ifor
Well-known member
That would be the easy option. If you look at my TT history, however, I've only owned 3 tables since 1978. The next one needs to be the dogs as it'll problaby be the last TT purchase.
The Inspire/Thorens might be the ideal sounding kit but I need to be fully convinced before parting with money.
The Inspire/Thorens might be the ideal sounding kit but I need to be fully convinced before parting with money.
Al ears
Well-known member
Indeed. That is always possible about it eating away unless I hear my short, short list. I'm still buzzing about the prospect of a new table. Once the trouble is back to full fitness, it'll be 'Take Two'.
The reason for the delay is because I've still had this nasty cold. It goes for a few days -- feel great. Then, out of the blue, start sneezing and coughing my lungs up... around 9 bloody weeks I've had this. Docs have checked me over and not concerned by the sneezy cling on.
Probably over working myself. May have to put the table on hold until after the festive period.
Probably over working myself. May have to put the table on hold until after the festive period.
Okay I've decided. I've now narrowed it down to two tables. This is because of looks and sound, both should offer the required improvement over the Xpression 1.
Pro-ject Classic SB Super Pack, with the Ortofon Quintet Red MC cart.
ClearAudio Concept MC package.
However, this is where my logic stops: I've never ventured into the moving coil field. Can you please advise on the pros and cons of MCs? I know, from reading on this forum the basic rule of thumb is MCs are best above £300.
The Classic has the retro looks of old Thorens but with the latest technology. The ClearAudio looks quite quirky, which also appeals to me. I need a table that'll blow my current one away, wothout all the faffing about. I love the vinyl playback, but can't be doing with upgrading arms, motors, weights blah blah blah...
Pro-ject Classic SB Super Pack, with the Ortofon Quintet Red MC cart.
ClearAudio Concept MC package.
However, this is where my logic stops: I've never ventured into the moving coil field. Can you please advise on the pros and cons of MCs? I know, from reading on this forum the basic rule of thumb is MCs are best above £300.
The Classic has the retro looks of old Thorens but with the latest technology. The ClearAudio looks quite quirky, which also appeals to me. I need a table that'll blow my current one away, wothout all the faffing about. I love the vinyl playback, but can't be doing with upgrading arms, motors, weights blah blah blah...
iceman16
Well-known member
Hi PP..Can you ask your dealer on how much is the discounted price if Ortofon Quintet Black if bought with The Pro-ject classic? I have save £224 with mine from £649 to £425 when bought with my Pro-ject 5 carbon. The black is so good and has Shibata stylus compared to the lower Quintet range.
Al ears
Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
As far as I am aware your amp doesn't have a MC phono stage does it? Presumably you have a phono preamp of some type?
Personally I would not go anywhere near a MC cartridge unless you are spending over 500 quid. They get expensive as once anything happens to the stylus you might as well throw them away as no user-replaceable stylus and often cost of fixing is more than the cartridge is worth.
Why did you look at going down this route?
Out of the two decks I would go the Clearaudio route only with a MM cartridge, although I like the retro look of the Classic.
alchemist 1
Well-known member
Alternative thought...... Simplest to use, no faffing with cartridges { purchase already installled on headshells} very high spec. Built to last.plastic penguin said:
Technics 1200 GR.......OR 1200 G If it was within your budget
Yeah, purchased a Leema Elements phono stage with is switchable.
The reason for going down that route is because when I heard the basic Pro-ject Classic a good while back, it didn't really set the juices flowing. It was better than my table but not enough to justify a £900 price tag IMHO.
Until I read about the Quintet, wasn't aware it was MC. But there must be a reason for fitting a £250 MC over a similar priced MM. THis is what I'm trying to get my head around.
@iceman
Thanks, I'll enquire about that cart.
The reason for going down that route is because when I heard the basic Pro-ject Classic a good while back, it didn't really set the juices flowing. It was better than my table but not enough to justify a £900 price tag IMHO.
Until I read about the Quintet, wasn't aware it was MC. But there must be a reason for fitting a £250 MC over a similar priced MM. THis is what I'm trying to get my head around.
@iceman
Thanks, I'll enquire about that cart.
Al ears
Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
Understand, however you have to look at the disadvantages of MC cartridges. The only way to go is moving magnet or moving iron. The only reason the basic Classic didn't work is wrong cartridge not the fact it didn't have a moving coil.The Lerma Elements is supposed to be pretty good but it's only going to be as good as the cartridge it is amplifying. My personal opinion is you by whichever deck floats your boat but without the standard cartridge then fit the best moving magnet you can afford.
To buy a £250 mc over a MM people must be mad.
nopiano
Well-known member
Hi pp, you may recall I heard a bunch of Ortofons in September last year, and you’ll find the thread back in that month, called Ortofon Tour. I have to echo Al, based on that audition, and the general value MCs offer.
In that audition the Quintet Bronze was significantly superior to the Blue. It is over £500 but surely less in a bundle? The Reds are the lead in model with the most basic stylus, in each range. They also have the most rounded, or dullest, balance. It might suit you fine, but I’d rather get a fine line MC for the same money. Don’t overlook Goldring and Audio Technica either.
(Have you also considered the Project line marketed as EAT? The B-sharp model got a rave in HiFi Choice at £1300 plus cartridge.)
In that audition the Quintet Bronze was significantly superior to the Blue. It is over £500 but surely less in a bundle? The Reds are the lead in model with the most basic stylus, in each range. They also have the most rounded, or dullest, balance. It might suit you fine, but I’d rather get a fine line MC for the same money. Don’t overlook Goldring and Audio Technica either.
(Have you also considered the Project line marketed as EAT? The B-sharp model got a rave in HiFi Choice at £1300 plus cartridge.)
So in a nutshell, MC's are rubbish VFM. I am really drawn towards the Classic SB "Pack". I suppose the dealer, if asked would offer up a good quality MM -- or source one myself.
@nopiano
Never heard of Project Line EAT. Is it a special edition Pro-ject or something else?
@nopiano
Never heard of Project Line EAT. Is it a special edition Pro-ject or something else?
Al ears
Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
European Audio Team or EAT are the higher end group run by Jozefina Lichenegger from Czechoslovakia.( Heinz Lichenegger runs Pro-ject from Austria.) They produce class stuff. Always worth looking out for.
Ahh... I see the connection. Still never heard of them. *mosking*
I'll look for a Goldring 1042 or a better ClearAudio MM cart to go with either the Concept or Classic table. Given my budget that'll be the best compromise. (I think).
I'll look for a Goldring 1042 or a better ClearAudio MM cart to go with either the Concept or Classic table. Given my budget that'll be the best compromise. (I think).
Al ears
Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
I must say I am not that up on Clearaudio Cartridges as only heard one, the 1042 is a classic and good choice as is the slightly cheaper 1022.
nopiano
Well-known member
Yes, Al has explained the link. In the U.K EAT are imported by Absolute Sounds, so you know they’re going to be good. You might fear higher mark ups too, but the reviews suggest a stripped down high end table rather than a souped up basic one. I’ve never heard one, but saw some at the Windsor Show and they looked delightful. I’d also be curious to hear the new GR Technics, especially if you fancy cartridge swapping. That’s my biggest regret about most modern arms, that this is no longer possible.
MC presentation is different to MM or moving iron types. Tracking and compliance matters can be demanding on arms and set up. They have their place but it realistically needs to be at a more exalted level than you’re probing, imo, especially now many MM cartridges are more sophisticated and pricy. If you can audition the Classic bundle definitely try it, but though the Quintet Red is definitely better than the Ortofon Silver, bear in mind that’s fairly modest itself. Bronze models seem to yield the best vfm in Ortofon’s ranges.
Did you ever get to hear the turntables you were hoping to before the lurgy struck?
MC presentation is different to MM or moving iron types. Tracking and compliance matters can be demanding on arms and set up. They have their place but it realistically needs to be at a more exalted level than you’re probing, imo, especially now many MM cartridges are more sophisticated and pricy. If you can audition the Classic bundle definitely try it, but though the Quintet Red is definitely better than the Ortofon Silver, bear in mind that’s fairly modest itself. Bronze models seem to yield the best vfm in Ortofon’s ranges.
Did you ever get to hear the turntables you were hoping to before the lurgy struck?
Haven't dem'd the said TTs, but a while back I dem'd the basic Pro-ject Classic and the Xperience SB. TBH, I came away feeling a little underwhelmed, even though I lugged my Xpression in to the shop (SSAV) to compare.
"Would they have given a better impression at home?" and "Could the table set-up be a factor?" blah blah... all the normal questions that usually runs through your mind when something doesn't sound quite right.
Perhaps hearing these at home will give me a different impression.
"Would they have given a better impression at home?" and "Could the table set-up be a factor?" blah blah... all the normal questions that usually runs through your mind when something doesn't sound quite right.
Perhaps hearing these at home will give me a different impression.
Al ears said:
As you well know I'm a big fan of ClearAudio carts. Also have great fondness of owning past Goldrings. IIRC, Goldring have a beautifully balanced presentation. However, it has been a long time. The last Goldring I dem'd was when I had my first ClearAudio Classic Wood fitted back in 2006: Can't remember the model, but it was around £110.
davidf
Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
Sorry, didn't see this post - this forum is rubbish with regards to keeping track of threads.
MM vs MC. This is like active vs passive, valve vs SS, etc etc. Everyone will have their preferences.
The main drawback with Moving Coil, other than the fact they're usually more expensive, is that the whole cartridge is one piece - there's no option to change the stylus. Some places might rebuild/replace the stylus tip for you, but I have no experience of how well this works or how it compares to just buying a new cart. Moving Coil IS better - when it is done properly. A good moving coil cart will require better electronics to make the most of what it is capable of, which usualy means a bit more money. Your Leema is fine for the decks you're looking at, as I've used it before with the likes of Michell decks like the Gyro. Moving Coil sounds clearer - probably the sort of difference some describe when describing the difference between passive and active speakers. Moving Magnet can sound warm and fuzzy in comparison to MC, lacking that space and clarity that MC generally provides. Don't get me wrong, MC can still have a nice warmth to it, but in a way that doesn't fuzzy things up. As I'm typing, I'm listening to an Audio Technica AT-33sa - not cheap at £679 - but I'm listening to a soundstage and three dimensional detail that I'm not familiar with on the CD version of the album (Peace Orchestra's self titled album). This is on a Technics SL1200G through a Hegel Rost and (just) a pair of £1,000 Amphion Argon 1 speakers.
Moving Magnet is generally cheaper, and allows you to upgrade your stylus, and even move up the range when doing so, if you wish. Whilst the accompanying MM phono stage will still be important, it doesn't necessarily need to be as good as the MC one would be, but again, your Leema will be fine for whichever one you're looking at. There are some great MM carts around, but when you're talking high quality decks, MC carts really do take things up a level. Whilst I wouldn't necessarily go as far to say ignore MC carts, I would certainly recommend to avoid entry level ones - maybe £150-200 you'd be better off with a good Moving Magnet. As it has a user replceable stylus which is nice and easy, it's cheaper to do so if you have a little "accident".
As I've mentioned before, the MM cart that comes with the Clearaudio Concept sounds more like a Moving Coil cart to me - the whole thing just sounded clearer than the other decks it was compared to. The nearest any deck could get to it was the Project 2 Xperience SB, but it just couldn't match the tiny delicate details like gentle cymbal work - the other decks sounded like they were exaggerating the HF, 'smearing' I suppose you could say, losing that delicacy.
At this sort of price point PP, you won't be messing about with upgrades. Most decks at this price point nowadays are designed as a plug and play type solution (particularly the Concept), although one or two will allow some upgrades/tweaks if you every decided to go that route. Even just messing about with turntable mats can bring about quite a difference!
At the end of the day though, it's about getting out there and listening to some though, as only you can make the decision on just how good the decks you're looking at actually are, and whether they're worthy successors to your Project.
Every now and again I get a feeling I'd like to sell all my vinyl and just stick to digital - no faff. But then I sit down and listen to some well produced vinyl and it just sounds so good, I can't bring myself to do it - most of the time it seems to have something that digital just doesn't have (no quips about 'snap, crackle, and pop' please!). When I haven't listened to an album on vinyl for some time, or sometimes for the first time, you always hear something that sounds different, just little things. You know the CD should be technically better, but the vinyl just sounds "right". Anyway, long story short, I don't think I can bring myself to sell any of it, despite the overall figure that Discogs says my collection is worth!
Al ears
Well-known member
DougK said:
I would agree with most of David's observations. Being the user of low output moving coil cartridges I would agree the associated electronics are very important but get it right and hey ho you are not going to look anywhere else. I would stress though that this level is expensive having once trashed my Zyx cartridge and then find out repair was possible but likely to cost more than I paid for it although I did import direct from Japan. Interestingly the AT David mentioned I used as a replacement but didn't pay anywhere near what he quoted for it.
The quality of moving magnets has improved dramatically and I would say this is now the only way to go if your total budget (cartridge and possible phono preamp) is less than £700.
Auditioning cartridges is basically non existent and so you are going to have to bite the bullet at some point. Go for the 1042 and you will not regret it.
I was lucky enough to have my phono/preamp/power amp and speaker set-up sorted some time ago so all available funds have been directed towards a cartridge to finish the system. I have, over 40 years of experience with turntables/ cartridge setups since I first started into hifi but have never had the money to go silly with them so no Koetsu as yet but I have heard a few.
ifor
Well-known member
I don’t know the prices, but you can start with the IQ-1 and upgrade to 2 or 3 by changing the stylus. I think, but am not certain, you can also ‘downgrade’ by fitting a G1042 stylus.
There’s a review at TNT. http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/audionote_iq3_e.html
There’s a review at TNT. http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/audionote_iq3_e.html
Al ears
Well-known member
ifor said:
Pretty sure looking at them they are modified Goldrings. AN like many manufacturers don't make their own cartridges. So unless they are considered cheap I would forget them.
If you're going to buy a cartridge get them from a reknown cartridge manufacturer.
Besides, just try finding one to buy....
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