better probably any sub 1000pound 2ch amp you may care to mention.(depending on preference of course)

Just bought a rx-a1020 myself for stereo reproduction, not yet strung up, but hopefully will find time this wkend.

 

[Native_bon]

Just to let anyone else reading this know:

I finally decided against another amp as it would end up been very expensive (because of the need for a secondary source input so I wouldn't have to go through my Yamaha's DAC).

So...............I bought myself a pair of Monitor Audio RX2's - they are second hand so already run-in, and I have to say WOW! What a massive difference over the BX2's. The sound is so much more 'fuller'. Everything has gone up a level or two, the bass is fantastic now using pure mode whereas pure mode on the BX's sounded flat. The midrange and tweetwers really do dance now.

All in all, very happy with this upgrade. I'm completely in love with the pure mode sound now, no need for my big subwoofer to make up the bottom end. Happy camper!!

Nice one. Right decision.. people are still saying the same things that was said years & years ago.. AV amps are now very good at playing two channel music...

 

[GSB]

I was streaming flac to my 1010 and was dissapointed,(although sat speakers arnt realy designed for stereo music!),now iv'e upgraded the 2 stereo speakers,and added in essence a better dac,connected via analougue and 1010 in pure direct....the sound is amazing

 

[Thompsonuxb]

try connecting the dac via digital coax to the amp, run it as PCM ( is that digital to digital) see if you hear an improvement.

Let us know.

 

[ChrisGTL]

Thanks guys.

Do you think HDMI can carry audio signals as good as digital coax? Currently all my source files come down HDMI, and I have no other way of connecting my Yamaha 1010 to the HTPC, however I could happily go down the route of buying a PCI-e soundcard that has digital coax out or buy one of these USB DAC's like the m2tech ones....

http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface2.html

 

[ear]

My imediat thougt when reading the first pots was that if you add another amp you would still be disappointed by the Bx2 sound.You can get better sound with other speakers like the BX5 wich are a much richer more balanced sound than the BX2.

 

[GSB]

+1 on changing the speakers,i feel this would be where you would hear a dramatic improvment

I streamed flac to my 1010 via dlna(cat5 cable).