When should actives be recommended?

[relocated]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

Totally agree, Why do you have to be so nasty !!!

I am absolutely not being nasty to David, so I hope that settles you down a little bit.

Things get addressed to David because he works in hifi/av retail and tells things from his angle. His angle and general retail conduct sometimes don't align with my experience as a consumer generally and specifically with the Coventry hifi shop where he works and so I express my opinions and experience. You may wish to align your thinking to Davids, so be it. Having a different opinion doesn't make you unpleasant, just contradictory.

You might have noticed, if you have read what I have said, that I think David should be congratulated for putting a retail point of view. You may have noticed that AVI owners come in for much more unpleasantness, though tthankfully not as mind-numbingly bad as it used to be, and so I can understand his, at times, siege mentality along with his like-minded individuals.

Anyway I look forward to your criticism of AVI detracters, in the future, when they argue as softly against AVI as I have David. :wave:

 

[Sospri]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[The_Lhc]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

Totally agree, Why do you have to be so nasty !!!

I am absolutely not being nasty to David, so I hope that settles you down a little bit.

I'm misunderstood as well...

 

[avexplorer]

I do. I just can't see how me trying to give some info from the other side of the fence is going to give me a bad rep.

Now that we have a testimony of the ethos, pathos and logos prevalent in the 'other side' (dealers), I suppose it would be naive of the ‘active brigade’ to hope that this would change in a hurry. No matter how good a product or technology is, all of it would pass as water under the bridge with obviously the alibi being 'catering to the masses demand to stay in business'. Now whether it is the masses demand or vested motives that are the cause of this apathy (at best, if not antipathy) towards actives can be debated endlessly with no tangible outcome that would help the cause of raising awareness of potentially better alternatives to what ‘the masses’ already know.

In all my visits, down 40 years, to dealers and shows I have never had the principal or product of actives put to me. That isn't your fault, it is just the way it is. Hopefully that is changing and in my view that will be to the benefit of consumers, provided the sort performance versus price ratio I experience in AVI products is common place. As I am given to understand is the case in Pro-Audio emporia.

When the dealer friend of mine, from whom I had bought my current home theatre gear, learnt from me that I am seriously considering the Event Opals for my 2 channel setup, he admonished the idea almost with disdain and said, “I would never recommend active monitors to my clients”. But I wasn’t someone to let go that easily. So I invited him to do a shootout with what he considered were his best monitors with the Opals. I also asked him what in the Opals was he so un-approving of. Was it because they were actives or was it because they were studio monitors? I guess he kind of sniffed the trap in that question and chose not to answer. He did not agree with the shootout deal either. I tried this with dealers of most passive speakers in my city. None obliged

Now coming back, I would assume that this archaic mind-set against actives is a common knowledge to most manufacturers. Therefore, it would be rather prudent of them to adopt a selling strategy that does not involve the hi-fi dealers at all. They should either go directly to the customers by setting up dedicated hi-fi / home theatre experience centres much like the way B&O and Meridian’s have been doing it. To that end they can encourage their own pro dealers to open experience boutiques for home users as well. In my experience, most pro-dealers are far more technically competent to ‘sell sound’ than any hi-fi dealer that I have seen. That is mostly because, pro dealers are so used to talking to the ‘knowledgeable’ buyers, who would not take BS as answers, that convincing the ‘masses’ should be a walk in the park for them.

Not just selling, I guess their solution will have much better bang for the buck which would be for the customers to experience themselves

Have you tried any actives other than AVI? If so, did they also eclipse the sound of all the passive systems you've heard?

I was on a mission to build a hi-fi setup for my study / home office with the ProAc Response D2’s (see my thread if you will). That was until I experienced the Event Opals

 

[relocated]

Now for me that sound was suddenly there, in spades, when I went active and purchased the AVI ADM 9T. The difference in quality was shocking, it eclipsed other gear that I had owned, my friends had owned or that I had demo'd or auditioned. It cost [just] £1100 for an entire system, except for source, and since then I have shared my experience with others on here. I share my experience not to wind anyone up but because I learnt of AVI here when the absolute favourite sport was to attack anyone with the temerity to explain their move to active/AVI.

Have you tried any actives other than AVI?

If so, did they also eclipse the sound of all the passive systems you've heard?

Thinking back I could well have heard actives, in 40 years I have done a fair few shows and listened to a lot of gear. Nothing has ever stood out [and I genuinely mean shockingly out] like when I got my AVI ADM 9Ts. The only thing I have listened to since their purchase has been, if you discount the hugely increased number of hours of music, the AVI ADM 40 floorstanders.

For over a year I haven't wondered what this tweak or twiddle might do to their performance and I haven't had the slightest inclination to go to another show or go for a shop demo. Straight up, they produced the sound that made me not want to try different cables, mains things, magic stones or whatever other aftermarket products will "make your stereo sound better". For me that is a monumental change. I had always been into 'tweakery' and it had consumed plenty of money and I still thought there could be something better out there.

The AVI ADM 40s take things to another level but actually do not diminish the merits of the 9Ts. In fact they show, even more, just how good they are and what spectacular VFM they were.

This will be very boring to some but, I only recommend AVI ADMs because I have the experience of ownership and 40 years of knowing the passive way and a miriad of products both affordable and not. I don't recommend things I have no ownership experience of.

Based on my experience and reading technical appraisal by people more knowledgeable than me, I believe that a properly applied active design will outperform a properly applied passive speaker. People may disagree courtesy of their listening experience but that, in strict fact and accuracy terms, is Canute-ism and for me is a shame for them because they cut themselves off from possibly a better way for them.

What I have never understood on this Forum, is the anxiety experienced and expressed by non AVI owners about AVI owners expressing their enthusiasm for a product they own. To everyone out there, THERE IS NO AVI CONSPIRACY, ASHLEY DOES NOT CONTROL US, WE DO NOT DO HIS BIDDING.

Hellfire, I've blathered on, I hope you are still awake and if you have any questions I hope you will reply.

Cheers,

Relocated

 

[relocated]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

Totally agree, Why do you have to be so nasty !!!

I am absolutely not being nasty to David, so I hope that settles you down a little bit.

I'm misunderstood as well...

:rofl: I have often thought that LHC. :O

 

[char_lotte]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

Totally agree, Why do you have to be so nasty !!!

I am absolutely not being nasty to David, so I hope that settles you down a little bit.

I'm misunderstood as well...

.......bless....

 

[Native_bon]

To my mind there are two main groups of AV system buyers.

Those for whom movies and music is the raison de etre for the systems purchase and existence in the home, and where the owner wants a fiddle free, high quality plug and play solution.

Active systems are likely to be in the buying sights of such consumers

Then there are those, who whilst they like music, like to tinker with the product most, if not all the time - kind of a grown up lego or Mecanno set for boys. It's a very valid hobby, and for that kind of consumer, active will never cut it, as it removes the twiddle and tweak factor.

All other things being equal, active is technically better than passive - it's an engineering fact - but nonetheless is not likely to interest the second group for the reasons mentioned, nor will it likely be promoted by current retail HiFi sales chains, as an active system cuts out a lot of repeat business, and bread and butter sales such as cables, stands, racks, 'foo' acccessories etc.

It really comes down to what you want out of a system IMHO.

JMac

There is a third group.....those who simply put the love of music first and work back from there. They don't give a fiddler's f**k about the technology that allows this, as long as the music is realistic, emotional, passionate, believable, and with the intention of the musicians coming across as intact as possible.

A box swop is never "just for the sake of it", but a very considered decision, where an immediately noticable, worthwhile improvement to the portrayal of the music is the result. This bit of kit is then likely to remain in-situ for many years.

Yes most people like to Swop & change boxes looking for the sound they prefer.. But how easy is it to get your music to sound the way u want it first time round. How many times on this forum have we heard of people not satisfied with their system.. Due to not having a shop that sells a particular product or due to other reasons could not audition the product..

Actives are most likely to make that choice easier. Also, what is the ratio or percentage of mixing and mtaching to put the right hifi seperate system together. 1 in3, 1in 10, or may be 1 in 20?.. Hifi is like a religion.. everyone thinks there religion is the right one..

Actives are made to work together... Alll the problems of midrange, bass, & treble & the whole frequency range not working together is eliminated.

The Old school dude, of preconceptions of what hifi should look like or sound like or what goes with what has not got a place in the 21 century...

Passive or active if it sounds good to me am in.

 

[Ajani]

Now for me that sound was suddenly there, in spades, when I went active and purchased the AVI ADM 9T. The difference in quality was shocking, it eclipsed other gear that I had owned, my friends had owned or that I had demo'd or auditioned. It cost [just] £1100 for an entire system, except for source, and since then I have shared my experience with others on here. I share my experience not to wind anyone up but because I learnt of AVI here when the absolute favourite sport was to attack anyone with the temerity to explain their move to active/AVI.

Have you tried any actives other than AVI?

If so, did they also eclipse the sound of all the passive systems you've heard?

Thinking back I could well have heard actives, in 40 years I have done a fair few shows and listened to a lot of gear. Nothing has ever stood out [and I genuinely mean shockingly out] like when I got my AVI ADM 9Ts. The only thing I have listened to since their purchase has been, if you discount the hugely increased number of hours of music, the AVI ADM 40 floorstanders.

For over a year I haven't wondered what this tweak or twiddle might do to their performance and I haven't had the slightest inclination to go to another show or go for a shop demo. Straight up, they produced the sound that made me not want to try different cables, mains things, magic stones or whatever other aftermarket products will "make your stereo sound better". For me that is a monumental change. I had always been into 'tweakery' and it had consumed plenty of money and I still thought there could be something better out there.

The AVI ADM 40s take things to another level but actually do not diminish the merits of the 9Ts. In fact they show, even more, just how good they are and what spectacular VFM they were.

This will be very boring to some but, I only recommend AVI ADMs because I have the experience of ownership and 40 years of knowing the passive way and a miriad of products both affordable and not. I don't recommend things I have no ownership experience of.

Based on my experience and reading technical appraisal by people more knowledgeable than me, I believe that a properly applied active design will outperform a properly applied passive speaker. People may disagree courtesy of their listening experience but that, in strict fact and accuracy terms, is Canute-ism and for me is a shame for them because they cut themselves off from possibly a better way for them.

What I have never understood on this Forum, is the anxiety experienced and expressed by non AVI owners about AVI owners expressing their enthusiasm for a product they own. To everyone out there, THERE IS NO AVI CONSPIRACY, ASHLEY DOES NOT CONTROL US, WE DO NOT DO HIS BIDDING.

Hellfire, I've blathered on, I hope you are still awake and if you have any questions I hope you will reply.

Cheers,

Relocated

I think that like many other persons, you're really a fan of AVI products and not active speakers in general. I don't doubt that AVI makes great products, as they have many satisfied consumers. However, that doesn't mean that in general actives are better than passives. Yes AVI makes a lot of claims as if the problem with HiFi is the lack of active speakers, but that really is not the case. AVI products sounding good to you is not the same as active speakers sound good.

You can't just swap out KRK, Mackie, Focal, Dynaudio, Genelec, Event, M-Audio and Adam and expect them to sound the same or even similar. All of those brands have received critical and consumer acclaim for their pro-monitors, yet if you check out a pro audio forum you will see the same hifi style bickering about which one sounds great and which sounds rolled off, bright, muddy etc.

Even if all HiFi manufacturers went active, there would still be arguing on these forums about what products to buy. Persons would still want to upgrade from their Rega or Nad actives to Naim or B&W actives. People would still argue about Whether a soft dome active is better than one with a metallic tweeter.

IMO, you just need to listen to what you can and find the product that best suits your needs.

 

[Craig M.]

However, that doesn't mean that in general actives are better than passives.

If all things are equal then I disagree, watch the PMC video for the basics. If you're comparing apples with oranges, then I agree.

Otherwise I agree with all you just wrote.

 

[WishTree]

The AVI ADM 40s take things to another level but actually do not diminish the merits of the 9Ts. In fact they show, even more, just how good they are and what spectacular VFM they were.

This will be very boring to some but, I only recommend AVI ADMs because I have the experience of ownership and 40 years of knowing the passive way and a miriad of products both affordable and not. I don't recommend things I have no ownership experience of.

Based on my experience and reading technical appraisal by people more knowledgeable than me, I believe that a properly applied active design will outperform a properly applied passive speaker. People may disagree courtesy of their listening experience but that, in strict fact and accuracy terms, is Canute-ism and for me is a shame for them because they cut themselves off from possibly a better way for them.

What I have never understood on this Forum, is the anxiety experienced and expressed by non AVI owners about AVI owners expressing their enthusiasm for a product they own. To everyone out there, THERE IS NO AVI CONSPIRACY, ASHLEY DOES NOT CONTROL US, WE DO NOT DO HIS BIDDING.

You seem to be genuinely in love with the sound and upgrade in SQ AVI speakers has to offer and hence you are very enthusiastic in recommending them. Which is completely understandable.

Just out of curiosity, do you think it will be possible for you to have a listen out for Event Opal speakers at your next possible opportunity and if so, it would be really nice to read your views on the comparision notes.

I am not asking this to prove any point but I have a feeling that there might be comparable solutions on the offer along with AVI and possibly better sound. Your listening to the other active speakers, does not have to stem out from the point of upgrade but could be curiosity too and a bit of spare time, if you can.

Normally one would have heard other active speakers on the offer before buying ADM 40s even upgrading from the 9s but some times a brand's charm could blind us from seeing the other possibilities.

 

[BenLaw]

However, that doesn't mean that in general actives are better than passives.

If all things are equal then I disagree, watch the PMC video for the basics. If you're comparing apples with oranges, then I agree.

Otherwise I agree with all you just wrote.

Though perhaps also worth adding that ajani's conclusion about relocated liking AVIs rather than actives generally is not applicable to all who post on here recommending actives. Off the top of my head, you, AlmaataKZ and steve1979 have listened to a variety of actives and consider that the theoretical advantages translate into real sonic advantages.

 

[Craig M.]

True, the ones I've heard have all had, to a greater or lesser extent, what I now think of as the active midrange clarity. I haven't heard any stinkers, but I'm sure they exist.

 

[Ajani]

However, that doesn't mean that in general actives are better than passives.

If all things are equal then I disagree, watch the PMC video for the basics. If you're comparing apples with oranges, then I agree.

Otherwise I agree with all you just wrote.

Actually, we are in agreement. I was talking about comparing Apples to Oranges, example comparing say a Musical Fidelity/Monitor Audio passive setup to a similarly priced set of actives from Focal or Genelec. We can't just assume that because one is active then it must be better.

If we were comparing that passive MF/MA system versus an active version of the exact same setup, then I would expect the active to have the advantage (whether it would translate to a very obvious sonic advantage is open to debate).

 

[BigH]

Why not use the AE 22s which are available in both passive and active versions?

 

[Ajani]

Why not use the AE 22s which are available in both passive and active versions?

Does Acoustic Energy sell the amp from the active version seperately? If so, then you could compare the results of the Passive and Active versions. If they don't have the amp available, then it's stil not an apples to apples comparison as the one could argue that any difference is due to a better amp being used for either the passive or active version.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

This whole active/passive thing is pure hokum. No-one's been willing to say it, though the OP has come close, but this is about AVI shilling or spamming, whatever the word is, this forum. Obviously not everybody, but certainly at least three or 4 acolytes. The point is not about the theoretical advantages about active over passive, which is rather less than is claimed, but about pushing the AVI name as far as possible.

Shame, really, since AVI did produce good speakers and never needed this type of marketing.

 

[Craig M.]

Why not use the AE 22s which are available in both passive and active versions?

Does Acoustic Energy sell the amp from the active version seperately? If so, then you could compare the results of the Passive and Active versions. If they don't have the amp available, then it's stil not an apples to apples comparison as the one could argue that any difference is due to a better amp being used for either the passive or active version.

I'm sure AEJim has posted his thoughts on an active and passive version of one of their speakers before, but I don't think it was the AE22. I seem to remember a passive and Naim Supernait being worse than an active version of the same speaker that cost a helluva lot less than the passive combo. Maybe he'll see this and chip in. I remember a long standing member of the forum, who doesn't like mention of actives, thought he was lying about it. :doh:

 

[steve_1979]

Why not use the AE 22s which are available in both passive and active versions?

Does Acoustic Energy sell the amp from the active version seperately? If so, then you could compare the results of the Passive and Active versions. If they don't have the amp available, then it's stil not an apples to apples comparison as the one could argue that any difference is due to a better amp being used for either the passive or active version.

The active version has two separate amplifiers in each speaker - one which is optimised for the mid/bass driver and one which is optimised for the tweeter.

The passive version only needs one amplifier for each speaker so it would need to be a different design to the pair of amplifiers that are used in the active version.

 

[JMacMan]

This whole active/passive thing is pure hokum. No-one's been willing to say it, though the OP has come close, but this is about AVI shilling or spamming, whatever the word is, this forum. Obviously not everybody, but certainly at least three or 4 acolytes. The point is not about the theoretical advantages about active over passive, which is rather less than is claimed, but about pushing the AVI name as far as possible.

Shame, really, since AVI did produce good speakers and never needed this type of marketing.

Heheh, you would've loved living through the whole Linn/Naim Flat Earth/PRaT thing; makes AVI's behaviour seem like little angels...

I speak from personal experience as a Naim owner from being on the receiving end of some of the nastiest, rudest, most spiteful and patronising arrogance I've ever experienced from both fanbois and manufacturer alike of the Flat Earth/Prat philsophy, when one so much as dared to question it.

As enthusiasts it's easy to think that we all have the 'closest approach to the original sound' as the HiFi goal, and that it is also what the manufacturer is aiming for; in reality, it's a commercial business first and foremost, and the sound can and often is, tweaked whichever way to give a unique 'flavour' and USP in the market.

For some companies, unfortunately the original tenet of HiFi "the closest approach to the original sound", has give way to creating the most exciting or impressive sound 'flavour' that will sell.

Companies will also play all sorts of dirty tricks and politics to maintain there market share and gain sales - it's a commercial business after all.

If AVI are doing anything 'wrong', I can assure you they are not the first to set a precedent in this regard - it is nice though, and deserving of respect IMHO, that their design ethos, along with companies like Meridian and B&O, is still that seeming rarity in HiFi these days; "the closest approach to the original sound".

JMac

 

[the record spot]

In all my visits, down 40 years, to dealers and shows I have never had the principal or product of actives put to me. That isn't your fault, it is just the way it is. Hopefully that is changing and in my view that will be to the benefit of consumers, provided the sort performance versus price ratio I experience in AVI products is common place. As I am given to understand is the case in Pro-Audio emporia.

And traditionally, actives were and still are, the preserve of the music producer for the most part, either in a major facility, or a more modest setting. Active manufacturers don't even pitch themselves at the domestic market, so it's not just the consumer audio sector you could ask questions of if that's what you're getting at.

Of course, not all actives are created the same, and not all consumers want actives. Horses for courses. But it's AVI and it's owners that make the most noise - some of it best left unheard.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

What happens when you don't want or like the presentation of an active speaker (valves, class A etc). Is an active design still technically better? Surely not to everyone. There has been quite a few claims from either side of the debate that this is the case...............Just a thought :?

 

[chebby]

What happens when you don't want or like the presentation of an active speaker...

You sit in the corner, facing the wall, and reflect on your wrongdoing.

 

[BenLaw]

What happens when you don't want or like the presentation of an active speaker (valves, class A etc). Is an active design still technically better? Surely not to everyone. There has been quite a few claims from either side of the debate that this is the case...............Just a thought :?

There are a few options to adapt the sound in any event. Choose an active speaker with class A amplification such as ATC. Use tubes upstream in your source or pre-amplification. Or use EQ if there's a particular frequency response you like.

The simpler answer to your question though is that taste is subjective and you buy what you like to listen to. If you've listened to a few actives and don't like them then you're not missing out, they're just not for you.

 

[Alec]

What happens when you don't want or like the presentation of an active speaker...

You sit in the corner, facing the wall, and reflect on your wrongdoing.

Darn tootin' straight ya do! Who ever heard of such a thing?!