When should actives be recommended?

[CnoEvil]

Retailers are here to give the customer what they wwant. It's up to manufacturers marketing etc to make a product and increase awareness.

If or when things change, I'd expect them to adapt.

It would be very noble for them to fall on their swords and only stock what they think people should buy, but not good for business.

Agreed.

There have been a few posters recently who seemed very happy with the service they got from F.Harvey.......and the fact they are keeping head above water in a recession, where people are cutting back on things like Hifi/AV, says a lot.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Congratulations David, you have dressed the exhausted model answer up in new words. Do you suppose for one minute that this enhances your reputation? :wall:

I don't give a monkeys. The active brigade might be doing this for reputation - I'm not.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm not a dealer but I was in business for a long time and David's argument looks sound to me.

Chris

Thank you Chris (and RS), but the active brigade won't see it that way.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

I'm getting used to it.

The stupid thing is, if you take a step back and look at it with a fresh pair of specs, this isn't an active vs passive thing. It's about AVI, their methods of promotion, their and their followers/customers treatment of others, and their rubbishing of anything that isn't AVI.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There have been a few posters recently who seemed very happy with the service they got from F.Harvey.......and the fact they are keeping head above water in a recession, where people are cutting back on things like Hifi/AV, says a lot.

We're not just keeping our heads above water, we're expanding. A new website soon, many new brands added for online sales, more staff for the website/office, and we'll also be stocking vinyl. Yes, there's a demand for vinyl. Like I say, if there's demand there, it will be met.

 

[CnoEvil]

We're not just keeping our heads above water, we're expanding. A new website soon, many new brands added for online sales, more staff for the website/office, and we'll also be stocking vinyl.

Glad to hear it.

Like I say, if there's demand there, it will be met.

Valves? :shifty:

 

[Frank Harvey]

Valves? :shifty:

There seems to be less demand for valves than active speakers...

 

[CnoEvil]

Valves? :shifty:

There seems to be less demand for valves than active speakers...

Don't equate less noise with less demand. :shhh:

 

[richardw42]

David. Everybody is a potential customer. I have bought from you.

Do you really think your attitude will endear your company to those who've had a go at you or even some casual onlookers.

I think as a dealer you've got a certain kudos on here, purely down to the amount of varied stuff you hear. You're letting yourself down.

 

[fr0g]

Valves? :shifty:

There seems to be less demand for valves than active speakers...

Encouraging.

It's a bit like saying there is more demand for LED lighting than candles though.

 

[Ajani]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

I'm getting used to it.

The stupid thing is, if you take a step back and look at it with a fresh pair of specs, this isn't an active vs passive thing. It's about AVI, their methods of promotion, their and their followers/customers treatment of others, and their rubbishing of anything that isn't AVI.

I agree. I think the issue is not really actives vs passives. Besides most of the persons pushing AVI never recommend any other actives (I wonder how many have tried other actives).

IMO, the problem (not unique to AVI fans btw - I've seen it countless times on other forums with Audio Note, Magnepan, Emotiva, DIY, etc) is that often when persons come across an excellent product that meets their sonic needs, they start to believe all the marketing of the manufacturer. So if I buy an ADM9 and love it, I assume that the rest of the claims AVI makes are the real deal. Hell, even AVI doesn't believe all passive are inferior crap or else they would have discontinued the Neutron 5 the moment the ADM9 was released, rather than continuing to sell it for several years.

If you focus solely on the idea that good hifi must be active, or speakers must be plannars or only SET amps sound good, then you close your mind to other products that you might really enjoy if you gave them the chance.

 

[Ajani]

David. Everybody is a potential customer. I have bought from you.

Do you really think your attitude will endear your company to those who've had a go at you or even some casual onlookers.

I think as a dealer you've got a certain kudos on here, purely down to the amount of varied stuff you hear. You're letting yourself down.

I really have to disagree. His points seem for the most part well reasoned. If I was in the UK I would willingly buy from his store. IMO, it seems that he is regularly attacked just because he is a dealer (and somehow dealers are the enemy).

 

[Frank Harvey]

David. Everybody is a potential customer. I have bought from you.

I agree, everyone is a potential customer. But you can't cater for everyone. You can cater to the masses and stay in business, or you can cater for extremely small minority groups and pray to get enough business to stay afloat.

Do you really think your attitude will endear your company to those who've had a go at you or even some casual onlookers.

I think as a dealer you've got a certain kudos on here, purely down to the amount of varied stuff you hear. You're letting yourself down.

And exactly how would you describe my attitude at the moment? I'm trying to give you some insight here from this side of the fence - it's all very easy to say how you want things to be. Reality usually gets in the way.

I agree, everyone is a potential customer. But you can't cater for everyone. You can cater to the masses and stay in business, or you can cater for extremely small minority groups and pray to get enough business to stay afloat. Small businesses that want to stay small can offer the latter, but it tends to come at a higher price.

 

[JMacMan]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

I'm getting used to it.

The stupid thing is, if you take a step back and look at it with a fresh pair of specs, this isn't an active vs passive thing. It's about AVI, their methods of promotion, their and their followers/customers treatment of others, and their rubbishing of anything that isn't AVI.

I sincerely hope you haven't felt that of me in the passive vs active debate - please note I am not an AVI owner, - and whilst I support active technology as a way forward for the music and movie lover interested in high quality, plug and play, fiddle free performance, I have no plans to purchase any AVI products in the future either.

I've been told by one AVI owner that the ADM40's are an advance on my B&O Lab 9's, basically due the allegedly superior drivers; - notwithstanding that the person who stated this also mentioned that he'd never heard the Lab 9's, - and with no measurements or controlled listening test evidence to back his claim, and with his outright dismissal of other aspects of the BeoLab 9 design, one just sees it as enthusiam and pride of ownership of what is undoubtedly a great product, leading to statements being made that need to be kept in perspective.

Conversely, I'm not going to tell you that an B&O Lab 9 is a superior speaker to an AVI ADM40, as I don't have the comparitive comprehensive measurements or a ABX blind test result to back up any such statement, and accordingly would therefore not make such a statement.

Indeed, anecdotal comment would lead me to believe the AVI ADM40 is a very find loudspeaker indeed, quite possibly bettering a Lab 9 in some aspects of performance - but without in-depth measurements and controlled listening tests, who can really say? Certainly I endeavour to be very mindful of peoples feelings, and respect their choices, and not make statements about how my active speaker is better than your active speaker type rubbish, as it's just offensive and without supporting factual and in-depth evidence, (not anecdotal or 'informed' comment) relatively meaningless IMHO.

However, as an owner who wanted an integrated AV solution for music and movies to a level of performance in the highest echelons, and meanwhile offering the minimal box count possible, a stunning visual aesthetic, and with peerless R&D behind it, the Lab 9's became my ultimate choice. That is not to say that other active speaker manufacturers such as Meridian, AVI, PMC etc don't offer similar high performance solutions - I'm sure they do.

But at the end of the day it's a silly argument - I'm happy to choose between a Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc, as they are all very fine motor vehicles, and I'd much prefer any of those (funds permitting) over a General Motors HSV product, fully kitted out in semi race trim etc, and I could make some arguments as to the engineering refinement and depth of detail of the others over the GMH product.

But if you prefer a BMW to a Mercedes, or vice versa, there's no argument from me; the quality and overall design and engineerng integrity is very similar, and one could be happy with either. To argue otherwise is just silly IMHO & E.

However, my argument for the active speaker/system, is, as I've tried to outline in previous posts; an option for the end user/consumer who really doesn't want to find himself going back to a dealer for upgrades, re cables, racks, power supplies, a 'new' and 'better'?? amplifier etc, and hence for such a customer, a preferable option to the passive/separates scenario, which is perhaps more suited to the home hobbyist.

I appreciate, as someone who has also worked retail in HiFi in the past, that this is not an attractive business model for a HiFi retail business; quite possibly why actives are not popular in such emporiums, and it's why I see the mix and match separates business model in time becoming more and more something that is the pursuit of the home sound hobbyist/enthusiast who uses music as a medium for tinkering with the 'sound' of kit as a very valid and interesting hobby.

However, speaking personally as a music lover, and movie buff who wants a very high performance system, and I believe for many others who also love music and movies and have similar performance aims, - and where the need to mix and match and fiddle about to try and gain an optimal performance result is not seen as a desirable experience, - the mixing and matching of separates is simply not the place these days, where I would start to build an AV system in the 21st century; actives can simply do it better, and ultimately in the long run - cheaper, - hence their growing presence in the market IMHO & E.

JMac

 

[Frank Harvey]

Valves? :shifty:

There seems to be less demand for valves than active speakers...

Encouraging.

It's a bit like saying there is more demand for LED lighting than candles though.

Let's suppose we get three people a year ask for valve based amplification. Let's say we decide to cater for these people. We get a valve amp in, maybe even two. Chances are they'll want a brand you haven't got, but due to low demand, you can't keep four or five valve amp manufacturers and their fifteen models to offer a good enough choice just on the offchance that you might sell three in a year. You're going to dedicate that shelf space to a brand or product that is going to sell more frequently. You have to, or die.

Now if there was three people a month, that might be different.

 

[JMacMan]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

I'm getting used to it.

The stupid thing is, if you take a step back and look at it with a fresh pair of specs, this isn't an active vs passive thing. It's about AVI, their methods of promotion, their and their followers/customers treatment of others, and their rubbishing of anything that isn't AVI.

I agree. I think the issue is not really actives vs passives. Besides most of the persons pushing AVI never recommend any other actives (I wonder how many have tried other actives).

IMO, the problem (not unique to AVI fans btw - I've seen it countless times on other forums with Audio Note, Magnepan, Emotiva, DIY, etc) is that often when persons come across an excellent product that meets their sonic needs, they start to believe all the marketing of the manufacturer. So if I buy an ADM9 and love it, I assume that the rest of the claims AVI makes are the real deal. Hell, even AVI doesn't believe all passive are inferior crap or else they would have discontinued the Neutron 5 the moment the ADM9 was released, rather than continuing to sell it for several years.

If you focus solely on the idea that good hifi must be active, or speakers must be plannars or only SET amps sound good, then you close your mind to other products that you might really enjoy if you gave them the chance.

Excellent, and I agree

JMac

 

[Craig M.]

I would guess I'm in the active brigade (do we get a uniform and stuff?), but I thought the gist of Davids post was fair enough. I know from chatting to a mate in a local shop that most people, particularly those fairly new to hifi, arrive with a desire to get the latest award winners. It's exactly what I did the first few times I ventured into a hifi shop. And the mags aren't going to make a big thing of actives if they don't exist. And the manufacturers don't need to make them if the demand isn't there, or they don't have the know-how. And the demand won't be there if they aren't promoted in the mags. Etc. I don't think the shops are going to be clamouring for them though, I'd say the current model of being able to upgrade piece by piece works better for them. If someone walks into a shop and buys a pair of Dynaudio Xeos, it would be a pretty dear undertaking to upgrade them - what would a pair cost based on the Focus or Contour range? You could also argue the manufacturers need to do better with them, the Xeos (imo) do not sound good enough for the money, but to be fair I think that about almost everything I hear nowadays.

I push the active option because it was a genuine revelation to me when I first heard the ADMs against my much more expensive passive setup, and most would say that was very well matched (if you liked that sort of sonic flavour). My Opals wipe the floor with almost anything I've heard in a hifi shop upto really stupid money, and I mean really stupid money. I tend to recommend the ADMs (9s and 40s) because they are probably acceptable in most livingrooms and, to my ears, sound a lot better than the other domesticated actives I've heard - I suspect the Xeos are hamstrung to fit within Dyn's range and marketing as 'lifestyle' speakers. Sure, not everyone will like the actives they hear - there aren't enough different ones and not everyone wants the same sound, I doubt I'dve 'got' the ADMs when I bought my Dyn's, I was too seduced by the big bass on offer. The only time I don't recommend them is when it's obvious from a description of the sound someone is after that they won't fit, or the budget is all wrong. I don't recommend anything on those threads, because if I'm going to waste my time posting on here I may as well waste it on something I believe in. Some people probably get sick of seeing the same stuff posted repeatedly about actives, but it's only repeatedly if you're a regular on here. And if you're new you'll probably discount them out of hand because they don't fit in with what you've read in mags/been told at a dealers, unless someone explains the potential benefits.

 

[Alec]

Actually David, that's how these things tend to get when you enter into them with preconceived idea about whay it'sall about.

Retailers ought to care about reputation as a rule, surely? I tend to like the ones who are helpful when you want to audition stuff, but that's just silly me.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Retailers ought to care about reputation as a rule, surely? I tend to like the ones who are helpful when you want to audition stuff, but that's just silly me.

I do. I just can't see how me trying to give some info from the other side of the fence is going to give me a bad rep. Those that know me may well have a different view to you. And if anyone has ever felt that I haven't been helpful in any way during demos, then they're free to speak up now.

 

[relocated]

Retailers ought to care about reputation as a rule, surely? I tend to like the ones who are helpful when you want to audition stuff, but that's just silly me.

I do. I just can't see how me trying to give some info from the other side of the fence is going to give me a bad rep. Those that know me may well have a different view to you. And if anyone has ever felt that I haven't been helpful in any way during demos, then they're free to speak up now.

Now you come to mention it David, as you know I had a completely pathetic demo experience at your premises in Coventry but you weren't there then but did try to justify/'explain' the unjustifiable even so.

To you and everyone else marching to your support. IT IS NOT PERSONAL. David has the courage, as well as the retail instinct, to put the dealers point of view and takes the flack and I fully appreciate how that is, given the flack AVI owners get. It isn't what it was but some recidivists can't help themselves.

We are all in the same boat, particularly those of us who have been searching for audio nirvana for more than a few years. Many of us have spent so much money on product and tweakery to try to tease out a sound that we are sure AND have been convinced by manufacturers, magazines and dealers [BUT NOT JUST DAVID] is there.

Now for me that sound was suddenly there, in spades, when I went active and purchased the AVI ADM 9T. The difference in quality was shocking, it eclipsed other gear that I had owned, my friends had owned or that I had demo'd or auditioned. It cost [just] £1100 for an entire system, except for source, and since then I have shared my experience with others on here. I share my experience not to wind anyone up but because I learnt of AVI here when the absolute favourite sport was to attack anyone with the temerity to explain their move to active/AVI.

Now that experience sharing may be boring to regulars, particularly with a different view-point, but it isn't aimed at you. It is, for the most part, presented to people who are new to things or who are asking a particular question or for different views. I never picked up on going 'active' from anything in a magazine or dealer or show. The overwhelming pitch of hifi has always been 'passive' and if there is only ever one type of beans advertised and sold then guess what you buy?

For reasons best known to themselves, manufacturers, dealers and Press have kept actives off of purchasers radar. That is now changing and if my experience is anything to go by then it will be a very good thing for very many people. If people are exposed to active sound then I feel sure that it will become the major force in loudspeaker presentation, given time.

In conclusion. I do not dance to anyones tune and there is no conspiracy or direction given or taken by AVI owners when they present their experience of AVI products. Remember that this info is from people who OWN this gear use it regularly/daily and have mostly come to it from an entirely different way. They are not speaking about something they heard in unfamiliar surroundings, for a limited amount of time and from ignorance of other ways of presenting music via loudspeakers.

A little less paranoia and actually reading what is said will gain, a lot of people, a great deal. In the end it is about the music and ENJOYMENT. Relax a little, it's healthy.

:cheers:

 

[Frank Harvey]

For reasons best known to themselves, manufacturers, dealers and Press have kept actives off of purchasers radar.

I disagree that this is all some big conspiracy to stop people buying actives, as is usually suggested. As I say, if more people ask, the range of actives we have in store will grow.

 

[relocated]

For reasons best known to themselves, manufacturers, dealers and Press have kept actives off of purchasers radar.

I disagree that this is all some big conspiracy to stop people buying actives, as is usually suggested. As I say, if more people ask, the range of actives we have in store will grow.

David, your conspiracy idea is not mine. However you want to put it, if consumers are unaware of the existance of something then they can't ask for it.

In all my visits, down 40 years, to dealers and shows I have never had the principal or product of actives put to me. That isn't your fault, it is just the way it is. Hopefully that is changing and in my view that will be to the benefit of consumers, provided the sort performance versus price ratio I experience in AVI products is common place. As I am given to understand is the case in Pro-Audio emporia.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Its supply and demand, before there was not much demand so not many people sold them through consumer outlets.

Now there is more demand so more people sell them through consumer outlets.

There was not much demand as they were not generally offered to consumer outlets, mainly pro-audio, like studio's and the like.

It was not the consumer industry and press covering up the supply, its just not many people made the link between the two markets.

For example, not many people would want a single input active speaker that has two power cables, two signal cables per pair, balanced inputs and designed for nearfield listening on a mixing desk. The market that most 'active' speakers available are intended for.

Newer products have multiple imputs, designed for free-standing use, consumer friendly finished etc so are more widly distributed as they are suited for the intended market, i.e. consumers.

'Active' speakers have been available to the consumer market for a very long time, as have been previously mentioned, its only because their advantages were not sold as a USP, so direct inputs from digital sources, or integrated bass/room managment like a lot of the newer products do.

As I mentioned before, there is no specific reason why to chose one over the other other than it sounds better to you. One approach is not always, and never always better than the other. As others have mentioned as well, there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

[Sospri]

Relocated , your posts towards David are getting a bit unpleasant to be honest.

Totally agree, Why do you have to be so nasty !!!

 

[Ajani]

Now for me that sound was suddenly there, in spades, when I went active and purchased the AVI ADM 9T. The difference in quality was shocking, it eclipsed other gear that I had owned, my friends had owned or that I had demo'd or auditioned. It cost [just] £1100 for an entire system, except for source, and since then I have shared my experience with others on here. I share my experience not to wind anyone up but because I learnt of AVI here when the absolute favourite sport was to attack anyone with the temerity to explain their move to active/AVI.

Have you tried any actives other than AVI?

If so, did they also eclipse the sound of all the passive systems you've heard?