The Heliocentric Worlds Of Sun Ra Volumes 1 and 2. (ESP.) If John Gilmore's tenor didn't influence John Coltrane, I'll eat my head.
John Coltrane-Blue Train
John Coltrane-First Meditations.
Charlie, there was a method in the madness of suggesting that you listen to 'Meditations' and 'First Meditations.' :Meditations' from 1965 I think shows Coltrane exhausting the possibilities of the famous quartet which is still reliant on chords and the harmonic delvelopments that this implies. Similarly, the rhythym and time aspects are conventional but you can hear Coltrane wanting more and feeling hamprered by these sructures, hence the re-recording with different musicians for the release of 'Meditations.' I think this is is a really instructive jazz lesson in itself, a microcosm of what was happening at the time with the development of the avant-garde/ New York jazz scene. After 1965, Coltrane's music become much more free and experimental although his playing remains often lyrical and melodic. Clearly, there's more atonal stuff too. i thought it might help you to decide what period of Trane's music you would focus on. You can hear all of this in Ornette Coleman's Texas blues style but without the piano feeding chords to prompt melody/harmonic development so he's free to go where he wants.
So, anything up to 1965 with the Coltrane quartet, and in my opinion, 1965 is the best year in many ways, is accessible if challenging in its own way. After 1965, it's more avant-garde but equally rewarding. Hope this doesn't come across as patronising; I'm just trying to give you some pointers and these are very much my pointers. Other opinions are available!
John Coltrane-Blue Train
John Coltrane-First Meditations.
Charlie, there was a method in the madness of suggesting that you listen to 'Meditations' and 'First Meditations.' :Meditations' from 1965 I think shows Coltrane exhausting the possibilities of the famous quartet which is still reliant on chords and the harmonic delvelopments that this implies. Similarly, the rhythym and time aspects are conventional but you can hear Coltrane wanting more and feeling hamprered by these sructures, hence the re-recording with different musicians for the release of 'Meditations.' I think this is is a really instructive jazz lesson in itself, a microcosm of what was happening at the time with the development of the avant-garde/ New York jazz scene. After 1965, Coltrane's music become much more free and experimental although his playing remains often lyrical and melodic. Clearly, there's more atonal stuff too. i thought it might help you to decide what period of Trane's music you would focus on. You can hear all of this in Ornette Coleman's Texas blues style but without the piano feeding chords to prompt melody/harmonic development so he's free to go where he wants.
So, anything up to 1965 with the Coltrane quartet, and in my opinion, 1965 is the best year in many ways, is accessible if challenging in its own way. After 1965, it's more avant-garde but equally rewarding. Hope this doesn't come across as patronising; I'm just trying to give you some pointers and these are very much my pointers. Other opinions are available!
stevebrock said:
Go on , you know you want to. Of course you could go for Deadwing (if you can find a copy) but methinks your polly will have yer charlies for earings. Oh hang on a minute , I've found you an unplayed red copy a mere snip at 250 spons or a Black copy for 300 spons. Or you could buy my Red Black and Blue copies at a very special mates rate.£3,000,000 free pp.
Is this the point where some twonk posts 'No Trading'. :roll:
Charlie Jefferson
Well-known member
Jim-W said:
Hi Jim, It's not received as patronising at all, rather it's very informative and interesting. Just to be clear, what came first Meditations or First Meditations? I'm confused. I can make sense though of your delineation of styles, with 1965 as the fulcrum. I'm slightly awry with my chronological approach to listening to the albums via Spotify, but I'm really enjoying this journey into the new.
I like the meeting place between the atonal and the full-bloom medodic playing. It's exhilarating.
Charlie Jefferson said:
If it's not been suggested already then check out Karma by Pharoah Sanders - veers from total freak out to melodic bliss in each track in a really magical way.
That's my take on it anyhows...
Charlie Jefferson
Well-known member
Charlie Jefferson
Well-known member
omnibeard said:
Will do. Know the name, never heard any actual music. Will rectify that tonight. Thanks.
Charlie Jefferson said:BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
It's in my top 38 Fall studio LPs.
That high?
Charlie Jefferson said:
Hi Charlie. OK, 'First Meditations' was recorded first but not released until 1977 on lp and early 1990's on cd I think. 'Meditations' was recorded 3 months after 'First Meditations' and released in 1965. 'First Med' was one of the last recordings with the usual quartet but Coltrane wanted a 'purer' form of expression ie freer and not rooted in Western ideas of chords and time-keeping. Hence McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones left the band and in came polyrhthmic drumming and atonality in the form of Trane and Pharoah Sanders. Rashied Ali was the new drummer, more sympathetic to Coltrane's new needs as a composer and soloist.
Listen to 'Live in Seattle' from 1965 and with the quartet + Pharoah to see how far he'd come-very atonal and violent in places. 1965 is when he really stats to leave conventional forms of expression and structures behind.
The recommendation of 'Karma' is good. It's a brilliant record for the most part but I think it needed a bit of editing; others will disagree. Along with Dewey Redman, Archie Shepp and Gato Barbieri, Pharoah is my favourite tenor player. Pharoah has soul in abundance and his playing hits you without the artifice of art: it's a force of nature all of its own.
Here's a fairly easy piece but it tells you all you need to know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYKHCvmu1z4
Ok the song is cheesey but Pharoah's solo is unbelievable!
Try also 'The Creator Has A Master Plan' from 'Karma', Charlie.
Try also 'The Creator Has A Master Plan' from 'Karma', Charlie.
Charlie Jefferson
Well-known member
Jim-W said:
That's the one I've just been listening to for the last half hour or so. It's quite something. It's like a series of connected/disconnected intersections. Baffling, brilliant and beguiling. Well, hat was on my first listen. Headphones/Spotify. Need to hear it through my speakers really, I can't abide headphones for too long.
Thanks for the Meditations clarification. Onwards and downwards, spirally.
Freddy58
Well-known member
floyd droid said:Another dip into my Porky Twee dept..
I like Porcupine Tree
Aint heard them in ages...omnibeard said:
And then on to Cecil Taylor's 'Unit Structures' and Archie Shepp's 'Mama Too Tight.' You'll be a basket case, Charlie!
Charlie Jefferson
Well-known member
Jim-W said:
I've been sifting through a few jazz comps (on CD) that I have and came across some fascinating tracks by Jackie McClean, Cannonball Adderley, Miles, Kenny Burrell, Monk amongst others. Treated my family members to a rather loud blast of the first track off Coltrane's Meditations. Last track tonight though is another listen to The Creator Has A Master Plan. Sublime.
As an aside the only tracks that got the family thumbs up though were Keith Jarrett and strangely one of the tracks off Giant Steps. They virtually forced me to abandon Trigonometry off Metheny/Coleman's Song X, saying I was taking things too far now. They were in another part of the house but kept popping in to declare, "what's this?", "this one's not bad", "really?!?!, " who on earth is this?", "is this still the same track?". And on.
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