What is good hi fi for you

[Gazzip]

Shadders, please give this a read. You need to project beyond the medical bent of the article, but I am sure you will see the point I am trying to make in relation to DBT. You have got me parroting somebody else's ideas now, you bad man (or woman, as I don't know you)...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/looking-in-the-cultural-mirror/201011/the-trouble-double-blind-placebo-studies

Hi,

DBT for medication has a placebo, DBT for hifi is a choice.

The definition for DBT is that the person conducting/operating the test, (not the testee) does not know what cable they are changing - so each cable could be inside the same coloured sleeve as an example.

Your reference is about placebo issues, NOT why DBT is wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

Yes but Placebo is an intrinsic part of DBT. Can you not see that?

 

[shadders]

Gazzip giving up on xlo thats a big mistake. I have tried out lots and lots nothing affects a system like xlo. See what you think of the isolator and see if you think i know what i am on about after that. Revisit when you have the motivation back and it will come back

Shadders give over with the trying to save face answers always twisting it. I am trying to have a converstion with you man not an arguement. Yout still stand by what you did as being enough but deep down you know that is not true nothing to do with the result. They might test 2 drug samples at once but they dont only do 1 test full stop.

Hi,

This is not about saving face, and I am not twisting anything. Everything I have stated is based on fact. Please provide the examples where i have twisted something.

You have been rude, demeaning, and denigrating, but I have not complained. Someone else has complained about your responses, you then complained about them.

You latest statement is that I only tested one cable, and your reference was that they test the same single drug on many people.

In this regard, it is about whether the drug has an effect on the person. For testing cables, you generally test two, else the person undergoing the tests has too many choices. Are you stating that DBT must use more than two test products/cables else it is invalid?

The most important point : -

You state that you change a cable and hear a difference. Other people change a cable and hear a difference, and you ACCEPT this. I change a cable, and because the result is not what you WANT it to be, I have done it wrong, or the test was wrong

You cannot state that everyone who BELIEVES that cables make a difference will be correct, and ANYONE who does not BELIEVE that cables make a difference, are incorrect in their results/methodolgy.

Regards,

Shadders.

Laughing -If that is not a saving face post i dont know what is... come on shadders you dont ever let up and ease off. I dont care what you think about cables but i was testing your personality and you are being very defensive over this. No need to be holds hands say yes i could have tested more that would have been a better test. But you cant budge even slightly for some reason you just twist it back dude. Stubborn man.

I wasnt complaining about Chebby i was making a joke of the situation because really that is what is was. My whole response was meant to be sarcastic hopefully someone found it funny anyway. People are wound up so tight about hifi and science on this forum. I think this thread shows that at least

I had to go down the police station earlier to give a statement on the recent murder of science

Hi,

You are not making sense, you are stating that none of what you have written was serious, then expect me to state I could have have tested more cables. For what reason would that be of benefit? To prove to you I am not stubborn?

You are not making sense. Again, if you make a change and hear it, it is correct by your statements, I make a change and don't hear it, you are saying I am incorrect.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

Shadders, please give this a read. You need to project beyond the medical bent of the article, but I am sure you will see the point I am trying to make in relation to DBT. You have got me parroting somebody else's ideas now, you bad man (or woman, as I don't know you)...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/looking-in-the-cultural-mirror/201011/the-trouble-double-blind-placebo-studies

Hi,

DBT for medication has a placebo, DBT for hifi is a choice.

The definition for DBT is that the person conducting/operating the test, (not the testee) does not know what cable they are changing - so each cable could be inside the same coloured sleeve as an example.

Your reference is about placebo issues, NOT why DBT is wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

Yes but Placebo is an intrinsic part of DBT. Can you not see that?

Hi,

DBT is that the person managing/conducting the test does not know which pills are real or placebo, and who is or is not in which group (control etc).

Where is the placebo in audio testing?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Gazzip giving up on xlo thats a big mistake. I have tried out lots and lots nothing affects a system like xlo. See what you think of the isolator and see if you think i know what i am on about after that. Revisit when you have the motivation back and it will come back

Shadders give over with the trying to save face answers always twisting it. I am trying to have a converstion with you man not an arguement. Yout still stand by what you did as being enough but deep down you know that is not true nothing to do with the result. They might test 2 drug samples at once but they dont only do 1 test full stop.

Hi,

This is not about saving face, and I am not twisting anything. Everything I have stated is based on fact. Please provide the examples where i have twisted something.

You have been rude, demeaning, and denigrating, but I have not complained. Someone else has complained about your responses, you then complained about them.

You latest statement is that I only tested one cable, and your reference was that they test the same single drug on many people.

In this regard, it is about whether the drug has an effect on the person. For testing cables, you generally test two, else the person undergoing the tests has too many choices. Are you stating that DBT must use more than two test products/cables else it is invalid?

The most important point : -

You state that you change a cable and hear a difference. Other people change a cable and hear a difference, and you ACCEPT this. I change a cable, and because the result is not what you WANT it to be, I have done it wrong, or the test was wrong

You cannot state that everyone who BELIEVES that cables make a difference will be correct, and ANYONE who does not BELIEVE that cables make a difference,  are incorrect in their results/methodolgy.

Regards,

Shadders.

Laughing -If that is not a saving face post i dont know what is... come on shadders you dont ever let up and ease off. I dont care what you think about cables but i was testing your personality and you are being very defensive over this. No need to be holds hands say yes i could have tested more that would have been a better test. But you cant budge even slightly for some reason you just twist it back dude. Stubborn man.

I wasnt complaining about Chebby i was making a joke of the situation because really that is what is was. My whole response was meant to be sarcastic hopefully someone found it funny anyway. People are wound up so tight about hifi and science on this forum. I think this thread shows that at least

I had to go down the police station earlier to give a statement on the recent murder of science

Hi,

You are not making sense, you are stating that none of what you have written was serious, then expect me to state I could have have tested more cables. For what reason would that be of benefit? To prove to you I am not stubborn?

You are not making sense. Again, if you make a change and hear it, it is correct by your statements, I make a change and don't hear it, you are saying I am incorrect.

Regards,

Shadders.

Take a deep breath shadders man and chill
You are wound up tight. I was being sarcastic at times with my use of language my grammar is poor i admit to that, my degree was in sport's science so what do you expect. Got a degree for jumping up and down all day.

I wasn't joking about everything obviously xlo cables are the best in the world thats deadly serious. What is good hifi there you have it.
Whats not good hifi
Your cable testing..

 

[shadders]

Gazzip giving up on xlo thats a big mistake. I have tried out lots and lots nothing affects a system like xlo. See what you think of the isolator and see if you think i know what i am on about after that. Revisit when you have the motivation back and it will come back

Shadders give over with the trying to save face answers always twisting it. I am trying to have a converstion with you man not an arguement. Yout still stand by what you did as being enough but deep down you know that is not true nothing to do with the result. They might test 2 drug samples at once but they dont only do 1 test full stop.

Hi,

This is not about saving face, and I am not twisting anything. Everything I have stated is based on fact. Please provide the examples where i have twisted something.

You have been rude, demeaning, and denigrating, but I have not complained. Someone else has complained about your responses, you then complained about them.

You latest statement is that I only tested one cable, and your reference was that they test the same single drug on many people.

In this regard, it is about whether the drug has an effect on the person. For testing cables, you generally test two, else the person undergoing the tests has too many choices. Are you stating that DBT must use more than two test products/cables else it is invalid?

The most important point : -

You state that you change a cable and hear a difference. Other people change a cable and hear a difference, and you ACCEPT this. I change a cable, and because the result is not what you WANT it to be, I have done it wrong, or the test was wrong

You cannot state that everyone who BELIEVES that cables make a difference will be correct, and ANYONE who does not BELIEVE that cables make a difference, are incorrect in their results/methodolgy.

Regards,

Shadders.

Laughing -If that is not a saving face post i dont know what is... come on shadders you dont ever let up and ease off. I dont care what you think about cables but i was testing your personality and you are being very defensive over this. No need to be holds hands say yes i could have tested more that would have been a better test. But you cant budge even slightly for some reason you just twist it back dude. Stubborn man.

I wasnt complaining about Chebby i was making a joke of the situation because really that is what is was. My whole response was meant to be sarcastic hopefully someone found it funny anyway. People are wound up so tight about hifi and science on this forum. I think this thread shows that at least

I had to go down the police station earlier to give a statement on the recent murder of science

Hi,

You are not making sense, you are stating that none of what you have written was serious, then expect me to state I could have have tested more cables. For what reason would that be of benefit? To prove to you I am not stubborn?

You are not making sense. Again, if you make a change and hear it, it is correct by your statements, I make a change and don't hear it, you are saying I am incorrect.

Regards,

Shadders.

Take a deep breath shadders man and chill You are wound up tight. I was being sarcastic at times with my use of language my grammar is poor i admit to that, my degree was in sport's science so what do you expect. Got a degree for jumping up and down all day.

I wasn't joking about everything obviously xlo cables are the best in the world thats deadly serious. What is good hifi there you have it. Whats not good hifi Your cable testing..

Hi,

I am not wound up, I am trying to work out what you are trying to refer to.

With the cable testing, you claim you hear a difference, and claim that when I don't hear a difference there is something wrong with my testing, or the cable was not high end.

You have made multiple statements, ranging from, I am on drugs, I have a vendetta against you based on a previous thread I had nothing to do with, you are testing my personality, I am stubborn, I am wound up, etc. I really don't understand what you are trying to achieve.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Gazzip]

Shadders, please give this a read. You need to project beyond the medical bent of the article, but I am sure you will see the point I am trying to make in relation to DBT. You have got me parroting somebody else's ideas now, you bad man (or woman, as I don't know you)...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/looking-in-the-cultural-mirror/201011/the-trouble-double-blind-placebo-studies

Hi,

DBT for medication has a placebo, DBT for hifi is a choice.

The definition for DBT is that the person conducting/operating the test, (not the testee) does not know what cable they are changing - so each cable could be inside the same coloured sleeve as an example.

Your reference is about placebo issues, NOT why DBT is wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

Yes but Placebo is an intrinsic part of DBT. Can you not see that?

Hi,

DBT is that the person managing/conducting the test does not know which pills are real or placebo, and who is or is not in which group (control etc).

Where is the placebo in audio testing?

Regards,

Shadders.

You describe the problem I have audio DBT with perfect eloquence, thank you. In pharmaceutical testing there are groups. Each group knows that they are taking something and that that something is a constant. In audio DBT the test subject has to be all of the test groups in one body and there is no constant. can't you see the fundamental issue with that test methodology applied to audio?

 

[ellisdj]

Youre reaching a bit there i apologised for the mix up regarding the vendetta. Dont forget i called you a politician and sales man as well. For the record i have never really read magazines per se. I have been curious and wanted to try as much as poss and hear as much as poss. These are from memory what i have tried Phono interconnects Cambridge audio red yellow and black ones cant remember the names atlantic Pacific i think Ixos yellow one cant remember name Russ andrews pbj Chord crimson cadenza chorus signature Graham Slee cusat 50 Lautus Norodst cheaper blue one and SPM XLO Signature 2 Unlimited and Limited Edition Cheap freebies, cheaper ones from ebay Really about 17 different ones over the last say 10 years. EBay helped you didnt have that luxury back in the day I bet some people who are curious have tried a lot more than that.

 

[JMacMan]

"The closest approach to the original sound".

Errr, thats it.

Not just to you, but to others who follow this discredited philosophy: bollocks. How can you possibly know.

Who discredited it? Audiophiles perhaps? Try asking the professional audio world..amongst whom most audiophiles are seen as being a laughing stock.

If there are no objective standards, and everything is subjective, I say that audiophiles are OCD self deluded, and Bose beats all when it comes to audio quality.

Now PROVE me wrong OBJECTIVELY.. lol...

Sarcasm and humour aside, I quite like Bose - their clock radios are excellent..

Cheers JMac

 

[shadders]

Shadders, please give this a read. You need to project beyond the medical bent of the article, but I am sure you will see the point I am trying to make in relation to DBT. You have got me parroting somebody else's ideas now, you bad man (or woman, as I don't know you)...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/looking-in-the-cultural-mirror/201011/the-trouble-double-blind-placebo-studies

Hi,

DBT for medication has a placebo, DBT for hifi is a choice.

The definition for DBT is that the person conducting/operating the test, (not the testee) does not know what cable they are changing - so each cable could be inside the same coloured sleeve as an example.

Your reference is about placebo issues, NOT why DBT is wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

Yes but Placebo is an intrinsic part of DBT. Can you not see that?

Hi,

DBT is that the person managing/conducting the test does not know which pills are real or placebo, and who is or is not in which group (control etc).

Where is the placebo in audio testing?

Regards,

Shadders.

You describe the problem I have audio DBT with perfect eloquence, thank you. In pharmaceutical testing there are groups. Each group knows that they are taking something and that that something is a constant. In audio DBT the test subject has to be all of the test groups in one body and there is no constant. can't you see the fundamental issue with that test methodology applied to audio?

Hi,

No, I cannot see issue. If you can tell the difference between cables, then to test this you need at least two cables. The test subject has to be effectively blind, that is they do not see the cable being tested. The person(s) operating the test have to be effectively blind too (double blind) such that they cannot know which cable they are plugging in.

In medical trials, the person receiving the pill does not know if it is a placebo or not, for the entire duration of the test. So what. What does this have to do with DBT in audio testing?

Double blind testing is that neither the test subjects, nor the people operating the test KNOW whether the pill is placebo or drug, where this translates into audio as I have described above.

It would be a bit silly if you never changed the cable so one group of people never got to hear the other cable. Don't forget, people are claiming they can hear a difference between cables, so I assume you agree that you have to change them to tests whether people can hear a change.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

Youre reaching a bit there i apologised for the mix up regarding the vendetta. Dont forget i called you a politician and sales man as well. For the record i have never really read magazines per se. I have been curious and wanted to try as much as poss and hear as much as poss. These are from memory what i have tried Phono interconnects Cambridge audio red yellow and black ones cant remember the names atlantic Pacific i think Ixos yellow one cant remember name Russ andrews pbj Chord crimson cadenza chorus signature Graham Slee cusat 50 Lautus Norodst cheaper blue one and SPM XLO Signature 2 Unlimited and Limited Edition Cheap freebies, cheaper ones from ebay Really about 17 different ones over the last say 10 years. EBay helped you didnt have that luxury back in the day I bet some people who are curious have tried a lot more than that.

Hi,

Why not just discuss the point and stop the personal remarks, in addition to "you are just testing peoples personality" or looking for a trigger etc. Complaining people don't post what you deem to be correct remarks, that is, it differs from your world view of audio. None of this makes sense.

Despite whether it is many cables or a few, you claim I have done it wrong as I obtained the wrong result, yet when you hear a single change it is right. You claimed I was set in my ways, yet refuse to accept any other persons experience when it disagrees with your own beliefs.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Thats another reaching response dredging up my comments from pages ago to take away focus - politics or sales tactic. Second one in a row

I didnt say you did the test wrong because you didnt get the result I want - never once implied that, thats your spin on it

It was your test and that was up to you, but you could have done the actual listening test more comprehensive and you are avoiding every way you can to agreeing with that for some reason I cant quite work out.

So testing your personality comment if someone is reading this they can get a picture of how you see this situation and the importance you placed on the listening test side of things which appears extremely little. Again thats up to you and fine by me

EDIT - sorry forgot to ask when was the last time you went and listened to a system all decked out with snake oil out of curiosity?

 

[shadders]

Thats another reaching response dredging up my comments from pages ago to take away focus - politics or sales tactic. Second one in a row

I didnt say you did the test wrong because you didnt get the result I want - never once implied that, thats your spin on it

It was your test and that was up to you, but you could have done the actual listening test more comprehensive and you are avoiding every way you can to agreeing with that for some reason I cant quite work out.

So testing your personality comment if someone is reading this they can get a picture of how you see this situation and the importance you placed on the listening test side of things which appears extremely little. Again thats up to you and fine by me

EDIT - sorry forgot to ask when was the last time you went and listened to a system all decked out with snake oil out of curiosity?

Hi,

Please stop with the personal remarks.

I have not put spin on it. I completed a few tests, with different cables and I heard no change. You have stated the cable used was not expensive, not high end, I have not tried enough cables etc. If the claim is that cables do indeed sound different, then a significantly thicker and more robust cable (phono to phono) should sound diferent - it did not. Biwiring - tried it, and no effect. You persist in claimimg cables sound different, and if I do not hear it, keep trying until I do.

What you are failing to see, and what others have stated, there is an expectation bias in operation, and physics/science provides no evidence that cables sound different. Only if a badly constructed cable with dire parameters may sound different.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Twisted again - my last fews post no mention of value, just lack of samples used

I can see clearly where you are on this dont worry - when was the last time you went and demo'd a system all kitted out with snake oil?

 

[shadders]

Twisted again - my last fews post no mention of value, just lack of samples used

I can see clearly where you are on this dont worry - when was the last time you went and demo'd a system all kitted out with snake oil?

Hi,

Can you please stop the personal remarks.

It is irrelevant when cables have been tested. Copper conductiviy/resistance has not changed at all. Insulation conductance and permitivity has not changed. The molecular structure of these components have not changed. PTFE today is the same as it was 30 years ago. Polythene is the same as it was 30 years ago. NO CHANGE.

The only thing that has changed is marketing pseudoscientific claims. If there was PROOF then the cable manufacturers will have presented it. They are relying on peoples gullibility to believe their claims, in addition to expectation bias. A high price means it must be true?

I have tried it, and heard no change. You do not know what makes a cable sound different (assumng that they do), so how could you EVER state I have tried the wrong ones?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

It was only a 2 line post where was the personal remarks? You missed my question as well

When was the last time you heard a system all decked out with snake oil?

EDIT - you missed typed - you mean wrong ONE singular - not ones plural

 

[shadders]

It was only a 2 line post where was the personal remarks? You missed my question as well

When was the last time you heard a system all decked out with snake oil?

EDIT - you missed typed - you mean wrong ONE singular - not ones plural

Hi,

The personal remark was "twisted again", and plural as you repeatedly do it. For some reason, you seem to think that a post you have made on a previous page is now irrelevant and the statements you have made must be forgotten.

If you are referring to, have I had demonstrated cables that cost £300 for a reasonable length, and within the last 5 years as an example, then never.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

The personal remark was "twisted again", and plural as you repeatedly do it. For some reason, you seem to think that a post you have made on a previous page is now irrelevant and the statements you have made must be forgotten.

That wasnt meant to be personal, I was just pointing out that you was not answering the question and just bringing up old content to divert attention away from it. You have done this quite a few times looking back over this thread as I have for this post, but never mind you answered the question this time thank you

Also I only pointed your grammatical error same as mine was previously pointed out surely no harm done

If you are referring to, have I had demonstrated cables that cost £300 for a reasonable length, and within the last 5 years as an example, then never.

Looking at this comment I am thinking back to all the systems I have listened to in the last 5 years - at shows other peoples homes and demo facilities I can only think of 4 systems from probably a 100+ systems that I have listened to that didnt have cables in costing £300 or more

In fact my last 2 visits to Bristol and certainly to the HiFi Deluxe show I can only think of 1 PMC demo that was using Van Damme LPOFC - that is 1 of the 4. The other 3 was at dealers personal demo facilities.

So from that I can only summise you have not attended a hifi show in the last 5 years - or you did but didnt listen to much?

Also in the last 5 years I have had multple dealer demos of different kit - I cant think of any of them where they setup kit with cable costing less than £300

So from that I can only summise in the last 5 years you havent been hugely active in going to listen to other systems at shows or demos from dealers?

 

[shadders]

The personal remark was "twisted again", and plural as you repeatedly do it. For some reason, you seem to think that a post you have made on a previous page is now irrelevant and the statements you have made must be forgotten.

That wasnt meant to be personal, I was just pointing out that you was not answering the question and just bringing up old content to divert attention away from it. You have done this quite a few times looking back over this thread as I have for this post, but never mind you answered the question this time thank you

Also I only pointed your grammatical error same as mine was previously pointed out surely no harm done

If you are referring to, have I had demonstrated cables that cost £300 for a reasonable length, and within the last 5 years as an example, then never.

Looking at this comment I am thinking back to all the systems I have listened to in the last 5 years - at shows other peoples homes and demo facilities I can only think of 4 systems from probably a 100+ systems that I have listened to that didnt have cables in costing £300 or more

In fact my last 2 visits to Bristol and certainly to the HiFi Deluxe show I can only think of 1 PMC demo that was using Van Damme LPOFC - that is 1 of the 4. The other 3 was at dealers personal demo facilities.

So from that I can only summise you have not attended a hifi show in the last 5 years - or you did but didnt listen to much?

Also in the last 5 years I have had multple dealer demos of different kit - I cant think of any of them where they setup kit with cable costing less than £300

So from that I can only summise in the last 5 years you havent been hugely active in going to listen to other systems at shows or demos from dealers?

Hi,

Whether it was the twisted statement, I am on drugs, a politician, a salesman, etc., they are personal remarks.

With regards to hifi shows, recent demonstrations, systems etc., it is irrelevant. People were having the same conversation 30 years ago. It is just that we did not have the Internet. One claim was that cables are directional, and arrows appeared on the insulation. No proof of this, but people bought into it.

Your continued claim of hearing differences is subjective, and belief you hear a difference is ignoring expectation bias.

As such, today's technology for cables for hifi is the same as it was 30 years ago, but the marketing pseudoscience statements maybe perhaps a bit more involved, wider ranging, and exorbitant, just like the price. Why don't you go to a cable company and ask them to prove why their cable is better than anyone elses. There is no proof.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

I think its very important to have reference point - the pinnacle, the jigsaw picture that we put the pieces together to try and look or sound like

Seems like you have not listened to that for the last 5 years - what reference point do you use to measure how good your sound is? You are not measuring with science just your ears so it must be an audio memory of some system sometime?

 

[shadders]

I think its very important to have reference point - the pinnacle, the jigsaw picture that we put the pieces together to try and look or sound like

Seems like you have not listened to that for the last 5 years - what reference point do you use to measure how good your sound is? You are not measuring with science just your ears so it must be an audio memory of some system sometime?

Hi,

Can you provide a definitive explanation of what good sounds like? It is subjective, and what sounds good to you may not be what another person prefers.

A reference system is probably exactly the same setup that they have in the studio, which has been used to mix the recording, as this is what the sound engineer etc., is basing the final sound on. Any other system is just an interpretation of this, and if you like the interpretation, then good for you.

This has nothing to do with the belief that cables sound different, and whether any test 30 years ago, or 16 years ago is valid or not.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Question avoided again just to point out.

What system have you heard that are you using as your reference.

Because if we make comments like this sounds better - that means its closer to the reference point so its very important

 

[shadders]

Question avoided again just to point out.

What system have you heard that are you using as your reference.

Because if we make comments like this sounds better - that means its closer to the reference point so its very important

Hi,

I use my own system as a reference point. I have not heard or referenced any other system. I don't think I could remember a system after a few days or a few years to say, another system heard can reliably be compared to said reference system.

If I buy a piece of equipment and it sounds good, then I am happy.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Wow thats one way to do it I suppose Shadders - what is your current system?

 

[shadders]

Wow thats one way to do it I suppose Shadders - what is your current system?

Hi,

I now use an Audiolab 8200AP, with Cambridge Audio Azur 650A, and self build transmission line speakers, which are from Hifi News a few decades ago. Speaker wire is 79strand.

I have other systems in other rooms, which sound ok.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont agree with your approach to hifi - I think its extremely limited, however I do appreciate your honesty

EDIT - your using an AV Processor pre amp - is your main system multi channel?