Will the addition of a power amp to an integrated amp improve things?

[Stuart83]

Hi again.
Being bitten by the hifi bug recently I'm now looking at the possibility of adding a power amp into my system to enhance its quality.
I've looked into the main reasons if doing this as to add headroom and speaker inputs and it's also mentioned it can improve the sound quality.

I'm doing the usual and looking for a perfect system which I know doesn't exist but is it an option anybody has ran with.

I was looking at adding either an acram FMJ P35 Power Amplifier or pa410 to an existing sa30 as a guy briefly mentioned on another site his sound was vastly improved by doing so.

Having said I already like the acram sa30 sound as I journeyed through a few amps to get there but im still at the stage of looking for improvement.

I went the subwoofer route only recently just to end up leaving it to gather dust not finding anything to my liking.

I enjoy music so much but always seem to switch it off thinking something could be enhanced.
The room I'm in is a real weak point that's a given but I'd like to hear if this is something that should be done or just avoided.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I suspect there's no easy way of trying before you commit. I had an A32 to which I added a P35 and it definitely changed the sound for the better. I now run a pre/power combo, but the top of Musical Fidelity's amp tree has always been an integrated, so as they say, 'go figure'. I think you'd notice improvements, but I doubt you'd find them transformative.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Looks like a £350 experiment (via e-Bay) and if you don't like it, assume a c.£50 cost of resale etc. So, is it worth treating the bite for £50?

 

[abacus]

You don't say what speakers you are using but unless they are a really difficult load or the room is big, adding a power amp probably won't give you much improvement.
Go onto YouTube and find some videos of how to set up a subwoofer (You should find one that suits your circumstances), then bring the subwoofer back into play, you will then find that once set up correctly for your room, the sound will be transformed more than adding any power amp. (If low end is a problem in a room, then a correctly set up subwoofer will fix 99.9% of the problems)

Bill

 

[twinkletoes]

Hi again.
Being bitten by the hifi bug recently I'm now looking at the possibility of adding a power amp into my system to enhance its quality.
I've looked into the main reasons if doing this as to add headroom and speaker inputs and it's also mentioned it can improve the sound quality.

I'm doing the usual and looking for a perfect system which I know doesn't exist but is it an option anybody has ran with.

I was looking at adding either an acram FMJ P35 Power Amplifier or pa410 to an existing sa30 as a guy briefly mentioned on another site his sound was vastly improved by doing so.

Having said I already like the acram sa30 sound as I journeyed through a few amps to get there but im still at the stage of looking for improvement.

I went the subwoofer route only recently just to end up leaving it to gather dust not finding anything to my liking.

I enjoy music so much but always seem to switch it off thinking something could be enhanced.
The room I'm in is a real weak point that's a given but I'd like to hear if this is something that should be done or just avoided.

In my experience with naim in the past I added a power amp to a unit 2 and in all honesty it didn't really add anything, the speakers (revel m106) where better controlled at higher volumes but the naim house sound persisted in that I mean they sounded the same.

This is the real crux , it will purely depend on how difficult you're speakers are to drive, if there pretty easy ill doubt you'll notice anything without some very very carful listening.

In my road cycling/TT circles this would be very much referred to as a "marginal gain" at best, something akin to shaving your legs and not (3-5watts if anybody is interested).

If i've learn't anything over the years is never listen to a person that says this and that made a massive change, especially electronic wise. The biggest change will be to your wallet!

A subwoofer should have added something a lot of something, but! They are very difficult to integrate into stereo systems that have no high pass and delay settings, it has to be done manually and your room may just not big enough to make those adjustments. Mine isn't/wasn't so I haven't been able to successfully add one.

If you want to make a massive change, speakers are the only way to do this. Everything else is just marmalade, marzipan and icing.

 

[Stuart83]

You don't say what speakers you are using but unless they are a really difficult load or the room is big, adding a power amp probably won't give you much improvement.
Go onto YouTube and find some videos of how to set up a subwoofer (You should find one that suits your circumstances), then bring the subwoofer back into play, you will then find that once set up correctly for your room, the sound will be transformed more than adding any power amp. (If low end is a problem in a room, then a correctly set up subwoofer will fix 99.9% of the problems)

Bill

I'm using q acoustics 3050i now but originally the speakers were mission 763i followed by a model favourite of mine the mx3 , after trying 2 subwoofers and keeping hold of the wharfdale SW 150 it being the best.

It's set up correct and in the right place etc, even subjecting myself to "the subwoofer crawl" and I'm just not a fan.

I much prefer the speakers alone for music.
I've always preferred 2 channel hifi and find it a more balanced accurate representation of the music.
The additional sub woofer IMO over exaggerates and "muddies" the sound even when running it almost seemless which kinda makes it irrelevant to the addition.

Afterall it's personal preference but I do understand like everything hifi they do have to be set up correct.

Maybe if I bother setting the acram sa30 up to the TV one day via HDMI it might add to the movies sfx and validate the purchase 😀

 

[twinkletoes]

I'm using q acoustics 3050i and have tried 2 subwoofers and kept hold of the wharfdale SW 150 it being the best.

It's set up correct and in the right place etc, even subjecting myself to "the subwoofer crawl" and I'm just not a fan.

I much prefer the speakers alone for music.
I've always preferred 2 channel hifi and find it a more balanced accurate representation of the music.
The additional sub woofer IMO over exaggerates and "muddies" the sound.
Afterall it's personal preference but I do understand like everything hifi they do have to be set up correct.

Maybe if I bother setting the acram sa30 up to the TV one day via HDMI it might add to the movies sfx.

if it muddies the sound, sorry fella its not set up right not to put a to finer point on it. You should barely even know its on when done right.

The crawl test doesn't work when you have no delay settings within the amp. The sub has to stay on the same plain as the speakers pretty much next to one or the other or slap bang between the speakers or you're adding delay which will lead to a muddy sound.

An extreme example would be putting it behind the sofa, the sub's sound will reach you before the speakers sound does. An AVR can adjust for this, i haven't come across and stereo integrated that can. Unless its one of the those 2 channel AVR's like Arcam very own sr 250 (thin that was the model number).

 

[aversaurus]

I tried adding a roksan power amplifier to my roksan amp at one time .it did alter the sound but not by much and I preferred the integrated on it's own .

 

[nopiano]

Hi again.
Being bitten by the hifi bug recently I'm now looking at the possibility of adding a power amp into my system to enhance its quality.
I've looked into the main reasons if doing this as to add headroom and speaker inputs and it's also mentioned it can improve the sound quality.

I'm doing the usual and looking for a perfect system which I know doesn't exist but is it an option anybody has ran with.

I was looking at adding either an acram FMJ P35 Power Amplifier or pa410 to an existing sa30 as a guy briefly mentioned on another site his sound was vastly improved by doing so.

Having said I already like the acram sa30 sound as I journeyed through a few amps to get there but im still at the stage of looking for improvement.

I went the subwoofer route only recently just to end up leaving it to gather dust not finding anything to my liking.

I enjoy music so much but always seem to switch it off thinking something could be enhanced.
The room I'm in is a real weak point that's a given but I'd like to hear if this is something that should be done or just avoided.

In the context of your high sensitivity QA floorstanders I see no point in pursuing a power-amp route at all. If your speakers were 83dB not 90 or whatever they are, and you had a 6m x 9m room then absolutely you might need more headroom.

But I’m afraid you’re barking up the wrong tree. What difference are you seeking, because I’m wondering if different speakers might suit your room better? Those QA - of which I’m a fan - are quite big and rich sounding, but you seem to want something more ‘athletic’ that I’d associate more with say Dali or PMC.

 

[Stuart83]

if it muddies the sound, sorry fella its not set up right not to put a to finer point on it. You should barely even know its on when done right.

The crawl test doesn't work when you have no delay settings within the amp. The sub has to stay on the same plain as the speakers pretty much next to one or the other or slap bang between the speakers or you're adding delay which will lead to a muddy sound.

An extreme example would be putting it behind the sofa, the sub's sound will reach you before the speakers sound does. An AVR can adjust for this, i haven't come across and stereo integrated that can. Unless its one of the those 2 channel AVR's like Arcam very own sr 250 (thin that was the model number).

It's not a set up issue it's the fact of my personal preference.

I'm not a fan of them.
I've fiddled and tried different ones it's just not my bag.
I like the speakers alone.
Maybe it would be better not using the explanotary word "muddy" and just replace it with the words "not for me".

I have indeed got it where I can hardly hear it's addition which to me swerves the point of having it.
I more a fan of the clean balanced sound that 2 channel hifi offers without enhancing bass or lower frequencies.

But thanks regardless as have I not tried one it might of been something worth investigating.

 

[plastic penguin]

It's not a set up issue it's the fact of my personal preference.

I'm not a fan of them.
I've fiddled and tried different ones it's just not my bag.
I like the speakers alone.
Maybe it would be better not using the explanotary word "muddy" and just replace it with the words "not for me".

I have indeed got it where I can hardly hear it's addition which to me swerves the point of having it.
I more a fan of the clean balanced sound that 2 channel hifi offers without enhancing bass or lower frequencies.

But thanks regardless as have I not tried one it might of been something worth investigating.

Having experimented with power amps connected to my old Arcam, I would suggest the improvement would be minimal at best.

The best way is to buy a dedicated pre/power system. Bear in mind a integrated has a power amp built in so to improve significantly on that you would have to spend fortunes.

 

[DougK1]

It's not a set up issue it's the fact of my personal preference.

I'm not a fan of them.
I've fiddled and tried different ones it's just not my bag.
I like the speakers alone.
Maybe it would be better not using the explanotary word "muddy" and just replace it with the words "not for me".

I have indeed got it where I can hardly hear it's addition which to me swerves the point of having it.
I more a fan of the clean balanced sound that 2 channel hifi offers without enhancing bass or lower frequencies.

But thanks regardless as have I not tried one it might of been something worth investigating.

Many on forums rave about the inclusion of sub(s) in 2-channel, an equal amount try it and don't like it. It appears seamless integration is the key but too many are unsuccessful achieving this. I'm of the opinion that if you feel the need for a sub in 2-channel then you've bought the wrong speakers for your room.

I adore my speakers as they suit my room better than any other speakers I've owned. Recently, however, I was looking at the possible addition of a pair of subs. The perfect fit would have been the Harbeth Nelson's as they are designed to integrate perfectly, but the thought of spending over £3K has put me off, plus I've successfully eradicated bass-boom and never want it to return.

As for a power amp, I explored the idea some time ago but just got a better integrated in the end.

 

[podknocker]

I totally agree. If you get the right speakers, you shouldn't need a sub. Adding more bass to a modest sized room is going to cause issues, unless you are one of those people really into bass and massive explosions in films. Integration of a sub is easy these days with DSP and offloading the bass to a sub is useful, as it takes the bass burden from the main speakers and reduces the load on the amp driving them, but you need a very large room for these lower registers to 'fit' without honking and droning sounds. This site is useful:

Small Room Bass Problems – Acoustic Fields

All small rooms have low-frequency or "bass" problems. It is the result of a combination of the wrong widths, lengths, and heights. There are certain ratios

www.acousticfields.com

 

[twinkletoes]

It's not a set up issue it's the fact of my personal preference.

I'm not a fan of them.
I've fiddled and tried different ones it's just not my bag.
I like the speakers alone.
Maybe it would be better not using the explanotary word "muddy" and just replace it with the words "not for me".

I have indeed got it where I can hardly hear it's addition which to me swerves the point of having it.
I more a fan of the clean balanced sound that 2 channel hifi offers without enhancing bass or lower frequencies.

But thanks regardless as have I not tried one it might of been something worth investigating.

any way, a sub is not what you were asking about, what is it you feel you're missing from you sound that you're not currently getting? a sub purchase or 2 would suggest fullness? maybe

 

[twinkletoes]

I totally agree. If you get the right speakers, you shouldn't need a sub. Adding more bass to a modest sized room is going to cause issues, unless you are one of those people really into bass and massive explosions in films. Integration of a sub is easy these days with DSP and offloading the bass to a sub is useful, as it takes the bass burden from the main speakers and reduces the load on the amp driving them, but you need a very large room for these lower registers to 'fit' without honking and droning sounds. This site is useful:

Small Room Bass Problems – Acoustic Fields

All small rooms have low-frequency or "bass" problems. It is the result of a combination of the wrong widths, lengths, and heights. There are certain ratios

www.acousticfields.com

OP doesn't have an AVR so no high pass so no burden removal.

 

[Dom]

My speakers go down to 40Hz which is absolutely fine for music.

If you want some low end grunt for movies then I would buy speakers meant for that.

 

[Stuart83]

In the context of your high sensitivity QA floorstanders I see no point in pursuing a power-amp route at all. If your speakers were 83dB not 90 or whatever they are, and you had a 6m x 9m room then absolutely you might need more headroom.

But I’m afraid you’re barking up the wrong tree. What difference are you seeking, because I’m wondering if different speakers might suit your room better? Those QA - of which I’m a fan - are quite big and rich sounding, but you seem to want something more ‘athletic’ that I’d associate more with say Dali or PMC.

It seems I've been a victim of falling for the old Google search on the matter.

I like the QA and demoed a few to get to that decision but I'm still looking for that little bit more.
I suppose I'm just like everybody else that respect especially with peoples passion for hifi.

I know a sub woofer isn't for me despite making sure it's both integrated and placed right, I still prefer the speakers alone.
I do sometimes flick it on when venturing back to club music or the digital mixer, other than that I find myself almost subconsciously switching it back off.

As you probably know from prior posts and comments I've started building this main hifi only recently and had a long journey including a few demoes and 2 other owned amps to find a modern equivalent of an old pioneer a400 (which I still have).

I tried to better an old Marantz cd52 mk2 which in the end I swapped back into its position of main player with the modern equivalent the 6007 that replaced it after first repairing the edject mechanism wheel.
I have hung onto the 6007 regardless for my second hifi as I did need another cd player regardless but the 6007 was intended as the upgrade.

I've updated an existing system deck iix with a goldring e3 cartridge and full service as I already know imo there's not much better out there within that budget and it has a sentimental value.

I stayed with ifizen for Bluetooth connectivity knowing from past experience that they are very good I saw no reason to upgrade.

I really like the acram sa30 after as mentioned going through the motions to get to that choice.
So having said all that
"Why am I looking to change things?"
I Suppose I'm too just looking to improve on things which seems to be a way of life for audiofiles.

I now like to ask advice from people such as yourself and other forum users first to gather a further insight into the possibility of further improvements.

I know a few have said the combo of the acram sa30 and fmj-p35 give better sound but holistically the subject seems to point to the addition of a power amp not giving any noticeable improvement.

It's similar to the valve amp adoration I have now despite never hearing one I simply need to experience it myself.
However despite being u nsure about the power amp theory, I am sure I want to hear a valve amp and for some reason assume I will like one (that's another subject) as no one has successfully explaned to me what the difference is apart from distortion.

 

[twinkletoes]

Doesn't the Arcam SA30 have Dirac correction?

I stand corrected ! sorry about that. One would assume it has high pass filtering well I d hope so

 

[landco]

Hi again.
Being bitten by the hifi bug recently I'm now looking at the possibility of adding a power amp into my system to enhance its quality.

In 99% of the cases, in a typical home, a separate power amplifier does not give any benefits, you just spend free money. Reasons of bad sound are most often in an unprepared room and in ignorance of the basics of working with equalizer, which is used to correct the shortcomings of your room

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Nice to know that someone has heard 100 setups where a power amp has been added to no avail...

 

[podknocker]

My Audiolab Omnia has it all in 1 box, but I do think keeping power amp parts away from sensitive pre amp circuits, will offer a better sound, at a price of course. Monoblocs take this a step further and will guarantee 100% channel separation and reduce interference even further. These issues are not as pronounced with the Class D amps though.

 

[landco]

Monoblocs take this a step further and will guarantee 100% channel separation and reduce interference even further.

The separation of channels is marketing. In the laboratory the difference is seen, in practice, with blind listening no difference. Another useless purchase

 

[Oxfordian]

Hi again.
Being bitten by the hifi bug recently I'm now looking at the possibility of adding a power amp into my system to enhance its quality.
I've looked into the main reasons if doing this as to add headroom and speaker inputs and it's also mentioned it can improve the sound quality.

I'm doing the usual and looking for a perfect system which I know doesn't exist but is it an option anybody has ran with.

I was looking at adding either an acram FMJ P35 Power Amplifier or pa410 to an existing sa30 as a guy briefly mentioned on another site his sound was vastly improved by doing so.

Having said I already like the acram sa30 sound as I journeyed through a few amps to get there but im still at the stage of looking for improvement.

I went the subwoofer route only recently just to end up leaving it to gather dust not finding anything to my liking.

I enjoy music so much but always seem to switch it off thinking something could be enhanced.
The room I'm in is a real weak point that's a given but I'd like to hear if this is something that should be done or just avoided.

The search for perceived perfection afflicts me as well, it is both fun and frustrating in equal measure.

Like you the idea of a pre/power combination to improve control within the system appeals to me, many will say that a good integrated is all you need (and they could well be right) but I like the idea of a the potential flexibility that a well sorted pre/power combo gives.

I have also been looking at improving the power supply to each unit as this may also improve sound, but I am also aware that I may be chasing a minute improvement in sound at a considerable cost so lots of research required before I contemplate this route.

My HiFi store has been keen on me having a subwoofer for some time but at the moment I don't think that it is necessary, I would rather spend the money on more music.

The more I get into the wonderful world of HiFi the more I realise that there are some viable routes to sound improvement to follow and some to avoid at all costs, I also understand that I am unlikely to be alone on my journey and that others are able to offer help and suggestions.

Keep the thread up to date with your findings as I for one am interested in how you get on.

 

[podknocker]

The separation of channels is marketing. In the laboratory the difference is seen, in practice, with blind listening no difference. Another useless purchase

I think lab results, at some point, determine the ultimate sound quality. Reducing EMR/RFI/noise etc. will have a bearing on the sound produced. Having many parts and circuits sharing a common power supply, will not be as clean as using separate ones.

 

[Oxfordian]

Everything else is just marmalade, marzipan and icing.

I like all these things but together.........?