Why no Harbeth review on WHF?

[steve_1979]

Any idea how much the PMC Actives cost?

Their active range starts with the PMC twotwo.5 which costs £3300 per pair.

That seems a bit expensive for a pair of two-way 5.5" active monitors IMO.

 

[krolikgena]

Any idea how much the PMC Actives cost?

Active DB1S £2190: http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/pmc-pmc-db1s-a-mkii-pair-active-studio-monitors--68372

These, from memory, are powered passives.

Right, those are passive powered. like my larger TB2S-AII.

the smallest one with active crossover is AML2 - £8,100.00

Refreshing :beer:

 

[steve_1979]

Their top of the range active speakers are the humongous PMC BB5XBD-A which cost £26,000 per pair. Very 8) if you have a big room to fill.

I'm not sure if the six Bryson amplifiers and active crossovers cost extra though? :?

 

[krolikgena]

 

[steve_1979]

the smallest one with active crossover is AML2 - £8,100.00

Until recently the AML2 were PMC's cheapest proper active speakers but now they've released the new 'budget' active monitors the twotwo.5 and the twotwo.6 which cost £3300 and £4200 per pair.

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree with that Your mention wasn't intended as a pop at you, simply because you are one of the most frequent posters and you proffer a lot of reasonable (passive) choices. Unlike PP, I don't think I've seen you have an ideological anti-active reaction when a reasonable active alternative is being suggested.

I completely know that, but wanted to clarify why I seldom mention Actives.......except occasionly in passing.

If I had a motto, it would be "Live and let live".

If Linn is representative, their Active version is (imo) much better than their Passive version + Linn amp........but I wouldn't like to extrapolate that a different passive system from a different brand at similar money, wouldn't be better.

 

[Singslinger]

I'm wondering how a thread about Harbeths not being featured in WHF has morphed into an actives vs passives debate. :quest: :?

 

[Macspur]

I'm wondering how a thread about Harbeths not being featured in WHF has morphed into an actives vs passives debate. :quest: :?

I know... quite frankly it's becoming boring.

Mac

 

[Overdose]

I'm wondering how a thread about Harbeths not being featured in WHF has morphed into an actives vs passives debate. :quest: :?

I know... quite frankly it's becoming boring.

Mac

Not so boring that you couldn't resist reading or posting about it though.

 

[Sospri]

Mac is correct, it is boring.

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

They would not have to rely on the almost manic outbursts from their clan and to hijack any thread that mensions a speaker that is not part of their tribe.

I personally will stick with the systems that I can tweak and change as I require, .................

 

[relocated]

Mac is correct, it is boring.

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

They would not have to rely on the almost manic outbursts from their clan and to hijack any thread that mensions a speaker that is not part of their tribe.

I personally will stick with the systems that I can tweak and change as I require, .................

And here we have a perfect example of needless and, to the poster, demeaning nonsense. You just make yourself look foolish.

As to how we have got here from Harbeth well conversations just move around a bit in normal life so why not on here? WHF don't appear to want to give a reason for no reviews of Harbeth, so if things move around so be it. Just like your tv etc., you don't have to join in, you can move to another channel or turn off completely.

:cheers:

 

[relocated]

I think this is the point. Personal choice is great, but it is preferable for the individual making the choice that it be an informed choice. If your average punter buys a random issue of WHF it will probably not even mention active speakers, despite their engineering advantages. If they post a thread on here and PP, Cno and David @ FrankH reply to it, they'll probably only hear about passive options. They may demo a few speakers and pick the ones they prefer (and may post again in 6 months time thinking of upgrading their amp / cables / black ravioli because the system is too bright or boomy or whatever). They would have exercised personal choice, but it might be that they had they been informed of the active choice they would have found a product that was even better for them than their passive choice.

I think that is reasonably fair.

I tend to talk about what I know about., as the only active speakers that I've heard have been very expensive ones from Linn and Meridian. The "passive brigade" seldom get the thread to themselves, which is fine by me......as my only goal is for the person looking for help to get the best possible solution.

I think your comment about "informed choice" is very relevent, so the advice given by either side, needs to be fair, respectful, accurate, unbiased and free of dogma.

You are right on the money there.

I write about what I know, if only other people did the same then this forum would be a much better resource than it is currently.

It is a shame that a number of people just can not contribute anything positive, they seek only to destroy and disrupt conversations and ridicule people who hold a different view.

We could learn so much more from each other if only we could keep the ranters away. ray:

 

[Craig M.]

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

I see, so as well as the sect, PMC are lying/deluded too? It's exactly this kind of ignorance that leads to people posting factually correct information regarding the superiority of good active designs.

 

[Overdose]

Mac is correct, it is boring.

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

They would not have to rely on the almost manic outbursts from their clan and to hijack any thread that mensions a speaker that is not part of their tribe.

I personally will stick with the systems that I can tweak and change as I require, .................

More people are buying actives and manufacturers are wiseing up to the fact, as evidenced by a growing number of new active products in the market.

Active systems can be changed as easily as passive ones (it's only money right?) and the use of digital EQ in modern systems can make this as easy as a flick of a switch rather than some equipment swapping epic and the cost that it entails. In fact you can change as many times as you like without effort using EQ.

If you cannot find satisfaction and contentment in your equipment, then 'tweaking' is your destiny.

 

[Sospri]

Aha, I thought that would bring the sect out.

I liken it to when your out for a evening meal abroard, walking along a street of restaurants.

I would never partonise a restaurants with a loudmourted tout outside trying to drag you inside for a less than satisfactory meal.

No, the best restaurants never have touts, they don't need to, THEY SELL THEMSELVES.....................

 

[altruistic.lemon]

People might be buying more actives, but that's to hang of their computers on their desk or to drop their iphones into. You'd probably find that active sales outside this and the professional market haven't risen much at all, partly because they are not suited to Home Cinema which contributes to a lot of sales.

The PMC take is correct, in that they stress a top quality active system will always beat a top quality passive system, but there are an awful lot of below average systems around, and there is a high proce to pay for good actives. If you take the big three in domestic hifi as being Dynaudio, B&O and ATC, there isn't that much readily available. Obviously there is AVI, but I'm guessing their market share is tiny compared to the others. Given that the brands mentioned are not especially cheap, you are stuck for choice. Yes, there are the pro speakers, but these aren't ideal for home, in that their voicing, and their looks, don't really endear themselves to the sitting room.

The other problem is flexibility. You need a preamp if you want the inputs commonly required - phono, TV, computer/streamer, CD player, Blue Ray and turntable. Don't think there's any active with a built-in preamp that has that many inputs, so you're not saving on boxes, though you are doubling up on cables.

I'm inclined to think that passives are going to continue to be around for a long, long time. Apart from the fact they're not as flawed as some would like to make out, if you buy active speakers then decide you don't like the voicing, you have to change everything. That doesn't come cheaply.

 

[chebby]

They would not have to rely on the almost manic outbursts from their clan and to hijack any thread that mensions a speaker that is not part of their tribe.

You are describing a very small group of people who represent one very small company making only two active speaker systems. They are hardly representative of the entire market. Of that small group only a very few actively try to cause trouble.

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

They do.

Active speakers are made by ATC, Dynaudio, PMC, Meridian, Bang & Olufsen, Genelec, KEF, Bowers & Wilkins, Acoustic Energy, Yamaha, Focal, Tannoy, Linn, M-Audio, Naim .... etc. etc...

...and many more companies I haven't listed because they aren't that well known here, or I haven't remembered them, or aren't distributed in the UK or are far more well known in the pro audio world, or brands that have only just started in the field of active systems (like Moos Audio).

I wouldn't get hung up on the behaviour of a tiny number of 'noisy' enthusiasts (for one company) out of the huge numbers of (often very well-known) manufacturers who have been making active systems (pro and domestic) for anything between 30+ years and last week.

What is new (or at least recent) is the demand from a generation of people who grew up with computer based music, PC speakers, MP3 players, headphones, smartphones etc. and are now getting to an age when they can afford serious, quality audio.

They won't - on the whole - want to get into seperates because it has never been on their 'radar' and they wouldn't have any time (or room) for racks of components like their dads and grandads enjoyed.

I personally will stick with the systems that I can tweak and change as I require...

Sounds good, except that demand for those systems is disappearing at an alarming rate (along with the dealers who sell them). It follows that the number of companies serving traditional, seperates hi-fi needs will either die out with most of their stock (and customers eventually), or will adapt to the world of the 'all-one-one' boxes like B&W A7s and other compact, high quality, computer based, active systems that don't make unwelcome demands on space or accessories (cables and other fiff-faff), and are 'tweak free'. (Tweaking ultimately means you got the wrong system or the system is failing you.)

Some active fare is still designed for the studio and/or teenage boy's bedroom 'aesthetic' but there is a significant trend towards domestically acceptable equivalents from both traditional hi-fi companies and the pro sector.

 

[Electro]

Harbeth used to sell an active version of the Harbeth Xpression DPM1 :shifty: :silenced:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan99/articles/hhbcircles5.753.htm

 

[relocated]

People might be buying more actives, but that's to hang of their computers on their desk or to drop their iphones into. You'd probably find that active sales outside this and the professional market haven't risen much at all, partly because they are not suited to Home Cinema which contributes to a lot of sales.

The PMC take is correct, in that they stress a top quality passive system will always beat a top quality passive system, but there are an awful lot of below average systems around, and there is a high proce to pay for good actives. If you take the big three in domestic hifi as being Dynaudio, B&O and ATC, there isn't that much readily available. Obviously there is AVI, but I'm guessing their market share is tiny compared to the others. Given that the brands mentioned are not especially cheap, you are stuck for choice. Yes, there are the pro speakers, but these aren't ideal for home, in that their voicing, and their looks, don't really endear themselves to the sitting room.

The other problem is flexibility. You need a preamp if you want the inputs commonly required - phono, TV, computer/streamer, CD player, Blue Ray and turntable. Don't think there's any active with a built-in preamp that has that many inputs, so you're not saving on boxes, though you are doubling up on cables.

I'm inclined to think that passives are going to continue to be around for a long, long time. Apart from the fact they're not as flawed as some would like to make out, if you buy active speakers then decide you don't like the voicing, you have to change everything. That doesn't come cheaply.

I can't edit that for you but I'm sure you would like to.

The AVI ADM 40 has 4 digital [optical] and 2 analogue [stereo] inputs so can accomodate a great deal of sources. Not cheap though, before anyone chimes in.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

No, can't edit, too late. Such is life, as Ned was reputed to have said.

 

[Sospri]

They would not have to rely on the almost manic outbursts from their clan and to hijack any thread that mensions a speaker that is not part of their tribe.

You are describing a very small group of people who represent one very small company making only two active speaker systems. They are hardly representative of the entire market. Of that small group only a very few actively try to cause trouble.

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

They do.

Active speakers are made by ATC, Dynaudio, PMC, Meridian, Bang & Olufsen, Genelec, KEF, Bowers & Wilkins, Acoustic Energy, Yamaha, Focal, Tannoy, Linn, M-Audio, Naim .... etc. etc...

...and many more companies I haven't listed because they aren't that well known here, or I haven't remembered them, or aren't distributed in the UK or are far more well known in the pro audio world, or brands that have only just started in the field of active systems (like Moos Audio).

I wouldn't get hung up on the behaviour of a tiny number of 'noisy' enthusiasts (for one company) out of the huge numbers of (often very well-known) manufacturers who have been making active systems (pro and domestic) for anything between 30+ years and last week.

What is new (or at least recent) is the demand from a generation of people who grew up with computer based music, PC speakers, MP3 players, headphones, smartphones etc. and are now getting to an age when they can afford serious, quality audio.

They won't - on the whole - want to get into seperates because it has never been on their 'radar' and they wouldn't have any time (or room) for racks of components like their dads and grandads enjoyed.

I personally will stick with the systems that I can tweak and change as I require...

Sounds good, except that demand for those systems is disappearing at an alarming rate (along with the dealers who sell them). It follows that the number of companies serving traditional, seperates hi-fi needs will either die out with most of their stock (and customers eventually), or will adapt to the world of the 'all-one-one' boxes like B&W A7s and other compact, high quality, computer based, active systems that don't make unwelcome demands on space or accessories (cables and other fiff-faff), and are 'tweak free'. (Tweaking ultimately means you got the wrong system or the system is failing you.)

Some active fare is still designed for the studio and/or teenage boy's bedroom 'aesthetic' but there is a significant trend towards domestically acceptable equivalents from both traditional hi-fi companies and the pro sector.

chebby,

You have a rather annoying habit of quoting peoples posts out of context, I have never said that all actives products are inferior to passives.

my main complaint is that a number of posters will rant on about AVI mainly as soon as any kind of passive speaker mensioned,

As for tweaking *I have not changed my system for a few years now but I have the option to do so if i wish.

If memory serves me right you had a good turntable in your system befors you decided ( or was decided for you ) to reduce your boxes, can't see that

fitting into a speaker box...................

 

[John Duncan]

No, can't edit, too late. Such is life, as Ned was reputed to have said.

I fixed it for you.

 

[Overdose]

They would not have to rely on the almost manic outbursts from their clan and to hijack any thread that mensions a speaker that is not part of their tribe.

You are describing a very small group of people who represent one very small company making only two active speaker systems. They are hardly representative of the entire market. Of that small group only a very few actively try to cause trouble.

From a personal point of veiw, I think that if actives were as good as some of the sect say they would sell themselves.

They do.

Active speakers are made by ATC, Dynaudio, PMC, Meridian, Bang & Olufsen, Genelec, KEF, Bowers & Wilkins, Acoustic Energy, Yamaha, Focal, Tannoy, Linn, M-Audio, Naim .... etc. etc...

...and many more companies I haven't listed because they aren't that well known here, or I haven't remembered them, or aren't distributed in the UK or are far more well known in the pro audio world, or brands that have only just started in the field of active systems (like Moos Audio).

I wouldn't get hung up on the behaviour of a tiny number of 'noisy' enthusiasts (for one company) out of the huge numbers of (often very well-known) manufacturers who have been making active systems (pro and domestic) for anything between 30+ years and last week.

What is new (or at least recent) is the demand from a generation of people who grew up with computer based music, PC speakers, MP3 players, headphones, smartphones etc. and are now getting to an age when they can afford serious, quality audio.

They won't - on the whole - want to get into seperates because it has never been on their 'radar' and they wouldn't have any time (or room) for racks of components like their dads and grandads enjoyed.

I personally will stick with the systems that I can tweak and change as I require...

Sounds good, except that demand for those systems is disappearing at an alarming rate (along with the dealers who sell them). It follows that the number of companies serving traditional, seperates hi-fi needs will either die out with most of their stock (and customers eventually), or will adapt to the world of the 'all-one-one' boxes like B&W A7s and other compact, high quality, computer based, active systems that don't make unwelcome demands on space or accessories (cables and other fiff-faff), and are 'tweak free'. (Tweaking ultimately means you got the wrong system or the system is failing you.)

Some active fare is still designed for the studio and/or teenage boy's bedroom 'aesthetic' but there is a significant trend towards domestically acceptable equivalents from both traditional hi-fi companies and the pro sector.

+1. Nice post.

Are you bored too?

 

[Overdose]

my main complaint is that a number of posters will rant on about AVI mainly as soon as any kind of passive speaker mensioned,

In fairness, the ranting usually comes from the anti AVI perspective. Pro AVI usually just recommend the product and then the 'fun' begins.

Perhaps in the interests of balance, someone could list all of the active speakers that have an acceptable traditional hifi look.

In addition, ones that perhaps could be used as an entire system, so include preamp and DAC.

Budget up to £2K to give a bit of slack.

When the list is compiled, have a look at and give consideration to, any shortcomings between the products and then it might be obvious why ADMs are recommended so much.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

That would be the new Kefs, but they're too cheap, the Dynaudio XEOS, again cheap but allow you to use your own DAC/CD player/turntable etc, the new Genelecs with DSP - might be more, don't know the price, the B&W desktops, and those speakers from an obscure company somewhere in Gloucestershire