What is good hi fi for you

[iMark]

I quite like Kirk McElhearn's approach to outrageous claims from cable manufacurers. He is also the iTunes Guy at MacWorld. Here's a funny column about wireless playback.

http://www.mcelhearn.com/when-all-our-audio-equipment-is-wireless-will-cable-manufacturers-go-out-of-business/

His other colums are spot on too when it comes to audiophiles, cable manufacturers and their outrageous claims.

Another good one is this one, which is directly pointed at some of the waffle that you can read in the WHF magazine.

http://www.mcelhearn.com/audiophile-hi-fi-journalist-defends-expensive-cables-admits-he-believes-in-magic/

And here's a link to an article where different digital audio connections and cables were tested and measured. Guess what? They all had the same result!

http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-ethernet-cables-and-audio.html

 

[ellisdj]

IMark - what is your reference system that you compare to and current system at home?

 

[shadders]

I dont agree with your approach to hifi - I think its extremely limited, however I do appreciate your honesty

EDIT - your using an AV Processor pre amp - is your main system multi channel?

Hi,

My approach is that every piece of electronics or speaker will have their characteristics, and there is no right answer to what you like, only that you like what you hear. Any change becomes the norm after a few weeks. If something is absolutely dire, then I won't use it, but in general, I have never purchased a piece of Hifi and found it unlistenable.

I used to be analytical of the sound I was hearing, but then concentrating too hard made the experience much less enjoyable.

I use the AV processor as the preamp, as it has DAC chips found in most of the separate DAC's that can be purchased. I did build my own DAC, but I had problems with the clock chip - ultra low jitter (500 femto seconds) so got diverted on other projects.

Whatever the system is, most commercial designs are more than adequate for good sound reproduction. From peoples comments on my system, it is the transition from a midi system to separates that has the greatest change.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Thats not really what I meant - I meant not going out to listen to other systems - good sound is obvious - I have cracked it several times only to hear something better and realise I havent cracked it at all - then onto the next improvment.

Its great you do all your own diy stuff Respect - but surely you feel you could learn more listening to other systems - there are so many

 

[avole]

why not have ago at the abovementioned thread, ellisdj? It would make a change from you endlessly banging on about how worthless science is when is comes to hifi

 

[shadders]

Thats not really what I meant - I meant not going out to listen to other systems - good sound is obvious - I have cracked it several times only to hear something better and realise I havent cracked it at all - then onto the next improvment.

Its great you do all your own diy stuff Respect - but surely you feel you could learn more listening to other systems - there are so many

Hi,

It is just another interpretation of the sound. I am happy with my current system, so I don't see the need or have the urge for another system.

If you are happy then why change, or pursue anything else. If you are happy with your system, then why continually look for something else.

Another system is different, but not necessarily better or improved. If another system highlights a specific aspect, then it may be you end up going in circles, trying to modify every aspect? My interpretation is that it is a never ending pursuit for audio nirvanna which can never be satisfied - a change does not equal better, although we may think it does.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

I rarely do changes Shadders but I do a lot of improvements - it can be excellent and thats great but if it can be better why stop there. Why deny yourself the improved sound quality - dedication - whatever it takes to be the best - I want my system to be the best sounding system at any price - that is what I want. Why would anyone want anything else?

Listen to Wilfred Van Balen from Auro 3D and Galaxy Studios

His view is the better it sounds the more involved you become, the more the brain relaxes takes in the content and the whole experience becomes more emotional.

Music is an expression of emotion so the better it sounds the better that expression comes over

Plus the better it sounds the more you can show off to your hifi buddys when they come over - thats if you have any - I doubt IMark has got any....

 

[iMark]

IMark - what is your reference system that you compare to and current system at home?

My reference of how classical music should sound is a live perfomance in the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. If my system at home sounds similar that with recorded classical music, that's good enough for me.

 

[ellisdj]

IMark - what is your reference system that you compare to and current system at home?

My reference of how classical music should sound is a live perfomance in the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. If my system at home sounds similar that with recorded classical music, that's good enough for me.

Thats not really the same but its very good. You will never get a domestic room to mirror the acoustics of a live space like that so its unfortunately a folly exercise. However if you remove the effect of your own room / then get the freq response to a good balance (very hard) and get the system to a high enough level then you will hear the recorded venue in the content good as irt gets - but in my opinion if your room is adding to the sound you hearing your own rooms acoustic not the venues in the content - hope that makes some sense

 

[iMark]

Plus the better it sounds the more you can show off to your hifi buddys when they come over - thats if you have any - I doubt IMark has got any....

What a feeble attempt at a joke.

I don't buy HiFi to show off. I have HiFi to listen to music or watch TV/movies in a convenient two channel setup. People that come round say that it's better than stuff they've got at home. Not many people are that bothered about HiFi but they all agree that modern TVs sound like crap and quite a few of our friends and relatives have either connected their TV to a sound system or have bought a sound bar.

 

[shadders]

I rarely do changes Shadders but I do a lot of improvements - it can be excellent and thats great but if it can be better why stop there. Why deny yourself the improved sound quality - dedication - whatever it takes to be the best - I want my system to be the best sounding system at any price - that is what I want. Why would anyone want anything else?

Listen to Wilfred Van Balen from Auro 3D and Galaxy Studios

His view is the better it sounds the more involved you become, the more the brain relaxes takes in the content and the whole experience becomes more emotional.

Music is an expression of emotion so the better it sounds the better that expression comes over

Plus the better it sounds the more you can show off to your hifi buddys when they come over - thats if you have any - I doubt IMark has got any....

Hi,

Without changes how can you improve the sound?

The sound quality from my system is very good, and any modification won't necessarily improve, but it may sound different. I am content with my system, so my involvement in the music is probably as good as it is going to get.

For me, chasing audio nirvanna is a fruitless task, as there will always be something different, but this does not mean better. It has been said before, it is a law of diminishing returns. Whether you agree or not, all that matters is that people are happy with their system.

I always read hifi subjects in the press or online with scepticism. There have been too many claims which are so outlandish that looking back, you do have to laugh.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Imark it was just banter - I expected you to come back with some banter of your own - nevermind

 

[ellisdj]

Imark what would be your classical test tracks / albums.

I dont have a lot of classical and dont know it at all. Good to get new music if you dont mind please

 

[Gazzip]

You gonna do your system thread at some point ellisdj? You know my system pretty much inside-out but I don't have a clue what makes a good hifi setup to you?

 

[ellisdj]

Gazzip i was waiting until it was all done before i did it and its been work in progress. It was all listed on the sig until we had to remove it.

If you want come for a listen mate please let me know. I am in essex.

I like focus, soundstage but with a very full range sound. Thats the bit thats missing for me from most systems i hear. They are lean because of certain factors. Real life sound to me is never lean but thats just me.
I figured you might like the same with your speaker choice.

My system is av orienated but dont let that fool you. Is it as good as that gamut system no mate but its pretty good still. I would put it up against pretty much any other to a point for an overall listening experience. Movies are stupid good imo

 

[ellisdj]

Basics of it

Meridian 861 V4 with linear power supply and revelation one filter (instead m filter)

Bryston 9bsst

Kef Ref 3 speakers

2 x SVS SB 13 ultra subs

Audio PC - you need to see that to see what I have done.

LOTS AND LOTS of snake oil.

The best bit is my room- freq is still terrible like in every room but my rt60 is linear and low 0.2 right into the bass with a very low reverb / room echo right into the sub bass.
Sound is tight, really tight, no rumble in this room bass is tight for the most part.
Only issue with that type of room it shows up everything good and bad so i have been working on lowering noise to improve dynamics, soundstage clarity and to try and sweeten the sound to make it less digital.

I always suffered with lack of space to the sound. Narrow room and full range sound I didnt think I could get it.

The jcat usb isolator has changed that dramatically. You are in for a treat

EDIT i am only an average guy who lives in a small 3 bed terraced house with mrs and 2 kids. We built an extension they got the back room i took the middle room and the cinema room was born. I started a build thread on avf but 12 months later i changed it all after a visit to Gecko cinema. If you dont get out and look you dont know what good is and how much time your wasting accepting not as good as it can be. I appreciate money plays a factor but life is too short to be stubborn about this. It doesnt matter what it takes its just a case of doing whatever it takes imo.

 

[iMark]

Imark what would be your classical test tracks / albums.

I dont have a lot of classical and dont know it at all. Good to get new music if you dont mind please

I have no idea what kind of classical music you like or what composers you like. But one of the recordings I like best, both artistically and sonically is one I bought a couple of years ago as a double SACD: Mozart Symphonies 38-41 by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra under Charles Mackerras. This in on Linn records. There is a studio master file for sale in Linn's webshop. http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-mozart-symphonies.aspx The hybrid SACD is still be available through webshops, including Amazon.

The interesting thing with classical recordings is that I have great sounding LPs from the 1960s (like Argo records) as well as great sounding LPs and CDs that were recorded on early digital equipment in the 1980s. Sonically recordings on BIS, Pentatone and Channel Classics tend to be very good and are available on Hybrid SACD. Unfortunately the major record labels no longer produce Hybrid SACDs and release everything on Redbook CD.

Spotify Premium is a very good source for discovering recordings. When we like a recording very much we sometimes buy the CD or SACD.

Feel free to ask for other recommendations.

 

[ellisdj]

Thanks imark i have no idea what i like either or where to even start. Thanks for the pointers would have to redbook or tidal for me anyway. Thanks

Edit linn download as well obviously

 

[Gazzip]

Imark what would be your classical test tracks / albums.

I dont have a lot of classical and dont know it at all. Good to get new music if you dont mind please

I have no idea what kind of classical music you like or what composers you like. But one of the recordings I like best, both artistically and sonically is one I bought a couple of years ago as a double SACD: Mozart Symphonies 38-41 by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra under Charles Mackerras. This in on Linn records. There is a studio master file for sale in Linn's webshop. http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-mozart-symphonies.aspx The hybrid SACD is still be available through webshops, including Amazon.

The interesting thing with classical recordings is that I have great sounding LPs from the 1960s (like Argo records) as well as great sounding LPs and CDs that were recorded on early digital equipment in the 1980s. Sonically recordings on BIS, Pentatone and Channel Classics tend to be very good and are available on Hybrid SACD. Unfortunately the major record labels no longer produce Hybrid SACDs and release everything on Redbook CD.

Spotify Premium is a very good source for discovering recordings. When we like a recording very much we sometimes buy the CD or SACD.

Feel free to ask for other recommendations.

Given some of your comments about snake oil in this thread I almost choked on my soup when you mentioned SACD as your format of choice. You do know that SACD's have been scientifically proven to be the oiliest of snake exudations?

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Let me guess - you don't give a hoot about this science because you can clearly hear a difference between red book recordings and your SACD's?

 

[iMark]

Given some of your comments about snake oil in this thread I almost choked on my soup when you mentioned SACD as your format of choice. You do know that SACD's have been scientifically proven to be the oiliest of snake exudations?

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Let me guess - you don't give a hoot about this science because you can clearly hear a difference between red book recordings and your SACD's?

At the same time it is well known that SACD layers are very often made from better (less compressed) masters. That's why you can often hear a difference. To paraphrase Bill Clinton: it's about the mastering, stupid.

So basically you can't go wrong with a hybrid SACD. At worst it won't sound any different to the CD layer and at best you can listen to better master. And if you have a multi-channel setup you can listen to the surround mix too. What's not to like?

 

[Gazzip]

Given some of your comments about snake oil in this thread I almost choked on my soup when you mentioned SACD as your format of choice. You do know that SACD's have been scientifically proven to be the oiliest of snake exudations?

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Let me guess - you don't give a hoot about this science because you can clearly hear a difference between red book recordings and your SACD's?

At the same time it is well known that SACD layers are very often made from better (less compressed) masters. That's why you can often hear a difference. To paraphrase Bill Clinton: it's about the mastering, stupid.

So basically you can't go wrong with a hybrid SACD. At worst it won't sound any different to the CD layer and at best you can listen to better master. And if you have a multi-channel setup you can listen to the surround mix too. What's not to like?

Well, the price for one is not to like if there is a good chance it won't sound any different. You could also apply the same logic to expensive cables.

So basically you can't go wrong with an expensive cable. At worst it won't sound any different to the cheaper cable and at best you can listen to something that sounds better.

Even if the master on a SACD is less compressed than Redbook it will still sound exactly the same as the Redbook layer, given that the Redbook standard is good for the entirety of the human range of hearing. It will just take up more space on the disc and will require more processing for extracting and converting all of those additional, inaudible frequencies to analogue, which of course leads to more chance of jitter having an effect due to the increase of information being transferred. Oh yes, and then of course there is the big question about your loudspeakers frequency range capabilities for reproducing all of that information only your dog can hear.

You have however got me on the surround mix. Is that why you buy SACD's? For the surround mix?

 

[avole]

You do understand masterings can be very different, don't you?

 

[Gazzip]

You do understand masterings can be very different, don't you?

Yes I do. That is not however why most people buy/bought SACD. It is actually a convenient, post-rationalised excuse conjured up to hide their stupidity for investing in, and falling for, a promise of improved sound quality, which has been proven to be snake oil and marketing.

It is like somebody who spent £10K on 4m of speaker cable claiming they did it not because they thought they would get better SQ but because the terminations were better than on cheaper cable. They would be talking bollox now wouldn't they.

 

[Gazzip]

You do understand masterings can be very different, don't you?

Ellisdj was spot on with some of his comments over the last couple of days. There are certain members of this forum who have basically been laughing at another member's experience with cables, and yet some of those very same people, who have not even acoustically modelled their listening spaces, are introducing sources like SACD in to their systems?? Crazy. To what end? Even if SACD wasn't Snake Oil (which it has been scientifically proven to be) their systems don't look to be up to getting anything meaningful out of hi-res material anyway. There may be a wealth of technical experience/knowledge amongst those to whom I refer, but none of them understand hifi and how to maximise its capabilities, that is for sure.

 

[avole]

and ellisdj are incorrect. iMark clearly identifies the better mastering as being the reason why he goes for SACD, nothing else. You forget that part of the marketing was just that, the mastering on SACD was generally better than the CD layer, which is why imark and others go for that medium. Nothing to do with supposed improvement in the format. There is no parallel with cables whatsoever.

You need to read his post more closely.