What small factor high end speakers are there?

[Blacksabbath25]

I found more powerful amps better at low volume, the difference between 50 and 100W is not that great, it's not much loud in dbs terms. More power has more control, I can play my amp at really low volume, much better than my old 40W Arcam where one channel would be louder. If the volume control is an issue then you can always fit attenuators.

I agree about amplifier power and not all amplifiers are quick on the volume dial mine isn’t unless you give it a longer press but also I would of thought it would be better buying a amplifier with some reserved power and have some head room as well and not underpowered which could damage speakers or just buy some really good headphones if noise is a issue .

And it’s not very sensible buying speakers without knowing if speakers and amplifier are a great match on a sonic level and what ever speakers the OP buys will sound different at home .

But if the OP looking for a low Watts amplifier I would be looking at class A amplifier with a good set of speakers

 

[nopiano]

We’ve got this far and nobody has yet suggested active speakers. Acoustic Energy AE1 actives or the KEF LS50w might be just the trick. Especially as you aren’t trying to match to an existing amp.

 

[newlash09]

We’ve got this far and nobody has yet suggested active speakers.  Acoustic Energy AE1 actives or the KEF LS50w might be just the trick.  Especially as you aren’t trying to match to an existing amp.  

Could consider pmc result6 too if the op likes the pmc sound

 

[Deleted member 108165]

How far the volume dial travels relative to the sound output has nothing to do with the amps power, it is the design of the volume pot that controls the sound output aspect, (amp input sensitivity also plays a major role too). This is the marketing dept whose desire is to make the amp look more powerful than it actually is. Many amps these days have a tendency to get too loud too quickly with minute adjustments of the dial. Well designed volume pots will give far more rotation on the volume dial before becoming insanely loud, e.g. a poor volume pot will have a useable sweep of 07:00-11:00, a well designed one will give a useable sweep of 07:00-16:00.

 

[Bradley747]

they are probably considered too entry level for this thread but I use Dali Opticon 1 which are very compact, well made, timeless in looks and provide a very nice clear, detailed rich sound with my Cyrus ONE amp.

I would have loved the Dali Menuets and will still probably keep looking at them until I find a used pair on eBay

My Opticons were 350 EUR used so too good to turn down!

 

[gasolin]

Dali menuet 25,0 x 15,0 x 23,0 4 ohm and 86 db despite being small bass is surpose to be really good

How about these speakers ae1 active highly praised on whathifi by many users not shure if they are to big 300 x 185 x 250 http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/reference/ae1-active/

These krk also actives are surpose to be in a whole different league that the rookits http://www.krksys.com/krk-studio-monitor-speakers/vseries/v4.html both lots of bass and max spl is 110db WTF

 

[steve_1979]

B&W PM1

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi. There's plenty of good info here. Especially the points being made that you shouldn't let the wattage guide you. Doubling the amount of watts will only make a system sound 3 DB louder. Yes, a 100w amp will only go 3db louder that a 50w amp. But it will also have better control on the speakers, which means better everything, including low level listening. BUT that's not the main point I'm trying to make. Use reviews just to form a shortlist, but go audition for yourself and let your ears decide. Specs don't matter if you like the way it sounds.

In regards to the previous post, B&W PM1 do sound great, but they benefit from space around them, much like the Dynaudios would. The Special 40 seem to be getting a lot of attention, so they definitely should be on that shortlist, along with PMC, B&W and many others.

If you're looking for small ones, give Martin Logan Motion 15 a try as well, and if they need to go up against a wall, Guru speakers are a must audition as well, since they are designed for that.

And personally, I don't think looking for speakers first is 100 % the way to go, as I'm an "amp first" kind of guy. Not trying to convince you, just relieve some pressure, if there is any that reviews or hi-fi talk put on you.

 

[Green Bow]

I took a slight step back because lots of posts were telling me I needed more power. However the further I dug on the internet I found that not to be the case. I will explain this.

However it's worth pointing out a few things at this point:

1. Amplifiers that do 50W/ch are not quiet amplifiers, and they have a lot of power. They also provide more power when matched with lower impedance speakers. E.g. My Dynaudio Emit M10 are 6ohm. On a 50W/ch at 8ohm amplifier, 6ohms provide about 65W/ch. 65W/ch is a lot of power, unless you're in a large room. Any meduim or small room, and 65W will be enough. In the room I have my current amplifier and speakers, half volume is ear-splitting. In fact I never turned it above half volume, and I only did that once just for a stupid test to see.

2. The amps I am looking at have the same power rating, and the speakers the same impedance and sensitivity.

3. If lower power amplifiers were rubbish, they would not get staggering 5-star reviews like the Monn 240i. All reviews would say, "Buy a more powerful amplifier".

4. Lastly and more importantly I found this note, on HiFi Choice Guide to Speaker Impedance. It seems to explain away needing more powerful amplifiers. It explains that you don't need a more powerful amplifier to drive speakers better. You need an amplifier that exactly doubles power output at half impedance load. However it goes on to explain that these amplifiers are very rare. It explains that it's a case of getting an amplifier as close to that as possible that matters. (I will add more in my next post which I will get on and write now.) The Simaudio Moon amplifers do that, once you go up the ingrated amplifier line. The 340i and upwards do it. (However there are no reviews of the 340i to go on.) Anyway if you want to read more, it's here.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/guide-to-system-matching/18150

"Amps that have really well-designed power supplies will deliver almost twice as much power into half the load, so 20W into 8ohms becomes 40W into 4ohms and 80W into 2ohms. Very few exist that do this, but the closer they get to this, the more the amp is able to drive ‘real-world’ speakers, rather than just a steady state test tone on the laboratory bench."

 

[nopiano]

I took a slight step back because lots of posts were telling me I needed more power. However the further I dug on the internet I found that not to be the case. I will explain this.

However it's worth pointing out a few things at this point:

1. Amplifiers that do 50W/ch are not quiet amplifiers, and they have a lot of power. They also provide more power when matched with lower impedance speakers. E.g. My Dynaudio Emit M10 are 6ohm. On a 50W/ch at 8ohm amplifier, 6ohms provide about 65W/ch. 65W/ch is a lot of power, unless you're in a large room. Any meduim or small room, and 65W will be enough. In the room I have my current amplifier and speakers, half volume is ear-splitting. In fact I never turned it above half volume, and I only did that once just for a stupid test to see.

2. The amps I am looking at have the same power rating, and the speakers the same impedance and sensitivity.

3. If lower power amplifiers were rubbish, they would not get staggering 5-star reviews like the Monn 240i. All reviews would say, "Buy a more powerful amplifier".

4. Lastly and more importantly I found this note, on HiFi Choice Guide to Speaker Impedance. It seems to explain away needing more powerful amplifiers. It explains that you don't need a more powerful amplifier to drive speakers better. You need an amplifier that exactly doubles power output at half impedance load. However it goes on to explain that these amplifiers are very rare. It explains that it's a case of getting an amplifier as close to that as possible that matters. (I will add more in my next post which I will get on and write now.) The Simaudio Moon amplifers do that, once you go up the ingrated amplifier line. The 340i and upwards do it. (However there are no reviews of the 340i to go on.) Anyway if you want to read more, it's here.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/guide-to-system-matching/18150

"Amps that have really well-designed power supplies will deliver almost twice as much power into half the load, so 20W into 8ohms becomes 40W into 4ohms and 80W into 2ohms. Very few exist that do this, but the closer they get to this, the more the amp is able to drive ‘real-world’ speakers, rather than just a steady state test tone on the laboratory bench."

This is all good background, and something many regulars here are well aware of. But no article can help you decide what you enjoy listening to. And many of the most cherished sounds pitifully fail most of these theoretical tests, such as most valve amps.

You may note my own system happens to very capably double its power, and with my well designed 8 ohm speakers, with no nasty dips, it is “perfect”. But quite a few will never consider the amp because once upon a time they read something bad about Class D.

Just go listen to some stuff, please!

 

[Green Bow]

Sorry I meant the PMC Twenty5.22

Have edited it.

 

[Green Bow]

Yes I was aware about space for speakers. The Dynaudio are mentioned in the category of needing space. I think the PMC Twenty5:22 are a little more forgiving with the bass port being on the front. ... However overall I think I have enough space for the Special Forty.

Those Orphidian have been added to my list to look at too.

I had a dig at those TAD. I get the smiley face. Haha, the smallest pair costs about £12,000.

I found the B&W speaker that I passed on. It was the Bowers & Wilkins 805 D3, and this was because What HiFi suggested, "Sound best at higher volume levels".

Actually having low volume level listening is a requirement. It does however mean that the Bowers & Wilkins 705 S2, might be in contention. (Since it was not that model that I wrote off.) I will definitley look over reviews of those with a fine tooth comb.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

"Amps that have really well-designed power supplies will deliver almost twice as much power into half the load, so 20W into 8ohms becomes 40W into 4ohms and 80W into 2ohms. Very few exist that do this, but the closer they get to this, the more the amp is able to drive ‘real-world’ speakers, rather than just a steady state test tone on the laboratory bench."

Many do exist, they just tend to be expensive, an example would be the current Marantz PM-10.

 

[BigH]

I took a slight step back because lots of posts were telling me I needed more power. However the further I dug on the internet I found that not to be the case. I will explain this.

However it's worth pointing out a few things at this point:

1. Amplifiers that do 50W/ch are not quiet amplifiers, and they have a lot of power. They also provide more power when matched with lower impedance speakers. E.g. My Dynaudio Emit M10 are 6ohm. On a 50W/ch at 8ohm amplifier, 6ohms provide about 65W/ch. 65W/ch is a lot of power, unless you're in a large room. Any meduim or small room, and 65W will be enough. In the room I have my current amplifier and speakers, half volume is ear-splitting. In fact I never turned it above half volume, and I only did that once just for a stupid test to see.

2. The amps I am looking at have the same power rating, and the speakers the same impedance and sensitivity.

3. If lower power amplifiers were rubbish, they would not get staggering 5-star reviews like the Monn 240i. All reviews would say, "Buy a more powerful amplifier".

4. Lastly and more importantly I found this note, on HiFi Choice Guide to Speaker Impedance. It seems to explain away needing more powerful amplifiers. It explains that you don't need a more powerful amplifier to drive speakers better. You need an amplifier that exactly doubles power output at half impedance load. However it goes on to explain that these amplifiers are very rare. It explains that it's a case of getting an amplifier as close to that as possible that matters. (I will add more in my next post which I will get on and write now.) The Simaudio Moon amplifers do that, once you go up the ingrated amplifier line. The 340i and upwards do it. (However there are no reviews of the 340i to go on.) Anyway if you want to read more, it's here.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/guide-to-system-matching/18150

"Amps that have really well-designed power supplies will deliver almost twice as much power into half the load, so 20W into 8ohms becomes 40W into 4ohms and 80W into 2ohms. Very few exist that do this, but the closer they get to this, the more the amp is able to drive ‘real-world’ speakers, rather than just a steady state test tone on the laboratory bench."

Reviews are about promoting hifi products, have you noticed how many 5 stars there are, there are many more than all the 3,2 and 1 stars put together. How many bad reviews do you read in WHF?

Power is also about headroom so it cope with dynamic range, there are many articles on the subject if you are so inclined. As said 50w to 100 is only 3 bds, 100W is only twice as loud as 10W.

 

[Green Bow]

I think I have thought this through. I don't understand why the Special Forty would need vastly more energy than the Dynaudio speakers I am running now. I can't get my volume wheel above 10pm on teh volume wheel, with my current 50W amplifier. Mostly I listen to it on about 8pm - to maybe 9pm on the volume wheel. ............. I can't use a powerful amplifier.

The most powerful amplifier that I was considering was the Rocksan Caspian M2, or the Naim Supernait 2. (At about 80W each.)

The Emit M10 I have are 6ohm just like the Special Forty. They are mind boggling on this 50W per channel Rega Brio.

 

[Green Bow]

I didn't want to necessarily mention amplifier, because I thougth to would turn to debate, as I said.

That might sound like I am reacting harsh to yourself and Mark Rose-Smith, but that's not what I mean. Not at all.

It's because i can't use a powerful amplifier as I already said. I will not be able to turn the volume wheel without blowing myself out of my chair.

On my 50W Rega Brio, I can only turn it up a bit. If I had a 150 amp like the Roksan Black, it would be ridiculous. I would have too much sensitivity on the volume wheel. One small touch and it would be too loud. Like I said a post back. I am only using about volume of abuot 8pm on my volume dial.

This is why i was cautious about mentioning amplifier choice, because i would get bogged down explaining this. I can only use a lower power amplifier. I use my amplifier at about 5% to 15% power. Occassionally just a bit more. ... If a had a 100w or 150w amplifier, i'd be using about 2% - 5% volume. Like to see anyone get their volume right with that. You'd also need an amplifier that sounded good at minuscule adjustment on the volume wheel.

Secondly What HiFi actually recommended the Moon 240i with the Special Forty. Quote,
"Speakers-wise, we’d recommend the expressive, agile talents of the Dynaudio Special Forty standmounts or the Spendor A4 floorstanders as perfect partners."
Read more at https://www.whathifi.com/moon/240i/review#Ku11V7EBbw2TPIYQ.99 More speaker suggestions arrived though. One of the HiFi Choice back copies I bought was the sort of yearly round up. Suggestions are: Dynuadio Contour 20 (I think I looked at those before)..................Audiofilia AF-S2..............PMC Twenty5.21 (review here too).

 

[rainsoothe]

This is all good background, and something many regulars here are well aware of. But no article can help you decide what you enjoy listening to. And many of the most cherished sounds pitifully fail most of these theoretical tests, such as most valve amps.

You may note my own system happens to very capably double its power, and with my well designed 8 ohm speakers, with no nasty dips, it is “perfect”. But quite a few will never consider the amp because once upon a time they read something bad about Class D.

Just go listen to some stuff, please!

This is the point everyone is making. And on the subject of power, it's not that you NEED more power (even though more is usually better, but it's NOT the only aspect you should be considering - a 100w bad amp will sound worse than a good 30w one), but it seemed you were making a point in needing a lower power one, which should not be your main concern. Again, just make a shortlist with what you were considering, they're all good, and go audition - don't mind the specs, or the reviews.

 

[CnoEvil]

I took a slight step back because lots of posts were telling me I needed more power. However the further I dug on the internet I found that not to be the case. I will explain this.

TBF. Earlier in the thread, I said, "FWIW. It's the quality of the amp and its power supply, rather than the amount of Watts it produces that's important ...provided it can drive the speakers."

High Sensitivity in a speaker, makes the Watts in your Amp go further. The ability of an amp's power supply to cope as Impedance drops, is another factor...and with many modern Speaker designs, you are looking at below 4 Ohms as a minimum figure. If the amp can easily cope, then that will also make it sound more powerful than its rating into 8 Ohms might suggest.

Doubling Watts as Impedance halves is the ideal, but as has been said, is often in more expensive designs....but seeing the figure into 8 and 4 Ohms is usually a good guide regarding the robustness of the power supply.

To get a lively presentation at lower volumes imo often requires an Amp with good Transient Response and efficient speakers.

Anyway, theory is one thing and listening another.....when you hear the Amp/Speaker combination you like, Specs can seem less important.

 

[Green Bow]

EDIT: Apolgies to What HiFi, for the first paragraph in this post. I think my loosing posts i was writing ot, was due to me hitting backspace on the page. While I should have hit backspace while highlighted in the posts editor. . ............

There was loads of specs and stuff I had found online. Gone. .. Also like my shortlist of speakers taken from this whole thread. Gone. Replies to inividual posts, etc. Shortlist of the amplifiers I am looking at. Second time that's happened. .. Formatting goes mad on the webpage while you're writing and all your post is gone.

I can add this though:

I am actually avoiding active speakers, for a few reasons.

One being that because some come with DACs fitted, and I prefer my own DAC. (Even the legendary KEF actives, I doubt would not match a good Chord DAC.)

I like being able to upgrade individual parts.

If there is a breakdown, I don't lose amplification and speakers at the same time.

An amplifier generally has better connectivity.

 

[BigH]

EDIT: Apolgies to What HiFi, for the first paragraph in this post. I think my loosing posts i was writing ot, was due to me hitting backspace on the page. While I should have hit backspace while highlighted in the posts editor. . ............

There was loads of specs and stuff I had found online. Gone. .. Also like my shortlist of speakers taken from this whole thread. Gone. Replies to inividual posts, etc. Shortlist of the amplifiers I am looking at. Second time that's happened. .. Formatting goes mad on the webpage while you're writing and all your post is gone.

I can add this though:

I am actually avoiding active speakers, for a few reasons.

One being that because some come with DACs fitted, and I prefer my own DAC. (Even the legendary KEF actives, I doubt would not match a good Chord DAC.)

I like being able to upgrade individual parts.

If there is a breakdown, I don't lose amplification and speakers at the same time.

An amplifier generally has better connectivity.

Yes I agree about the forum although is better than it has been. Best to save everything before you use things like backspace.

You can still use your own DAC with most active speakers. Yes amps usually have better connectivity. The advantage of actice is the amp should be matched to each driver and it does not have a passive filter, which I think may affect low level listening, I used to find passive systems had a sweat spot on the volume, that is ok if it matches your listening volume.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think I will try to do my sort of 'all thoughts so far' post again.

The issue with power delivery doubling as impedance halves is accossiated with impedance not being fixed. (As you probably know.) When impeadance goes down and up due to frequecy of music played. The amp needs to produce the right power. Down to power delivery, and not overall power. (At least that's how I understand it.)

Overall power is something different, and means that you need worry less about partnering 4 or 8 ohm speakers for example. Basically because it can handle the push at high impedance speakers rated e.g. like 8 ohms.

To give an example, I have a 35 Watt Class A amp. It doubles its power into 4 Ohms and again into 2 Ohms.

My speakers have a Sensitivity of 90dBs and a minimum Impedance of 3.2 Ohms. This plays to the strengths of the amp, which relishes plummeting Imedance and needs high Sensitivity speakers.

If you reverse these specs, and have a speaker with a Sensitivity of 86dB, but is easy to drive, by not having an Impedance that drops below 6 Ohms...then my amp struggles to reach loud volumes in bigger rooms.

 

[Green Bow]

My amplifier shortlist:

Naim Supernait 2. (80W at 8ohms)

Roksan Caspian M2. (85W at 8ohms, 125W at 4ohms)

Moon 240i (50W at 8ohms, 75W at 4ohms)

Lavardin ISx Reference (50W at 8 ohms, 102W at 2ohms)

I intially decided against the Naim and Roksan, because they were louder. I could rethink though, however they are no longer class leading amplifiers anywhere. Plus reiews of the Naim are quite rare. .. I think for me, the Moon 240i is the strongest contender, because on paper and by review, it fits all my requirements. Meaning: the right sort of volume, (and it looks great, but whatever). Smooth neutral sound with fantastic detail, which is ideal for me and my speaker shortlist. Excellent value for money by all accounts. ... It's negative point, is its low number of RCA inputs, but I think I could manage that.

However I just can't quite shake off the Naim. It's such a shame that reviews of it are down to one, from What HiFi. I like more pro review impressions. The Lavardin ISX Reference would be amazing, as long it's not pushed too hard. I don't do that though, plus I love its simplistic looks. Again only one review of that particular amlpifier though.

My speaker shortlist is:

Dynaudio Special Forty (although I do not like the cabinet design on those)

PMC Twenty5.22

B&W 705 S2

Audiophilia AF-S2 (not looked at these much)

Orphidian Prophet P1 (maybe)

Speakers I have mostly decided against, because they review as not so hot at low volume.

B&W 805 D3

PMC Twenty5.21 (although users here say OK at low volume)

Special thanks to steve_1979 for the mention of the B&W PM1. They look like they might strike up a chatter with you when they are not playing music.

 

[Green Bow]

I think I will try to do my sort of 'all thoughts so far' post again.

The issue with power delivery doubling as impedance halves is accossiated with impedance not being fixed. (As you probably know.) When impeadance goes down and up due to frequecy of music played. The amp needs to produce the right power. Down to power delivery, and not overall power. (At least that's how I understand it.)

Overall power is something different, and means that you need worry less about partnering 4 or 8 ohm speakers for example. Basically because it can handle the push at high impedance speakers rated e.g. like 8 ohms. (Also when music pushes the impeadance up too.)

 

[ChrisIRL]

Try to demo Dali Rubicon 2 with a Hegel H90. A very fine and balanced pairing.

 

[BigH]

I think you will find, 2 or 4 Ohms will cause more problems than 8 Ohms.