What small factor high end speakers are there?

[BigH]

I'd really love more than just one review of this amplifier too.

Here you go: http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/lavardin-model-isx-integrated-amplifier/

Lavardin and Harbeth are all about putting musical enjoyment first, rather than chasing specs, or going for an initial 'showboat" impression.

Only a listen will convince you one way, or another.

Thank you, but that's the Lavardin ISx integrated amplifier. The one I was looking at was the Lavardin ISx Reference integrated. .. No worries though.

I was keen to press on yesterday, and almost got on the phonoe to buy the Moon 240i. .. Today I feel deflated, and less decided. I wasn't actually sure if I was decided on the Moon 240i. However it always seems be the amplifier I think I will have to buy.

I think I can mamage with its meagre two RCA inputs, as that's what I use now. Though another RCA input would be for safety margin. .. OK then I think. I can use its digital inputs.

My stumbling blocks are few:

The descriptions of it that pro-reviewers make. Nothing bad. They all say it's a bargain. However none of them seem to mention massive detail levels. It makes me think that it's a very tonally beautiful amp, and smooth and refined. However just maybe not a detail monkey. I know What HiFi say, "It doesn't sacrifice an ounce of detial, in being so smooth". Yet they don't bullet point its detail level. I may have just interpreted this wrong, becauase they descibe subleties not normally heard at this level. Maybe that's there way of describing its detail level.

It would have ben nice if its 50W/ch at 8 ohms, correlated to 100W/ch at 4ohm. Instead it's only 75W/ch at 4ohms.

If I then go up the chain, to a Moon that doubles wattage when speaker impedance is halved, there is the Moon 340i. A basic analogue or choice of DAC incorporated. However reviews on that are rare again.

Since it's such a minfield of pitfalls and lack of pro reviews, on many models. You feel like you are compromising on the best you find of what's left. Hence you think you are compromising. Not deciding so much, based of loads of inofrmation.

How can you be decided if you have not heard it? You should take your time and hear many different options. I would not go by reviews for various reasons, the other equipement will no doubt be different, the room will be different, the reviewers hearing, taste etc. will be different, the music will probably be different. WHF never review Harbeth, because won't send them any speakers to review. WHF have a specially treated room, cost a lot of money, do you have anything similar? Looking at the WHF music choice, I think most of it's awful. Many reviews don't have the gear for a long time, it may only be a few hours. You have been given some good options I would explore those. The only way to decide is by using your own ears, with your music, best to try at home before buying if you can.

 

[Green Bow]

Firstly Lavardin are so rare, that there isn't a dealer within easy travelling distance. I think there are about six dealers in the UK.

Moon are similar, with more dealers, however still a good long journey, from me.

Also as someone pointed out, you don't get to hear the contasting equipment at the same place always. You also have to exptrapolate aas not every auditioner will have your speakers etc.

No much point me saying more, because I think I'll get criticised on this whatever I say. However I feel I have no chocie other than to follow reviews. Also, in contradiction with many an oninion of e.g What HiFi, I never put pound wrongly spent on their advice. Of course like I said, I prefer as many reviews as possible. (I think What HIFi are the most read of the reviewers, and I think that's based on their layout. Off all the reviews i read, their format is the most easliy accessible.) Folk will disagree though.

 

[BigH]

Firstly Lavardin are so rare, that there isn't a dealer within easy travelling distance. I think there are about six dealers in the UK.

Moon are similar, with more dealers, however still a good long journey, from me.

Also as someone pointed out, you don't get to hear the contasting equipment at the same place always. You also have to exptrapolate aas not every auditioner will have your speakers etc.

No much point me saying more, because I think I'll get criticised on this whatever I say. However I feel I have no chocie other than to follow reviews. Also, in contradiction with many an oninion of e.g What HiFi, I never put pound wrongly spent on their advice. Of course like I said, I prefer as many reviews as possible. (I think What HIFi are the most read of the reviewers, and I think that's based on their layout. Off all the reviews i read, their format is the most easliy accessible.) Folk will disagree though.

OK but I would buy from somewhere where you can return if you are not happy. If I had gone on reviews when I was buying I would probably have bought the Arcam A19 amp. Fortunately I heard it first and did not like it at all. The Moon amp. does seem good from the reviews. If you buy the amp. blind I hope you will hear the speakers before buying. I find WHF reviews very short and shallow, I prefer HiFiChoice and Stereophile for reading. I think my tastes are probably more aligned to HiFiChoice reviews. But you said you did not like the Rega Elex, that is WHF 5 star and Best Buy.

 

[Al ears]

audiosmile kensai

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/audiosmile-kensai--pound;1503/1...

If you can find a pair second-hand.....

 

[Al ears]

No much point me saying more, because I think I'll get criticised on this whatever I say.

Speaking for myself, nothing I have said was meant as criticism...and I suspect the same could be said of every other contributor.

We are just keen that you don't make the same mistakes that most of us have made, over the years. You can choose to listen, or you can choose to ignore our advice. It is your money and your ears.

We really are trying to help...not criticise.

FWIW. I would say the single most aired problem on here is, "I have just bought this expensive system, made up of 5* products and it's really dissapointing (usually to forward/harsh/bright)."

+1

There's no better reviewers than your own ears.

Unless you really feel like chancing your arm and perhaps prepared to spend time selling it on if it doesn't suit then, if you cannot audition it don't buy it.

 

[CnoEvil]

No much point me saying more, because I think I'll get criticised on this whatever I say.

Speaking for myself, nothing I have said was meant as criticism...and I suspect the same could be said of every other contributor.

We are just keen that you don't make the same mistakes that most of us have made, over the years. You can choose to listen, or you can choose to ignore our advice. It is your money and your ears.

We really are trying to help...not criticise.

FWIW. I would say the single most aired problem on here is, "I have just bought this expensive system, made up of 5* products and it's really dissapointing (usually too forward/harsh/bright)."

 

[CnoEvil]

There is a store that does Naim nearby. I suppose I could go hear that. I'd be looking for tonal neutrality in the timbre. I really don't want to go even fractionally lean on sound. However it's also an issue with what speakers I'd hear the Naim Supernait 2 with. I could end up with some Q Acoustics, which can often be on the warm side. I might end up thinking the Niam is Ok when it's edging towards lean. I like my kit as close ot the middle as possible, or as near to how it was made. (I know that costs ultimately vastly more, but, well, you know.) I think I would err slightly tonally rich, if I absolutely had to compromise. Usually though, I do without unless I find the item I want. As of right now though, I have a burning for a new and better amplifier.

Naim has it own unique "punchy" sound. Some love it and some don't.....but it's always worth a listen.

IMO. Naim works well with Kef R Series/LS50, Neat, Kudos, Harbeth and Q Acoustics.

 

[Green Bow]

No much point me saying more, because I think I'll get criticised on this whatever I say.

Speaking for myself, nothing I have said was meant as criticism...and I suspect the same could be said of every other contributor.

We are just keen that you don't make the same mistakes that most of us have made, over the years. You can choose to listen, or you can choose to ignore our advice. It is your money and your ears.

We really are trying to help...not criticise.

FWIW. I would say the single most aired problem on here is, "I have just bought this expensive system, made up of 5* products and it's really dissapointing (usually to forward/harsh/bright)."

Please don't think I meant that. It's just when you explain why you're not off to auditions, people can sometimes get a bit off with that.

There is a store that does Naim nearby. I suppose I could go hear that. I'd be looking for tonal neutrality in the timbre. I really don't want to go even fractionally lean on sound. However it's also an issue with what speakers I'd hear the Naim Supernait 2 with. I could end up with some Q Acoustics, which can often be on the warm side. I might end up thinking the Niam is Ok when it's edging towards lean. I like my kit as close ot the middle as possible, or musically sounding as near to how music was made. (I know that costs ultimately vastly more, but, well, you know.) ........ I think I would err slightly tonally rich, if I absolutely had to compromise. Usually though, I do without unless I find the item I want. As of right now though, I have a burning for a new and better amplifier.

@BigH, yeah, I like Sterofphile too. I like that they put test results in. (Hifi Critic do that too, and you can download some of their stuff for free.) Actually someone did results on the Special Forty and they came out farily flat. I love flat.

I think the deal with the Moon 240i, is that everyone loves it. Many actually say it might cure the upgrade itch once and for all. It's meant to be that good. The general feeling is also given that, it's a bargain. Might be a good idea to jump now before prices go up. They usually do when a product gets hot. .. Also the more I think about it, I might really like the convenience of the 240i's built in DAC.

I suppose right now, I am thinking Supernait 2, go and hear. I love the idea of What HiFi's point about it having excellent bass. As I'm dealing with smaller speakers and lower volumes, I'm thinking get the amp bass right. Havin said that, many of the small speakers at this price, seem to have good bass levels. Also, the 240i, and the Caspian M2 integrated. (Maybe the Lavardin.)

Going back to the point about the Rega Elex - R, I discounted it at the time I heard it. Then re-thought, and wondered if it was just detail glare. It was probably both detial glare, and its slight leanness. Overall, I always did Ok with What HiFi, but you make a good point. I am also unsure with What HiFi and their love of Grado 325i, and now 325e. ... The probelm also is, that there's nothing else doing detail and soundstage at the price. Therefor WHF give the stars, as they are still good headphones. Even if they are bright. .. However I probably could imagine someone getting to love the Elex - R, with warmer speakers. That's also what they advise, meaning careful partnering. Like maybe the Q Acoustics 3050.

---------

Anyway, thanks for the chat that this has become. I love talking audio gear.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

One thing to understand about reviews and star ratings it’s not always correct and it comes down to the reviewers opinion about what ever gear he or she is reviewing .

I have just spent £4000 on a Yamaha A-S3000 it’s only got a 3 star rating does that bother me not one bit because it’s the reviewers opinion in what he or she thinks

Take this for an example you brought the Naim amplifier you could put 5 different makes of speakers on that amplifier and they would all sound different and let’s say you put the wrong matching speakers and I am talking about a sonic match with the Naim amplifier what’s the Naim amplifier going to sound like now crap .

Thats why we are trying to save you time and money and big disappointment that’s why it’s important to demo theses things first and even better home demo then at least you no if you like the sound of what you are buying and not someone else’s opinion on how good it sounds .

And you do not have to spend the Earth to get really good sounding hifi so keep your options open

If your after a natural sounding sound then look at speakers and amplifiers that are like this and see if your local dealer has this kind of setup in store to demo and take some of your favourite music with you and explain to the dealer what your after .

My Yamaha A-S3000 and the Yamaha A-S2100 is on the natural side of sound and I am using big Dali opticon 8s and it sounds lovely which seems to fit in with what your looking for but that’s my opinion *smile* but seriously book some demo’s and get a idea what’s out there

 

[Green Bow]

There is a store that does Naim nearby. I suppose I could go hear that. I'd be looking for tonal neutrality in the timbre. I really don't want to go even fractionally lean on sound. However it's also an issue with what speakers I'd hear the Naim Supernait 2 with. I could end up with some Q Acoustics, which can often be on the warm side. I might end up thinking the Niam is Ok when it's edging towards lean. I like my kit as close ot the middle as possible, or as near to how it was made. (I know that costs ultimately vastly more, but, well, you know.) I think I would err slightly tonally rich, if I absolutely had to compromise. Usually though, I do without unless I find the item I want. As of right now though, I have a burning for a new and better amplifier.

Naim has it own unique "punchy" sound. Some love it and some don't.....but it's always worth a listen.

IMO. Naim works well with Kef R Series/LS50, Neat, Kudos, Harbeth and Q Acoustics.

I've never heard Naim at all.

I find punchy depens on how it's made. .. I used to listen to some Q Acoustics BT3, and the bass was rolled off at maybe 65Hz. The result was a puch with hitting bass sounds, and I did not like it. It stood out and apatr from the music. i think it was because bass notes were cut-off. .... Then when I bought the Rega Brio and the Emit M10, I heard a mch lower bass. This combination is punchy in s different way. It makes tom-toms sound like tom-toms, and a punchy bliss.

The Emit M10 really are astonishing little speakers. You listen to them and can't believe speakers that size an make that sound. You go looking around at them trying to work out how they do it. ... They say similar thing about the Special Forty. ... I think I have been bitten by Dynaudio. I am however remaing completely open minded to other speakers. Neither can I shift the PMC Twenty5.22 from my mind.

 

[Green Bow]

I was reading a chap, I think from Stereophile, that was saying, buy the best amplifier you can afford. (In realtion to his Moon 240i review.) Then find some used high end speakers. (Which really opens up the playing field. .. Then over time spend on cables.

Yet some folk say, be really careful about second hand speakers.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I was reading a chap, I think from Stereophile, that was saying, buy the best amplifier you can afford. (In realtion to his Moon 240i review.) Then find some used high end speakers. (Which really opens up the playing field. .. Then over time spend on cables.

Yet some folk say, be really careful about second hand speakers.

there are some really mint condition speakers out there do not be afraid of secondhand it could save lots of money and most people really look after there hifi gear even keep the boxes .

yes you can buy bad stuff but it’s a very small 10% that’s really bad

I will eventually buy some Dali epicon 6s I cant afford new because they are £8000 but secondhand or ex demo I am looking at £5000 that’s a £3000 saving and they will be mint for that money too

 

[Andrewjvt]

 

No much point me saying more, because I think I'll get criticised on this whatever I say.

Speaking for myself, nothing I have said was meant as criticism...and I suspect the same could be said of every other contributor. 

We are just keen that you don't make the same mistakes that most of us have made, over the years. You can choose to listen, or you can choose to ignore our advice. It is your money and your ears.

We really are trying to help...not criticise. 

FWIW. I would say the single most aired problem on here is, "I have just bought this expensive system, made up of 5* products and it's really dissapointing (usually to forward/harsh/bright)."

 

Please don't think I meant that. It's just when you explain why you're not off to auditions, people can sometimes get a bit off with that.

There is a store that does Naim nearby. I suppose I could go hear that. I'd be looking for tonal neutrality in the timbre. I really don't want to go even fractionally lean on sound. However it's also an issue with what speakers I'd hear the Naim Supernait 2 with. I could end up with some Q Acoustics, which can often be on the warm side. I might end up thinking the Niam is Ok when it's edging towards lean. I like my kit as close ot the middle as possible, or musically sounding as near to how music was made. (I know that costs ultimately vastly more, but, well, you know.) ........ I think I would err slightly tonally rich, if I absolutely had to compromise. Usually though, I do without unless I find the item I want. As of right now though, I have a burning for a new and better amplifier.

 

@BigH, yeah, I like Sterofphile too. I like that they put test results in. (Hifi Critic do that too, and you can download some of their stuff for free.) Actually someone did results on the Special Forty and they came out farily flat. I love flat.  

I think the deal with the Moon 240i, is that everyone loves it. Many actually say it might cure the upgrade itch once and for all. It's meant to be that good. The general feeling is also given that, it's a bargain. Might be a good idea to jump now before prices go up. They usually do when a product gets hot. .. Also the more I think about it, I might really like the convenience of the 240i's built in DAC.

I suppose right now, I am thinking Supernait 2, go and hear. I love the idea of What HiFi's point about it having excellent bass. As I'm dealing with smaller speakers and lower volumes, I'm thinking get the amp bass right. Havin said that, many of the small speakers at this price, seem to have good bass levels. Also, the 240i, and the Caspian M2 integrated. (Maybe the Lavardin.)

 

Going back to the point about the Rega Elex - R, I discounted it at the time I heard it. Then re-thought, and wondered if it was just detail glare. It was probably both detial glare, and its slight leanness. Overall, I always did Ok with What HiFi, but you make a good point. I am also unsure with What HiFi and their love of Grado 325i, and now 325e. ... The probelm also is, that there's nothing else doing detail and soundstage at the price. Therefor WHF give the stars, as they are still good headphones. Even if they are bright. .. However I probably could imagine someone getting to love the Elex - R, with warmer speakers. That's also what they advise, meaning careful partnering. Like maybe the Q Acoustics 3050.  

---------

Anyway, thanks for the chat that this has become. I love talking audio gear.

 

 

If you don't want to go lean then naim super nait may suit you. I have hardly any experience with them but have heard them the super nait with some ATC and the sound is nice and full.
The bass has presence and far from lean (Hegel type sound)

 

[newlash09]

With a pairing of naim and qacoustics concept series speakers. A lot of folks have found them to be a synergistic match. The slightly laid back smoothness of the concept 40's matches the slightly forward and edgy presentation of the naim.

On a different note since you are willing to go by reviews. If you want the maximum detail for your money below usd 10k, then it is either the devialet D120 or Benchmark AHB2 amp as per majority of the American reviews. You can look up the reviews of the benchmark amp. Benchmark makes the same products for both pro studios as well as hifi . Have a reputation for honesty and neutrality. Though will not be magical sounding if that is what you want. This matched with a benchmark dac2 will be ruthlessly revealing and transparent...but warning : only for detail junkies , not for everyone

 

[newlash09]

Your requirements are ideal for a SET amp, if you can live with the heat. You can check up icon audio or audio note. Or on a different note if you want minster amps, a line magnetic LM219ia.

But I think you already tried a class A amp and didn't get on with it. Going by reviews the parasound halo integrated also gets very good reviews all around. A high bias class A / class AB amp that doesn't get hot even in class A mode. With your low volume requirement, you might be in class A mode mostly. Please do check up the review . It comes with a lot of flexibility.

 

[Macspur]

Greenbow, as you seem to be keen on the Moon amp, would it not be possible to buy one on a 30 day money back guarantee? At least you'll know for yourself then if it suits your taste.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[BigH]

With a pairing of naim and qacoustics concept series speakers. A lot of folks have found them to be a synergistic match. The slightly laid back smoothness of the concept 40's matches the slightly forward and edgy presentation of the naim.

On a different note since you are willing to go by reviews. If you want the maximum detail for your money below usd 10k, then it is either the devialet D120 or Benchmark AHB2 amp as per majority of the American reviews. You can look up the reviews of the benchmark amp. Benchmark makes the same products for both pro studios as well as hifi . Have a reputation for honesty and neutrality. Though will not be magical sounding if that is what you want. This matched with a benchmark dac2 will be ruthlessly revealing and transparent...but warning : only for detail junkies , not for everyone

I'm not sure he wants a neatral amp. He likes the Rega Brio, most would say that is warm, the Elex he did not like but that is more neutral, I think the Benchmark maybe too neutral for him, esp. with small speakers. My understanding is he wants a warm but detailed sound. If he really wants detailed and neutral I would suggest he hears some Actice speakers such as AE1s. But as he thinks a Brio amp is neutral I suspect he does not want that. If I was buying speakers now I would be looked at used ones.

 

[Green Bow]

Re-reading what some pro-reviews are saying about the Dynaudio Special Forty, and positioning. They are saying about a metre from the rear wall for best sound. . However where I am, I don't have that much space behind my speaker position.

I am going to have another look at the B&W 705 S2. (Their frequency response is rated down to 50Hz, and I absolutely want to go lower though.) I do also still have my shortlist which I made earlier, after re-reading all posts.

I know I said I was not going to look at active speaakers, but the ATC SCM20ASL Pro might work. Extremely hard to find though. PLus they don't exactly connect in a regular way as far as I remember.

Also going to have a hard look at Harbeth.

 

[davidf]

Re-reading what some pro-reviews are saying about the Dynaudio Special Forty, and positioning. They are saying about a metre from the rear wall for best sound. . However where I am, I don't have that much space behind my speaker position.

And that’s the important thing - you need to take into account the space YOU have to play with, not the space that’s demonstrated to you, which will usually be ideal for the speaker in the dealer’s demo room.

 

[CnoEvil]

Also going to have a hard look at Harbeth.

Excellent.

If you listen to music with your heart, rather than your head, it's a great choice. They also work with a wide variety of amps. My preference would be the likes of Lavardin, Croft or Sugden....and Naim is also a known match. Should also work with Moon.

 

[Green Bow]

Re-reading what some pro-reviews are saying about the Dynaudio Special Forty, and positioning. They are saying about a metre from the rear wall for best sound. . However where I am, I don't have that much space behind my speaker position.

And that’s the important thing - you need to take into account the space YOU have to play with, not the space that’s demonstrated to you, which will usually be ideal for the speaker in the dealer’s demo room.

I have the Dynaudio Emit M10, and that's a rear bass port speaker. However there's not mention of it needing a lot of space, Or I think they said it needs a bit of space. The slightly bigger M20 does get comments in pro-reviews about needing a some space. With them saying the Special Forty needs a metre and a bit more; that's a lot.

I think the issue with needing space behind and around is reflections muddy the sound. It does make an argument for the PMC Twenty5.22

I had another look at the Harbeth last night. I think only one speaker, the largest home speaker, went under 50Hz and that went to 45Hz. That it was a huge speaker, though and way over the size that I can accomodate. The smallest Harbeth I think only goes down to 75Hz. If i did start thinking abot a 50Hz speaker, it would be a compromise. I have 50Hz now and want to go lower.

Anyway, just saying.

 

[rainsoothe]

The P3esr have no low end if you ask me, but who knows, many think it's enough for their needs, so you might like them. Personally, if I were to chose only between them and a good lower budget speaker, I'd always choose the latter, no matter how wonderful the Harbeth midrange might be in comparison.

 

[BigH]

Re-reading what some pro-reviews are saying about the Dynaudio Special Forty, and positioning. They are saying about a metre from the rear wall for best sound. . However where I am, I don't have that much space behind my speaker position.

And that’s the important thing - you need to take into account the space YOU have to play with, not the space that’s demonstrated to you, which will usually be ideal for the speaker in the dealer’s demo room.

I have the Dynaudio Emit M10, and that's a rear bass port speaker. However there's not mention of it needing a lot of space, Or I think they said it needs a bit of space. The slightly bigger M20 does get comments in pro-reviews about needing a some space. With them saying the Special Forty needs a metre and a bit more; that's a lot.

I think the issue with needing space behind and around is reflections muddy the sound. It does make an argument for the PMC Twenty5.22

I had another look at the Harbeth last night. I think only one speaker, the largest home speaker, went under 50Hz and that went to 45Hz. That it was a huge speaker, though and way over the size that I can accomodate. The smallest Harbeth I think only goes down to 75Hz. If i did start thinking abot a 50Hz speaker, it would be a compromise. I have 50Hz now and want to go lower.

Anyway, just saying.

I think you are getting too bogged down with specs, best to go and hear some different speakers. I'm sure the Harbeth's do go down below 75Hz. In your room you probably don't want too much bass anyway. But Harbreth are not very sensitive so you may need fair bit of power to drive them properly, only 83db at 6 Ohms. If I'm correct you will need about 4x the power than a speaker that is 90DB @ 8 Ohms.

 

[gasolin]

Deeper of louder bass?

The emit m10's are very warm sounding speakers with a nad amp, the bass is deep and punchy but the upper midrange lower treble lacks energy, not enought bite to soft sounding, it did sound wrong to me, i was missing something playing rock music

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. In the same way that I wouldn't advise buying on reviews alone, I also wouldn't, as has been said above, get too caught up on specs.

I have a strong belief, that the magic is in the midrange. Bass is of course important, but taste, room size, positioning and the type of music one listens to....are all big factors. If for example, you love what the baby Harbeths do but need more bass...that can be fixed with a small sub, like the Gemini from BK. Bass you can fix, treble and mids much less so.

I heard the Spendor SA1 in a small room and loved it so much I borrowed it for a home dem....it couldn't cope with the size of the room and sounded weedy, so it went back.

Everything that is being said, comes back to trying various options.