A question for the WHF review team

steve_1979

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When you review HDMI cables do you use any scientific method to check for differences or are your reviews purely subjective?

The reason that I ask this question is because you claim that some HDMI cables can give a better picture but when Expert Reviews tested HDMI cables using good scientic method they found them to be identical.

This is the methid they used: "we captured 24 frames of the paused Sintel (one second's worth) and saved them as uncompressed bitmap files that we could then compare to original frame we'd screen-grabbed on the PC. As the TrueHD doesn't apply any correction to the source, a single pixel's difference would be highlighted. Once we had our captured frames, we needed an objective way of comparing the captured frames to the original frame we'd captured on the PC. For this we decided to use two methods. First, we used the ImageMagick Compare command. This takes two images and creates a third picture, highlighting any pixels that are different in red. Next, we created a MD5 hash of each file we captured. An MD5 hash is a unique fingerprint of file: if two files have the same MD5 hash, they're physically and scientifically identical, no argument."
 
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the record spot

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I'll be back shortly, I'm just off to rummage around for a Google image showing a dead horse being flogged.
 

Exshopguy

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Well the point is a valid one. If a publication recommends for people to spend £100's on cables to get better performance from their systems but thorough testing elsewhere shows no difference, they out to justify those recommendations. Subjective tests are hard because many times you'll think there's a difference when swapping gear but on extended blind testing it's often not the case. The HiFi industry would be taken a lot more seriously if myths got wiped out once and for all, there are plenty of tests showing things don't make a difference and challenges made for people to show they can prove they do. I've yet to see the tests showing proof backing up many of these claims strangely enough.

The industry is laughed at by the pro community and it really is time that HiFi moved into the 21st century. Dealers and manufacturers aren't always as keen for this to happen and in turn I doubt the mags funded by their ads are either.
 

steve_1979

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steve_1979 said:
When you review HDMI cables do you use any scientific method to check for differences or are your reviews purely subjective?

I think this is a perfectly reasonable question.

Are the reviews purely subjective or does WHF use any kind of measurements when comparing HDMI cables?
 
T

the record spot

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Hi Steve, no offence, but there's just been a certain chain of this kind of thing flying through the doors recently here - you know what I mean no doubt. Equally, you'll have read this: http://www.whathifi.com/how-we-test and while that doesn't go into the detail, I'm happy to hear that the team goes by a range of opinions from users than just a spec sheet, which doesn't tell you everything.

In the end, you've got to live with whatever gear you buy and I've been happy with all bar one product I've bought on the strength of a WHF review (van den hul's "The Name" interconnect in case you're wondering).

*EDIT - and yes, I appreciate you're talking about HDMI cables here. Having only ever owned two, I don't feel able to comment on perceived or actual differences between the two, or any other for that matter.
 

chebby

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Exshopguy said:
The HiFi industry would be taken a lot more seriously if myths got wiped out once and for all, there are plenty of tests showing things don't make a difference and challenges made for people to show they can prove they do. I've yet to see the tests showing proof backing up many of these claims strangely enough.

The industry is laughed at by the pro community and it really is time that HiFi moved into the 21st century. Dealers and manufacturers aren't always as keen for this to happen and in turn I doubt the mags funded by their ads are either.

What does an ideal, good quality, budget system (say £750 for everything) look like?

One that is proof from the laughter of the pro world.

One that has moved into the 21st century.

One that 'science' would approve of.

One that is acceptable in an average living room.
 
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the record spot

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I often wonder, looking at the science comment in Chebby's last post, exactly what it is that all these other techy bods in all these other audio manufacturers are doing when they're throwing out their products. Making it up as they go along I guess...
 

chebby

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the record spot said:
I often wonder, looking at the science comment in Chebby's last post, exactly what it is that all these other techy bods in all these other audio manufacturers are doing when they're throwing out their products...

Perpetuating myths, forging their credentials, holding back their technology from the 21st century of course – edited by mods, breach of House Rule No.14. (And trying to ignore all the 'pros' and scientists camped in their gardens laughing at them when they get home.)
 
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the record spot

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That'll be it then.

So...what happens when you've shelled out the readies for a damn good pair of - say - actives that trounce the competition, only to find you then need a bloody great big subwoofer to really hear them at their best? [/playthedaftladdie]
 

steve_1979

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the record spot said:
Hi Steve, no offence, but there's just been a certain chain of this kind of thing flying through the doors recently here - you know what I mean no doubt.

Hi RS. :)

Yes I understand what you're saying but it really is a genuine question about something that interests me.

The HDMI reviews say things like dark blacks, vibrant colours and natural skin tones.

How do the WHF reviewers come to these conclusions? Is it just a bunch of guys watching TV screens and giving their subjective opinions or do they do any quantitative tests to check if one cable really does have darker blacks and more vibrant colours than the next cable?
 

chebby

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the record spot said:
That'll be it then.

So...what happens when you've shelled out the readies for a damn good pair of - say - actives that trounce the competition, only to find you then need a bloody great big subwoofer to really hear them at their best?

Look, no one really appreciates what goes on in that cave in Gloucestershire. Ashley James has had to do daily battle with 'The Mad Designer' for years to stop him applying his defence avionics genius to the development of a MIRV missile to take out the Naim factory (and all it's dealerships) by making him create active loudspeakers instead.

He is saving lives on a daily basis and all he gets is criticism. It came very close to 'armegeddon' recently when the Evil Genius of the Cotswolds was found secretly modifying a batch of ADM40s with walnut veneered fins, a nose cone and a bottom firing port that was connected to a combustion chamber! Tragedy was only averted when Ashley had suspicions about the 5 tons of peroxide hair bleach and a tanker full of kerosene that arrived at his house by mistake.
 

simonlewis

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steve_1979 said:
the record spot said:
Hi Steve, no offence, but there's just been a certain chain of this kind of thing flying through the doors recently here - you know what I mean no doubt.

Hi RS. :)

Yes I understand what you're saying but it really is a genuine question about something that interests me.

The HDMI reviews say things like dark blacks, vibrant colours and natural skin tones.

How do the WHF reviewers come to these conclusions? Is it just a bunch of guys watching TV screens and giving their subjective opinions or do they do any quantitative tests to check if one cable really does have darker blacks and more vibrant colours than the next cable?

Why not just look in the back of the mag & buy a five* rated product, thats what i did & ended up with QED, no complaints from me so far.
 
T

the record spot

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Which is exactly what I did with the aforementioned van den hul cable that set me back £60. Not happy. Many were the Shuuls and Orloks that died on that apocalyptic day...
 
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the record spot

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chebby said:
Look, no one really appreciates what goes on in that cave in Gloucestershire. Ashley James has had to do daily battle with 'The Mad Designer' for years to stop him applying his defence avionics genius to the development of a MIRV missile to take out the Naim factory (and all it's dealerships) by making him create active loudspeakers instead.

He is saving lives on a daily basis and all he gets is criticism. It came very close to 'armegeddon' recently when the Evil Genius of the Cotswolds was found secretly modifying a batch of ADM40s with walnut veneered fins, a nose cone and a bottom firing port that was connected to a combustion chamber! Tragedy was only averted when Ashley had suspicions about the 5 tons of peroxide hair bleach and a tanker full of kerosene that arrived at his house by mistake.

No!! :O

I've heard deep and dark mutterings about the Nailsworth Underworld for some time now, but this strikes terror into the heart of any self-respecting speaker desgner. I fear for AEJim personally. God help him, and that's before he's sent out a pair of AE22 actives to some poor unsuspecting soul near Edinburgh too...

D'you think if that port had been sideways firing than just straight down and out the bottom, that would've made a difference? I mean, I could see them working well in a hairdresser's f'r instance.
 

simonlewis

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the record spot said:
Which is exactly what I did with the aforementioned van den hul cable that set me back £60. Not happy. Many were the Shuuls and Orloks that died on that apocalyptic day...

Thats what i did last year swapped the QED cable between my blu-ray player to the amp with a van den hul cable, i couldn't tell the difference.
 

Hi-FiOutlaw

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At home I did my own test, I connected the HDMI coming with the TV and then connected the HDMI QED Profile, and the differences were many, either with the image and the sound!

Now if there is a real difference between cables from € 20 € 30 to 60 € 80 € do not know ...

What I do know is that the WHF mag helps delimit our choices and also helps in the process of elimination.

I believe that once you buy something from a particular brand and nothing wrong happened to this object, which we get a connection somehow to that brand. At least with me it happens!

Else may be true also, to see or hear difference between cables from different range of prices we need equipment with sensitivity to highlight these differences.
 
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Anonymous

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Any kind of test is only valid if you have a control on which to base it on so in this case a £5 quid cable from Tesco say could be compared to Van Hul but the only form of testing you can do is comparison but that's just opinion. But isn't when push comes to shove all What Hifi is a website/publication which employs people with knowledge to give just that an opinion.

If we want to turn buying hifi and av equipment in to a science we destroy the whole thing that stands us apart from the geeks and nerds in computerland. I work on PC and various variations of same every day and we know a digital signal is a digital signal.

Consider this one day in the future we take two HDMI cables and subject them to 100 different test watch 900 Blu Rayson identical machines but out of 100 test we prove that cable A lets say our 5 quid job outperforms the £120 cable in more than half of these tests does this prove anything no of course not it's all subjective as we know the best spec doesn't produce the best sound and some people can't tell a NIAM from an AKAI anyway.

You might think I am spouting complete rubbish but having owned a LINN system for playing disks nothing ever can sound as good digitally but thats my opinion. Do I still have that system sadly know a family who's idea of looking after things is not dropping juice on the pile of vinyl saw that we have to accept compromise.

When I discovered HT almost 25 years ago it sounded amazing (it was so different) my dolby surround TV was the dogs but now we spend often times what I spent on that TV on a few digital cables and then debate whether they even make a difference.

I learned a long while ago there is no point in having the worlds greatest system if you spend so long looking for faults and clicks (those old vinyls) that you forget its about the music and the video my advice is if you think a cable will make your enjoyment that much better buy it. If not why not spend half of what you would of spent on the cable on another couple of excellent blurays or even a couple of CD's.
 

fr0g

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Anyone with an ounce of common sense has realised that digital leads make no blimmin difference for years. No amount of inane and unfunny filibustering will change that.
 

WinterRacer

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To the OP, you're clearly wrong, Hdmi cables can make a difference, my new longer hdmi cable from Amazon allows me to place my AppleTV so the IR receiver isn't obscured :)But increased bass, improved soundstage, sharper picture, etc., no way. How on earth does a digital cable transmitting binary words know which bits are bass & soundstage?Any degradation caused by a digital cable is caused when bits are flipped (misread). If this can't be corrected you may hear something but it won't be less bass.I strongly believe the sooner the industry accepts facts around issues such as hdmi cables the better, the alternative will just continue make hi-fi a laughing stock.To WHF, have you ever tested a couple of products and found them to perform identically?

To the OP, you're clearly wrong, Hdmi cables can make a difference, my new longer hdmi cable from Amazon allows me to place my AppleTV so the IR receiver isn't obscured :)

But increased bass, improved soundstage, sharper picture, etc., no way. How could a digital cable transmitting binary words know which bits are bass & soundstage?

Any degradation caused by a digital cable is caused when bits are flipped (misread). If this can't be corrected you may hear something but it won't be less bass.

I strongly believe the sooner the industry accepts facts around issues such as hdmi cables the better, the alternative will just continue make hi-fi a laughing stock.

To WHF, have you ever tested a couple of products and found them to perform identically?
 

fr0g

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John Duncan said:
So any threads on the subject should just be deleted?

Once the industry grows up and accepts that the tooth fairy was something your parents made up there will be no reason for threads such as this.

Massive amounts of Kudos would be gained by any publication that actively fought against the myths rather than accepting them. There is room for science in this hobby. It's science that creates the amplifiers and speakers and sources, it's bad science that creates mythically deeper blacks in certain HDMI cables.
 

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