Green Bow said:
FWIW. Both Arcam and Musical Fidelity use decent Power Supplies...and Arcam are about to release a new range, with digital connections.
FWIW. Both Arcam and Musical Fidelity use decent Power Supplies...and Arcam are about to release a new range, with digital connections.
Gray
Well-known member
Green Bow said:
...with one of these, effectively giving you 5 available inputs:
http://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/bt31/av-control-box-2-way-rca/dp/AV09358?ost=av09358&ddkey=http%3Aen-CPC%2FCPC_United_Kingdom%2Fsearch
I have a worry about auditioning equipment, that I should mention.
I actually prefer to aim at equipment that pro reviewers agree on. Also equipment that is tuned neutrally, meaning not bass or treble heavy, or soft or hard sounding.
The reason why relates to my experience when I bought a Chord Mojo DAC. I upgraded from a Meridian Explorer, and it took me about a week before I started to think, ok maybe. Then by ten days I was relaxing, and by two weeks I was becoming convinced. Initially the Mojo sounded bright, metallic, and hollow. .. However over time I worked out that, I was comparing too closely the Mojo to the Explorer. I was hearing the similarities, and focusing too hard on the new stuff. Therefor only hearing parts of the Mojo.
After about a month, I was a total Chord lover. Going back to the Explorer is not such a bad idea. It sounds less detailed but nice and warm and smooth. A good DAC in its own right. Going back to the Mojo however and all was right again, in a different way. ... I moved on from the Mojo now though.
What it means is that listening to new kit might not go so well. A superb amplifier, might sound off because of what I am used to. Especially if paired with excellent speakers.
Another example is when I had a listen to the Rega Elex-R, after owning the Rega Brio for a few months. The Elex-R sounded so thin, I barely recognised some of my favourite music. I could not listen to it. It sounded so different, I couldn't really hear it. In the shop I switched over to the Brio, and all was good. .. I know the Elex - R, is said to be a little leansounding. However I was out of my depth with it, in the time I had with it. I could hear the soundstage more focused, which meant more accuracy. However all the thinness was too much, which wasn't necessarily amplifier leaness. I was comparing it with the 'image' in my mind of my Brio. All the extra detail (or performance) was out-shining me.
Therefor, sometimes I think it's best to put a little trust in pro-reviewers, whose income partly depends on mags sold. Meaning too many false reviews and readers will go elsewhere. .. That's risky, maybe, but they get to listen to all levels of audio, and can become accustomed to it. I don't. .. As long as reviews all tie up across the board, like the Rega Brio, you can't go wrong. Same with the Moon 240i. No-one has a bad word to say about it. ... Whereas e.g. the Naim Supernait 2 has only one review, so it's a hard choice.
I actually prefer to aim at equipment that pro reviewers agree on. Also equipment that is tuned neutrally, meaning not bass or treble heavy, or soft or hard sounding.
The reason why relates to my experience when I bought a Chord Mojo DAC. I upgraded from a Meridian Explorer, and it took me about a week before I started to think, ok maybe. Then by ten days I was relaxing, and by two weeks I was becoming convinced. Initially the Mojo sounded bright, metallic, and hollow. .. However over time I worked out that, I was comparing too closely the Mojo to the Explorer. I was hearing the similarities, and focusing too hard on the new stuff. Therefor only hearing parts of the Mojo.
After about a month, I was a total Chord lover. Going back to the Explorer is not such a bad idea. It sounds less detailed but nice and warm and smooth. A good DAC in its own right. Going back to the Mojo however and all was right again, in a different way. ... I moved on from the Mojo now though.
What it means is that listening to new kit might not go so well. A superb amplifier, might sound off because of what I am used to. Especially if paired with excellent speakers.
Another example is when I had a listen to the Rega Elex-R, after owning the Rega Brio for a few months. The Elex-R sounded so thin, I barely recognised some of my favourite music. I could not listen to it. It sounded so different, I couldn't really hear it. In the shop I switched over to the Brio, and all was good. .. I know the Elex - R, is said to be a little leansounding. However I was out of my depth with it, in the time I had with it. I could hear the soundstage more focused, which meant more accuracy. However all the thinness was too much, which wasn't necessarily amplifier leaness. I was comparing it with the 'image' in my mind of my Brio. All the extra detail (or performance) was out-shining me.
Therefor, sometimes I think it's best to put a little trust in pro-reviewers, whose income partly depends on mags sold. Meaning too many false reviews and readers will go elsewhere. .. That's risky, maybe, but they get to listen to all levels of audio, and can become accustomed to it. I don't. .. As long as reviews all tie up across the board, like the Rega Brio, you can't go wrong. Same with the Moon 240i. No-one has a bad word to say about it. ... Whereas e.g. the Naim Supernait 2 has only one review, so it's a hard choice.
By the way, please and thank you for all the ideas so far. I need to read more about a couple of the speakers suggested.
I am wondering whether I would get help, starting an amplifier thread though, for last minute suggestions. There's often something new arrived that you didn't see, that everyone loves.
I am wondering whether I would get help, starting an amplifier thread though, for last minute suggestions. There's often something new arrived that you didn't see, that everyone loves.
Green Bow said:
IMO. The first thing to do when chosing a system, is understand how you like the music presented.
Generally, people fall into 2 groups:
1] Those who like a very clean, detailed, neutal and somewhat forward presentation....I'm thinking of brands like Focal, Triangle, Cyrus, Bryston and Rotel. Generally, Active speakers appeal to this group.
2] Those who like a smoother, more organic and musical experience...that is still detailed and exciting....I'm thinking of brands like Pathos, Electrocompaniet, Arcam, Luxman, Sonus Faber, Spendor and Harbeth. Generally Valves appeal to this group.
The added complication, is good results can be had by matching brands from each group eg. Unison Research Valve Amp with Focal Speakers.
If you dem (and you should), do not pressurize yourself into liking something...just trust your gut. If you don't like it, or even love it, move on. When you hear the "Right" sound (for you), you will know it...because you will love what it does.
There is a huge variety of different kit out there...but it all starts with understanding your own preference first.
rainsoothe
Well-known member
Green Bow said:
Naim have never NOT been class leaders in the amp department. They have, however, a "love it or hate it" house sound, emphasizing rhythmical flow to the detriment (on some models) of timbral accuracy or 3D soundstage (which, imo, is a non-issue, since almost no live music does the 3d thing, but lots of audiophiles like that type of sound). Even if I can't steer away from the Naim sound, it was pretty hard for me to find a good balance in my room. But the defining feature is present on all their gear: the rhythmic backbone and forward momentum of the music.
BigH
Well-known member
Green Bow said:
I do find your post a bit contradictory. You say you like the Rega Brio but then you say you want a neutral amp. You tried the Rega Elex and found it too lean and detailed, you are probably hearing more bass control and less distortion. I don't think the Moon will be you cup of tea from some reviews I have read. Maybe you should consider Class A or Tube amps? But I think speakers make more difference to how the sound is presented. I would go to auditionings with an open mind as CNO says you will know when you hear the right system, for me it's when you forget about hifi and just want to play more music.
I did read a good long review of the Naim 5si in conclusion, described at fractionally erring on the thin side timbrally. However so fractionally, so that you would not really care.
Well the previous iterations of the Brio were brighter sounding. The new Brio 2017, has toned this in and is hassle free to partner.
The Moon 240i, I expct will be smoother and more neutral still. More to my liking. The Brio however is fabulous for the money, and widely agreed upon to be right all round for the money.
By the way, I didn't say the Elex - R was too detailed. I implied it was probably a case of the amplifier was too detailed for me to take straight in. To be able to quickly evaluate, if it was brightness or detail that was overpowering me. That and the explanation of adjusting to the Mojo over weeks, was the while point of that post. Yeah, right.
The Moon 240i, I expct will be smoother and more neutral still. More to my liking. The Brio however is fabulous for the money, and widely agreed upon to be right all round for the money.
By the way, I didn't say the Elex - R was too detailed. I implied it was probably a case of the amplifier was too detailed for me to take straight in. To be able to quickly evaluate, if it was brightness or detail that was overpowering me. That and the explanation of adjusting to the Mojo over weeks, was the while point of that post. Yeah, right.
BigH
Well-known member
End of the day the Brio is a budget amp, yes some people like that sort of sound. I was not impressed, I thought the Creek 50A was far better and that gets excellent reviews, one Hifi mag. had it as it's amp. of the year. Have not heard the Moon so I can't comment and that is in a different price bracket. Problem with auditions is hearing all these products at the same dealer.
Have you ever heard, any system, anywhere, that blew your socks off?
Which of the 2 catagories that I described, do you think you fall into?
Have you ever heard a Valve or Class A amp (like Sugden)?
What sort of music do you like (sorry if I've missed this)?
Which of the 2 catagories that I described, do you think you fall into?
Have you ever heard a Valve or Class A amp (like Sugden)?
What sort of music do you like (sorry if I've missed this)?
gasolin
Well-known member
Gray said:
god d.......... recommend such a cheap piece of crap for a expensive high end amp, what the hell where you thinking
insider9
Well-known member
If you're considering Dynaudio Special 40 look at Densen (whatever model is in your budget). It's a seriously musically satisfying pairing.
And 100% agree quality over quantity. Depending on speakers you choose Hegel wouldn't be a bad call either.
And 100% agree quality over quantity. Depending on speakers you choose Hegel wouldn't be a bad call either.
insider9 said:
Haha, I nearly picked up the phone today, to talk about the Moon 240i amplifier. Still might. About the only thing holding me back with the Moon 240i is, only two RCA inputs. It's all I use at the moment though. ......... Thank you for the heads up about Densen. I can't remember if I heard of them. Interesting looking specs.
CnoEvil said:
Yes, I owned a class A amplifier once. It was OK. .. I seriously did not like the heat from it. It made it awkward to stack without a dedicated stand. I took it to university with me.
I just like my kit to be nuetral.
My music tastes are not genre specific.
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
I am struggling to find input level across the RCA terminals though.
Also I am struggling with a comment What HiFi made about the ISX Reference. They said, quote,
"Stereo imaging is lovely and precise: the Reference has one of the most spacious and uncluttered presentations we’ve heard. Its dynamics are strong and rendered with enthusiasm, though there’s only so far 50W per channel can go when it comes to delivering scale or the full force of music.
Push too hard and the amplifier’s sound loses its impressive separation and starts to clog up."
Read more at https://www.whathifi.com/lavardin/isx-reference/review#IZcujGrFVdPWvS2G.99
I am not sure if this means, push the volume too hard and it goes a bit wrong. Or find a piece far too complex and it goes a bit wrong. I think the former, meaning too much volume. It does however suggest that volume is limited below the 50W/ch, that this amplifier, is specified for. Not meaning it's quiter than 50W/ch. More that you won't get to use all of, or most of it, if you want.
I know that as of now, I have no use for more even half of my 50W/ch amplifier. (Albeit at about 63W/ch at 6ohms.) However I may use more of it in another room, or set up later.
I'd really love more than just one review of this amplifier too.
Also I am struggling with a comment What HiFi made about the ISX Reference. They said, quote,
"Stereo imaging is lovely and precise: the Reference has one of the most spacious and uncluttered presentations we’ve heard. Its dynamics are strong and rendered with enthusiasm, though there’s only so far 50W per channel can go when it comes to delivering scale or the full force of music.
Push too hard and the amplifier’s sound loses its impressive separation and starts to clog up."
Read more at https://www.whathifi.com/lavardin/isx-reference/review#IZcujGrFVdPWvS2G.99
I am not sure if this means, push the volume too hard and it goes a bit wrong. Or find a piece far too complex and it goes a bit wrong. I think the former, meaning too much volume. It does however suggest that volume is limited below the 50W/ch, that this amplifier, is specified for. Not meaning it's quiter than 50W/ch. More that you won't get to use all of, or most of it, if you want.
I know that as of now, I have no use for more even half of my 50W/ch amplifier. (Albeit at about 63W/ch at 6ohms.) However I may use more of it in another room, or set up later.
I'd really love more than just one review of this amplifier too.
Green Bow said:
Here you go: http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/lavardin-model-isx-integrated-amplifier/
Lavardin and Harbeth are all about putting musical enjoyment first, rather than chasing specs, or going for an initial 'showboat" impression.
Only a listen will convince you one way, or another.
Gray
Well-known member
gasolin said:
Merely, gasolin, I was thinking that, if his heart was set on that particular amp and he was indeed having to, as he said, manage the amount of inputs he was using....it would be more convenient than swapping leads (of possibly non-critical sources) over by hand.
The 'cheap piece of crap', as you're probably aware, is a rotary signal switch within a metal enclosure. You may also be aware that inside some expensive amps you will find just that, a rotary signal switch inside a metal enclosure.
True, you'd expect a high quality switch inside a highly priced amp, but don't be too guided by price, you've decided that criteria makes the item crap, but I wouldn't bet on you actually hearing any negative effects from it in practice.
Perhaps if it were on sale for say, £85, it may have helped from your point of view.
Macspur
Well-known member
CnoEvil said:
+1 I've heard the two brands together, all be it the entry level Lavardin and it still worked beautifully.
Mac
www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
Electro
Well-known member
rainsoothe said:
I absolutely disagree with the live music 3D statement, I don't know what type of live music or venues you have been to but you are welcome to come with me to a gig at some point in the future and I will show you 3D live music !
It's a pity you could not have come with me to the Union Chapel last week to hear Lizz Wright, it was stunning 3 dimentional music with a huge ambient soundfield.
CnoEvil said:
Thank you, but that's the Lavardin ISx integrated amplifier. The one I was looking at was the Lavardin ISx Reference integrated. .. No worries though.
I was keen to press on yesterday, and almost got on the phonoe to buy the Moon 240i. .. Today I feel deflated, and less decided. I wasn't actually sure if I was decided on the Moon 240i. However it always seems be the amplifier I think I will have to buy.
I think I can mamage with its meagre two RCA inputs, as that's what I use now. Though another RCA input would be for safety margin. .. OK then I think. I can use its digital inputs.
My stumbling blocks are few:
The descriptions of it that pro-reviewers make. Nothing bad. They all say it's a bargain. However none of them seem to mention massive detail levels. It makes me think that it's a very tonally beautiful amp, and smooth and refined. However just maybe not a detail monkey. I know What HiFi say, "It doesn't sacrifice an ounce of detial, in being so smooth". Yet they don't bullet point its detail level. I may have just interpreted this wrong, becauase they descibe subleties not normally heard at this level. Maybe that's there way of describing its detail level.
It would have ben nice if its 50W/ch at 8 ohms, correlated to 100W/ch at 4ohm. Instead it's only 75W/ch at 4ohms.
If I then go up the chain, to a Moon that doubles wattage when speaker impedance is halved, there is the Moon 340i. A basic analogue or choice of DAC incorporated. However reviews on that are rare again.
Since it's such a minfield of pitfalls and lack of pro reviews, on many models. You feel like you are compromising on the best you find of what's left. Hence you think you are compromising. Not deciding so much, based of loads of inofrmation.
Green Bow said:
Apologies....though the "Lavardin Magic" will still be present in the cheaper model.
IMO. Moon sounds more "Hi-Fi". Lavardin sounds more naturally beautiful.
When I was looking at the Moon i7...the reviews went on about how sooth and refined it was and how many Watts it gave in Class A (all the things I like in an Amp). When I put it in my system, I found it a bit shouty. This is why I advise caution in putting too much reliance on reviews. They're good for shortlisting, but are not a substitute for listening.
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