Where have all the HiFi members gone?

[davedotco]

So the conclusions are? Do we have the ultimate system?

Everything but the speakers.

Hiya Vlad

So, which amp should we all be buying?

From my viewpoint, most of us don't actually want accurate, in the total sense. If we did, we'd all be buying the same kit, wouldn't we? (budgets allowing, of course).

Not necessarily.

Reproducing music in your home is, to all intents, impossible. Roomsize, volume levels, dynamics, bandwidth and no doubt other factors that I have not thought of come into play.

For me, deep bass in a small room is unnerving, it simply sounds wrong, unnatural I think, similarly live concert levels are inappropriate in most domestic environments so the enthusiast chooses which set of compromises works for him.

Some of them are obvious enough, but some less so.

How do you come to terms with the situation that some kinds of distortion in domestlic level playback, mimics the distortion produced by the ears during the high spls of a real performance, and makes the recorded music sound more 'real'?

Is that a good thing or not? Will the 'effect' work consistanly across different genres of music? Should you train yourself to accept that undistorted music is more accurate despite the fact that it sounds less real than with added distortion?

Should you even care.......?

 

[Freddy58]

Not necessarily.

Reproducing music in your home is, to all intents, impossible. Roomsize, volume levels, dynamics, bandwidth and no doubt other factors that I have not thought of come into play.

For me, deep bass in a small room is unnerving, it simply sounds wrong, unnatural I think, similarly live concert levels are inappropriate in most domestic environments so the enthusiast chooses which set of compromises works for him.

Some of them are obvious enough, but some less so.

How do you come to terms with the situation that some kinds of distortion in domestlic level playback, mimics the distortion produced by the ears during the high spls of a real performance, and makes the recorded music sound more 'real'?

Is that a good thing or not? Will the 'effect' work consistanly across different genres of music? Should you train yourself to accept that undistorted music is more accurate despite the fact that it sounds less real than with added distortion?

Should you even care.......?

Hiya Dave.

I suppose when someone says "accurate", I find it hard to come to terms with. Personally, what I want from my system is a pleasurable listening experience, not absolute accuracy, whatever that is. I'm pretty confident that's what most people want. No-one goes into a HiFi store and says "I want the most accurate system you got for £x" *smile* I'm probably naive...

 

[Vladimir]

Depends on the speakers Freddy. *biggrin*

 

[Vladimir]

Hiya Dave.

I suppose when someone says "accurate", I find it hard to come to terms with. Personally, what I want from my system is a pleasurable listening experience, not absolute accuracy, whatever that is. I'm pretty confident that's what most people want. No-one goes into a HiFi store and says "I want the most accurate system you got for £x" *smile* I'm probably naive...

Accuracy does not imply just revealing details (resolution), but also dynamic scale, SPL, stereo imaging etc. If you system is loud, exciting, energetic and still sounds clean, present with 3D imaging and revealing to the point you hear all harmonics from a drum stick hitting a tom-tom or piano wire being hammered, your system is being accurate, or (here's that dreaded word) High Fidelity.

The whole point of High Fidelity and 'accuracy' is to get you closer to the music, make you enjoy more. If you get frustrated in the process of achieving this goal, best to just give up instead of continuing blindfolded and guided by magazine reviews and forum people shouting marko! polo! It takes knowledge, learning the science part to serve you as a compass.

 

[Covenanter]

Not necessarily.

Reproducing music in your home is, to all intents, impossible. Roomsize, volume levels, dynamics, bandwidth and no doubt other factors that I have not thought of come into play.

For me, deep bass in a small room is unnerving, it simply sounds wrong, unnatural I think, similarly live concert levels are inappropriate in most domestic environments so the enthusiast chooses which set of compromises works for him.

Some of them are obvious enough, but some less so.

How do you come to terms with the situation that some kinds of distortion in domestlic level playback, mimics the distortion produced by the ears during the high spls of a real performance, and makes the recorded music sound more 'real'?

Is that a good thing or not? Will the 'effect' work consistanly across different genres of music? Should you train yourself to accept that undistorted music is more accurate despite the fact that it sounds less real than with added distortion?

Should you even care.......?

Hiya Dave.

I suppose when someone says "accurate", I find it hard to come to terms with. Personally, what I want from my system is a pleasurable listening experience, not absolute accuracy, whatever that is. I'm pretty confident that's what most people want. No-one goes into a HiFi store and says "I want the most accurate system you got for £x" *smile* I'm probably naive...

Accurate to me means not a precise reproduction of a concert hall experience but something that creates an illusion that I can believe in. There is some true accuracy involved, instruments should sound like the original as should voices, but as Vlad say you can't recreate the total sound. As I type this I am listening to Brahms but the washing machine is going, the computer fan is whirring, there is traffic outside and the volume is some fraction of concert hall levels or my neighbours would be knocking my door down. Still the piano sounds like a piano and I can tune out the extraneous noise. If I close my eyes I can kid myself I'm in a concert hall. That's accurate!

Chris

 

[Esra]

It is much easier to live with hifi if you accept for yourself that it will be never be like the real thing.So much senses influence us ,what we feel,hear,see and also smell when we are at concert.It is impossible for a system to simulate this whole emotional experience and it seems more impossible if you want "get real" with all kind of music.That´s what i think.

.It´s all about emotion and there are many ways to be happy and enjoying your system,accuracy is only a piece in the puzzle.

That´s why we can talk so much about hifi,otherwise we would have all the same stuff if there would be "The ultimate System".

 

[relocated]

My original post was somewhat 'tongue in cheek' but if you think that WHF staff are falling over themselves for the opportunity to talk online to 'civilians' then you have a very odd view on how such organisations work.

'Civilians'? What nonsense is this?

I just thought they might be sufficiently interested in their subject and the opinions of their readers and members of the community they host to get involved.

But no, you're right: such contempt for one's customers, from magazines to retailers, is what has made hi-fi the healthy, thriving industry it is today.

You do know they have a magazine to run right? You seem to think they have hours each day to sit around talking on forums, that's pretty idiotic.

Andrew Everard always managed to find the time.

And is he part of WHF any more?

I certainly don't expect staff to be on here a lot of the time. But, as the site has been somewhat screwed, compared to how it used to be, I do find it very sad that senior staff will not find the time to let us know what is going on with improving this site.

Could not a small piece be written up every couple of weeks[?], to let us know the most recent improvements and what's next in line? I don't bother looking on my [original] iPad Mini any more because the 'product' I receive is so *rap. That may now be an outdated situation but we don't hear from Andy, or anyone else, to let us know when things have changed. Time is found to wash away critical posts that injure certain sensibilities, why not use that time to 'take it on the chin' and give a decent, honest appraisal of where we are and where we are going?

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

You do know they have a magazine to run right? You seem to think they have hours each day to sit around talking on forums, that's pretty idiotic.

Well, they seem to have plenty of time to sit around writing news articles robbed from elsewhere on the internet, pointless top ten lists and then best of the lists and best of the best of the lists and best of the week and best of the middle of the week and so on.

I kind of got the impression they were serious about this website at one point, not that it was just something they did in idle moments between producing the magazine, but maybe I was wrong.

 

[Vladimir]

WHF staff wont enjoy coming here with all the persistant criciticism, whining and insults from the forum members. I have never seen so many people complaining about a service (this website) which they are getting free and voluntarily. *scratch_one-s_head* If Mac can persist to use this website despite all the new upgrade issues, I have no excuse for others, including myself.

A more stoic attitude can only help the forum karma. If you really need to vent, why not open a cable debate?

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

WHF staff wont enjoy coming here with all the persistant criciticism, whining and insults from the forum members.

Absolutely: best the poor lambs ignore it, and continue to view themselves as being above such things. *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[Al ears]

WHF staff wont enjoy coming here with all the persistant criciticism, whining and insults from the forum members. I have never seen so many people complaining about a service (this website) which they are getting free and voluntarily. *scratch_one-s_head* If Mac can persist to use this website despite all the new upgrade issues, I have no excuse for others, including myself.

A more stoic attitude can only help the forum karma. If you really need to vent, why not open a cable debate?

Vlad, you forgot to add 'on another forum'.....

 

[Vladimir]

WHF staff wont enjoy coming here with all the persistant criciticism, whining and insults from the forum members. I have never seen so many people complaining about a service (this website) which they are getting free and voluntarily. *scratch_one-s_head* If Mac can persist to use this website despite all the new upgrade issues, I have no excuse for others, including myself.

A more stoic attitude can only help the forum karma. If you really need to vent, why not open a cable debate?

Vlad, you forgot to add 'on another forum'.....

Already implied. *pleasantry*

 

[Covenanter]

Just to say that Andrew still writes excellent reviews for "Gramophone". They have nothing like the range of what we see here of course but neither do they have the purple prose.

There's an interesting HiFi forum on the Gramophone site too. A certain Matthewpiano has been known to post there. The forum software works too rofl.

Without knocking Haymarket, Gramophone is 100% better since leaving the stable. I even bought a subscription!

Chris

 

[matt49]

Just to say that Andrew still writes excellent reviews for "Gramophone". They have nothing like the range of what we see here of course but neither do they have the purple prose.

There's an interesting HiFi forum on the Gramophone site too. A certain Matthewpiano has been known to post there. The forum software works too rofl.

Without knocking Haymarket, Gramophone is 100% better since leaving the stable. I even bought a subscription!

Chris

Fair comment, though it's worth adding that, whilst there's some overlap, Gramophone's readership is somewhat different from WHF's, though of course that doesn't excuse the shortcomings of the WHF forum software.

 

[spiny norman]

Just to say that Andrew still writes excellent reviews for "Gramophone".  They have nothing like the range of what we see here of course but neither do they have the purple prose. 

Noticed the other day he's also writing for Hi-Fi News, and he's been writing for Hi-Fi Critic, too.

There's an interesting HiFi forum on the Gramophone site too.  A certain Matthewpiano has been known to post there.  The forum software works too rofl.

Isn't the forum software Gramophone uses the same one this site used to use before things were 'improved'? ie bog-standard 'free on a cornflake packet' Drupal or whatever?

 

[Covenanter]

Isn't the forum software Gramophone uses the same one this site used to use before things were 'improved'? ie bog-standard 'free on a cornflake packet' Drupal or whatever?

Not sure. The Gramophone forum was down for a long time after they took over and I can't remember what it used to look like. It's simple and it works!

Chris

 

[spiny norman]

It's simple and it works!

Ah yes, that's the one.

 

[Andy Clough]

That may now be an outdated situation but we don't hear from Andy, or anyone else, to let us know when things have changed. Time is found to wash away critical posts that injure certain sensibilities, why not use that time to 'take it on the chin' and give a decent, honest appraisal of where we are and where we are going?

Perfectly happy to take it on the chin relocated, as always

The reason I haven't commented is because there has been nothing to report. The situation is this: Haymarket has one, centralised dev team running all the Drupal sites (What Hi-Fi?, Stuff.tv, Autocar, FourFourTwo) and right now they are flat out migrating Autocar and Stuff.tv to Drupal 7. That is the current priority.

What this means, in reality, is that there will be no further upgrades to the site before Christmas. Frustrating, I know, but my hands are tied.

 

[Andy Clough]

Well, they seem to have plenty of time to sit around writing news articles robbed from elsewhere on the internet, pointless top ten lists and then best of the lists and best of the best of the lists and best of the week and best of the middle of the week and so on.

I kind of got the impression they were serious about this website at one point, not that it was just something they did in idle moments between producing the magazine, but maybe I was wrong.

Just for the record, those "pointless" Top 10/Best Buy lists typically attract more than 100,000 page views a month, whereas a traditional news story such as "manufacturer X launches product Y" might get 1000-2000 page views a month. It seems an awful lot of people find what we do quite useful.

 

[John Duncan]

Isn't the forum software Gramophone uses the same one this site used to use before things were 'improved'? ie bog-standard 'free on a cornflake packet' Drupal or whatever?

It is; I see that Gram has upgraded to Drupal 7 as well since they moved off the premises. Although of course Open Source doesn't necessarily mean free, as my last two projects will attest...

I see even .NET has gone open source now :-o

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

Just for the record, those "pointless" Top 10/Best Buy lists typically attract more than 100,000 page views a month, whereas a traditional news story such as "manufacturer X launches product Y" might get 1000-2000 page views a month.

Thanks for confirming what has long been suspected. I'm sure the advertisers are very happy.

 

[The_Lhc]

Just for the record, those "pointless" Top 10/Best Buy lists typically attract more than 100,000 page views a month, whereas a traditional news story such as "manufacturer X launches product Y" might get 1000-2000 page views a month.

Thanks for confirming what has long been suspected. I'm sure the advertisers are very happy.

Who do you think pays for all this?

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Just for the record, those "pointless" Top 10/Best Buy lists typically attract more than 100,000 page views a month, whereas a traditional news story such as "manufacturer X launches product Y" might get 1000-2000 page views a month.

Thanks for confirming what has long been suspected. I'm sure the advertisers are very happy.

Who do you think pays for all this?

Santa Claus? *smile*

 

[Andy Clough]

Just for the record, those "pointless" Top 10/Best Buy lists typically attract more than 100,000 page views a month, whereas a traditional news story such as "manufacturer X launches product Y" might get 1000-2000 page views a month.

Thanks for confirming what has long been suspected. I'm sure the advertisers are very happy.

As are lots of readers, as those numbers also confirm. And yes, we do have to serve our advertisers too - this is a commercial site that depends on ad revenues to fund it. That's why it's free to use. Otherwise we'd have to charge readers a subscription, and I can well imagine the howls of protest if we did that.

 

[matthewpiano]

Gramophone and WHFS&V are very different animals. The former can only work if it maintains the high standards and depth for which it built its reputation, but this is always going to attract an audience which is too small for a company like Haymarket. The magazine is much better for being free of Haymarket and I am sure that, with more profitable titles to focus on, Haymarket are glad to be free of the responsibility. Even then, Gramophone will have a fight on its hands for real long-term survival. I've been a subscriber for years and will continue to be for as long as it continues, but I fear it won't last forever.

Making WHFS&V more of a specialist hi-fi magazine would immediately and massively reduce its audience to the point where Haymarket would probably do what Future Publishing did with Hi-Fi Choice - wash its hands of it. Given the circulation of the other titles like HFC, HFW and HFN&RR now, where would WHFS&V go? Would anyone actually be interested in keeping it going as 'What Hi-Fi?'. I doubt it. I also suspect that WHFS&V has a much more positive impact on the hi-fi market than it gets credit for. If dealers and manufacturers weren't getting the exposure and sales for the mainstream products, where would their more specialist ones be? The mainstream lines subsidise the development of the more expensive products which will sell in far lower numbers. I also wouldn't be surprised if a reasonable number of people who buy WHFS&V to read about a new TV, mobile phone, or soundbar got pulled in by a budget amp review or an award for some talented budget speakers. A good number of new people must come to at least some level of interest in hi-fi in this way.