What small factor high end speakers are there?

[Green Bow]

I am curious about the:

PMC Twenty5.22

Dynaudio Special Forty.

Are there any other 'must contemplate' at this price or above. I thought about the ATC SMC19, but they are a touch too too big. I looked over Neat speakers, but the Iota and SX3 are going to struggle with bass. Bass is going to be an issue for smaller speakers. However some do better than others. The PMC and Dynaudio that I mentioned are supposed to do well. Their frequency range goes down low enough too.

Are there any that I have not come across, at this size with ultra quality, please anyone?

 

[ellisdj]

Bowers 705 S2 are good speakers and they do bass like small floorstanders

 

[newlash09]

Very small with awesome bass. Last I heard them, they sounded exactly like my floor standers, which was unbelievable.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I am curious about the:

PMC Tweny.23

Are there any other 'must contemplate' at this price or above. I thought about the ATC SMC19, but they are a touch too too big. I looked over Neat speakers, but the Iota and SX3 are going to struggle with bass. Bass is going to be an issue for smaller speakers. However some do better than other. The PMC and Dynaudio that I mentioned are supposed to do well. Their frequecny range goes down low enough too.

Are there any that I have not come across, at this size with ultra quality, please anyone?

pmc twenty 23 are floor standing speakers and hardly small form factor....the pmc twenty 21's on the other hand are only 32cm tall and 15 cm wide.......from what I've read about the dynaudio special 40's.....they need plenty of room to perform.

 

[Green Bow]

Am going to have another look at the Bowers & Wilkins 705 S2. I think I looked at them before, and might have decided against but can't remember why. Maybe my checklist is changed or whatever, so I will look at them again.

 

[CnoEvil]

You could look at:

Diapason Karis or Adamenentes 111

Spendor D1

 

[newlash09]

Am going to have another look at the Bowers & Wilkins 705 S2. I think I looked at them before, and might have decided against but can't remember why. Maybe my checklist is changed or whatever, so I will look at them again.

 

 

What amp are you using. And what's the rest of your kit. I think the dynaudio special forty's need gobs of power to get the best from them. The pmc's will be a more easier load on the amp.

 

[davidf]

What you need to be careful if though, is the required placement for the speakers, even if they are small, as small doesn’t necessarily mean they can be used near a rear wall. Many small speakers that produce the sort of bass associated with floorstanders tend to need space to work well, so depending on the placement requirements, may be completely unsuitable.

The Ophidian Prophet P1 uses a rear port system that doesn’t produce violent air flow, so tend to fare better near to walls than many others.

And depending on the price, there’s the TAD speakers...

 

[ellisdj]

the 800 series are demanding of everything to get the best from them
To be fair I was running the 705 S2 off some serious kit and some serious amp

 

[Green Bow]

It's actually a bit awkward dealing with what's my amplifier, because of a few reasons.

Firstly I have not bought it yet. Secondly saying this means some people might start saying I have got it back to front. Or suggesting amplifiers I would not be interested in. Or talking about system pairing etc, when I have thought it through. Basically because I only buy tonally neutral equipment. Meaning I won't buy a bright amp, and pair with warm speakers. I find if I keep to neutral kit, I always do well.

However think the Special Forty will be OK with the amplifier I have in mind.

I am looking very closely at the Simaudio Moon 240i. (I currently have the new Rage Brio.) It's not matter of if i get a new amplifier; it's just when. ... Just three days ago, I bought three back issue copies of HiFi Choice. One was for the review of the Moon 240i.

I am considering another (more expensive) amplifier, the Lavardin ISx Reference integrated amplifier. With low level listening being one of my main considerations though, the 240i looks like the one. Basically because What Hi-Fi review it as being equally good at quiet listening levels. (Having said that, I bet the Lavardin is good when quiet too, going by its characteristics.)

Both these amplifiers though are only 50W amplifiers into 8ohms. The reason I want a 50w amplifier though is because I need to be able to listen at low volume levels. A loud amplifier would barely turn the volume wheel.

My only concern with the Moon 240i, is that it has only two line level inputs. (Plus one phono input.) The rest of its inputs are digital. However since most of my time will be spent with music going through my DAC, that's OK. I'll mostly only use one analogue input. I do however have a tuner, which I use sometimes, either by digital output or analogue. Leaving no free analogue input on the amplifier. ... It does actually have a fourth analogue input, by the 3.5mm jack on the front panel. I might be able to utilise that.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Figures that amps refer to has no bearing whatsoever on whether they will play well at low listening volumes......that tends to be a speaker trait.....another thing is...the speakers you're looking at will need more than a fifty watts per channel amplifier......even my little pmc twenty 21's love a amp with some juice......you usually find that some little standmounts require a amp with a beefy power supply and decent wattage output and are in some cases harder to drive than equivalent price floorstanding speakers.

 

[Infiniteloop]

If you’d consider second-hand, upper range Sonus Faber would be a good bet.

 

[Green Bow]

The magazine with the Moon 240i amplifier in, also has the B&W 705 S2 review in.

Haha, happy reading. Issue no. 430.

 

[BigH]

HARBETH P3ESR are quite small 30 x 19cm.

You should choose the speakers and amp together, it's the only way really. Don't go too much on reviews.

 

[newlash09]

I think you are right in getting the speakers first, and then looking at an amp to match them. Understand that you are looking for tonal neutrality in the amp, but no harm having excess power on tap.

With my qacoustics concept 40's, I found that more power always got out more from them at the same volume level. And these are pretty efficient speakers at 90db. So not like they needed much power in the first place. You might not be missing anything in your present pairing, but might find improvements if you use a more powerful amplifier.

Since you are going to buy a new amp anyway, why not consider power too when purchasing. You have a very good budget, where you don't have to compromise on power for sound quality.

 

[CnoEvil]

I am looking very closely at the Simaudio Moon 240i. (I currently have the new Rage Brio.) It's not matter of if i get a new amplifier; it's just when. ... Just three days ago, I bought three back issue copies of HiFi Choice. One was for the review of the Moon 240i.

I am considering another (more expensive) amplifier, the Lavardin ISx Reference integrated amplifier. With low level listening being one of my main considerations though, the 240i looks like the one. Basically because What Hi-Fi review it as being equally good at quiet listening levels. (Having said that, I bet the Lavardin is good when quiet too, going by its characteristics.)

Both these amplifiers though are only 50W amplifiers into 8ohms. The reason I want a 50w amplifier though is because I need to be able to listen at low volume levels. A loud amplifier would barely turn the volume wheel.

My only concern with the Moon 240i, is that it has only two line level inputs. (Plus one phono input.) The rest of its inputs are digital. However since most of my time will be spent with music going through my DAC, that's OK. I'll mostly only use one analogue input. I do however have a tuner, which I use sometimes, either by digital output or analogue. Leaving no free analogue input on the amplifier. ... It does actually have a fourth analogue input, by the 3.5mm jack on the front panel. I might be able to utilise that.

IMO. The Lavardin is a great choice - delicate, refined and musical.

Moon is a very solid brand, but do give it a good dem....I didn't get on with the i7, which I found too shouty when turned up, through my speakers (Kef Refs). Different speakers could well have yielded a different result.

Another unusual, delicate sounding brand, is Coda....but may be hard to find here.

 

[Green Bow]

I nearly forgot Harbeth. However I found the P3ESR not low enough in frequency reponse. Then the next Harbeth up too big.

You reminded me though, so I am going to have to take another look.

 

[CnoEvil]

I nearly forgot Harbeth. However I found the P3ESR not low enough in frequency reponse. Then the next Harbeth up too big.

You reminded me though, so I am going to have to take another look.

Given that, you should also look at the Spendor Classic range like the 3/1s.

 

[BigH]

I found more powerful amps better at low volume, the difference between 50 and 100W is not that great, it's not much loud in dbs terms. More power has more control, I can play my amp at really low volume, much better than my old 40W Arcam where one channel would be louder. If the volume control is an issue then you can always fit attenuators.

 

[CnoEvil]

I didn't want to necessarily mention amplifier, because I thougth to would turn to debate, as I said.

That might sound like I am reacting harsh to yourself and Mark Rose-Smith, but that's not what I mean. Not at all.

That's all fair enough...and I certainly didn't mean to take the conversation in an unhelpful direction.

FWIW. It's the quality of the amp and its power supply, rather than the amount of Watts it produces that's important ...provided it can drive the speakers.

Re WHF reviews...its a starting point, but personally, I disagree enough with what they like, that it's no more than that.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

no offence taken mate.

BTW I use pmc twenty 21's pretty close to the wall (around 10-13cm)but away from side walls and I would assume the twenty5 21's to be similar performing...I remember what hi-fi declaring that the little twenty 21's performed best at higher volumes but I find this really isn't the case...as long as they've got that wall behind them for some reinforced bass response they are actually quite stellar little performers at low listening levels......they work well with naim and another person whom I shan't name used his pmc's with cyrus and seemed to really like the sound....oh and electro also uses pmc's with electrocompaniet all be it they are rather large floorstanders.

 

[Green Bow]

I just looked up the Dynaudio Emit M10 which I have: against the Dynaudio Special Forty.

They both have the same 6ohm drive resistance, and both have the same 86dB sensitivity. The cabinets are not too disimmilar in size.

The Rega Brio 50W drives the Emit M10 perfectly, as far as I can hear. I can listen to them all day long, and do. No fatigue. No lack in body, and no lack in detail. ... If I missing some quality using only the Brio's 50w, then I am not aware of it.

(I mean I do wonder how my system would sound with a beefier amplifier, but I never worry about it.)

I can't really consider a louder amplifier because I won't be able to easily select a listenable volume. I only get about 20% of my amplifiers volume to play with anyway. Then when considering we like to finely tune volume sometimes, I need all that 20%. Volume needs adjusting when e.g were are tired, or some music needs to be at cetain volume. ... Honestly sometimes my amp runs on only a few % volume. ... I am thinking I need a quieter amp, so I can have some play on the volume wheel.

I like What Hi-Fi's review of the Moon 240i though, in that it mentions it's listenability at low volumes. However it's not just What HiFi like that amplifier. All the pro reviewers do. HiFi Choice talk about it being a goldilocks zone amp. Or suitable to all music types. (Or neutral, just the way I like my kit.) ... Funny though, I bought a back-dated copy of HiFi Choice for the Moon 240i review. Only to find it has the same sound quality information as the free online review. (Yet the online review said, "Read the full reveiw in issue 430" ")

Since the Moon 240i is equipped with an overpowered power supply, and reviewed as good at low volumes, I am happy. This is what What HiFi said,
"What’s more, you don’t have to worry about upsetting your neighbours to enjoy the Moon to its fullest. It’s a rare thing for an amplifier to sound so engaging at quieter volumes." Read more at https://www.whathifi.com/moon/240i/review#Ku11V7EBbw2TPIYQ.99 Sounds perfect for me. My only concern as I said is that it only has two RCA inputs that I can use. While I only use two on my Brio, but I'd like a spare.

 

[Gray]

Wait until you've settled on some speakers Green Bow, then see how your volume control issues are.

You may have heard of these attenuators (Doug on here uses and has mentioned them) designed to give a more useable volume control range:

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

As for speakers. I'm another one whose got PMC twenty21 and I'm bound to say they're good aren't I? They are, you wouldn't be disappointed with them. Although PMC still sell the twenty range, it seems they're now only available in the one, 'jet black', finish. Note that jet black is more black ash than the 'diamond black' gloss finish shown in the Hi-Fi News review (below).

I know you're considering the larger 22, maybe from the newer twenty5 range, but don't rule out the smaller models through any fear of inadequate bass.

Seen the old 21 reviews? Including these:

http://pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/twenty21%20review%20hifi%20news_web.pdf

http://pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/HiFi%20World%20twenty21%20review%20Sept%2012%20_web.pdf

http://pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/AVTech_award_PMC_speak_web.pdf

...and the twenty5 21/22 are said to be better. Be good if you can get to compare them.

 

[Leeps]

Figures that amps refer to has no bearing whatsoever on whether they will play well at low listening volumes......that tends to be a speaker trait.....another thing is...the speakers you're looking at will need more than a fifty watts per channel amplifier......even my little pmc twenty 21's love a amp with some juice......you usually find that some little standmounts require a amp with a beefy power supply and decent wattage output and are in some cases harder to drive than equivalent price floorstanding speakers.

+1

Often speakers have a sweet spot at a certain volume level where they begin to liven up and perform at their best. My Ruarks retain their detail and interest at surprisingly low levels which is one reason why I love them. But some of my old Monitor Audios sounded fairly plain and flat at low levels and needed more volume to get them singing.

You really need to experiment with this. By all means put a shortlist together, but try to listen to as many speakers as you can.

At this year's Bristol show there were a few speakers and amps I was looking forward to hearing based on reviews and I knew within less than a minute that I didn't like them at all. Rather than asking dealers to demo specific models for you, you're better off using their experience and describing the characteristics you're looking for and letting them come up with suggestions. Certainly at the Bristol show some of my favourite set-ups I heard weren't on a perceived shortlist at all - they were real surprises.

 

[JamesMellor]

Dali menuet. My pair are 20+ years old they are tiny but the wall sections are 25mm thick. They've never stopped making them and you'll grow old trying to find a bad review of them. £800 in the current version.

James