Anytime's a good time. Welcome to the Forums, and thanks for being up-front about your identity
VickersHiFi:So... is this not a good time to say 'Hi' everyone? (being a KEF dealer, amongst others!)
Which company do you work for?
Seriously, welcome - sunny in York? Any offer on racks?
Which company do you work for?
Seriously, welcome - sunny in York? Any offer on racks?
Thanks for that everyone.
Its not so sunny in york today, but we will still do you a good deal... as always, just ask!
Its not so sunny in york today, but we will still do you a good deal... as always, just ask!
I'm in York tomorrow and Wednesday as it happens. You'll have to do me a demo with the KEFs vs ANOther brand and I'll tell it how it is!
No need... your Ikon 6's & ProAc's are far better than the Kef iQ range, so stick with what you have.
It was only so that I could dispel or confirm the 'awful' sound to the forum. I may pop in if I get time anyway just to have a look around
From my point of view, I like the presence of retailers on this site as they have far more experience of the products than most other posters. As long as they have the integrity to 'fess up' to any particular bias, including personal preferemce, then they can only deepen the experience base on the site.
Actually, I'm surprised not to have seen more threads led by dealers who may want to clarify the teams reviews or add to them with their experiences..'We had those speakers in and I agree with you to a point, but ....' sort of thing. It would certainly improve my opinion if I saw a retailer looking to expand their knowledge and share experiences.
For the original poster, that does not mean come on here, in cognito, and expound the virtues of your products whilst criticising the team and then, when replied to by many others, only reply to a select few that allowed you to try and save face.
Be a man and answer Clare (as she seemed to rebut your Kef based accusations very fairly) or sod off
Actually, I'm surprised not to have seen more threads led by dealers who may want to clarify the teams reviews or add to them with their experiences..'We had those speakers in and I agree with you to a point, but ....' sort of thing. It would certainly improve my opinion if I saw a retailer looking to expand their knowledge and share experiences.
For the original poster, that does not mean come on here, in cognito, and expound the virtues of your products whilst criticising the team and then, when replied to by many others, only reply to a select few that allowed you to try and save face.
Be a man and answer Clare (as she seemed to rebut your Kef based accusations very fairly) or sod off
I shall be taking a look around Vickers over the next couple of days. They have some nice kit (and a nice interest free credit scheme)
andyb190:For the original poster, that does not mean come on here, in cognito, and expound the virtues of your products whilst criticising the team and then, when replied to by many others, only reply to a select few that allowed you to try and save face.
Be a man and answer Clare
The OP seems to have burnt dimly but briefly - registered Sep 17, last seen Sep 18. Perhaps, Halley-like, he/she'll be back again in another 75-76 years....
Be a man and answer Clare
The OP seems to have burnt dimly but briefly - registered Sep 17, last seen Sep 18. Perhaps, Halley-like, he/she'll be back again in another 75-76 years....
Andrew Everard:The OP seems to have burnt dimly but briefly - registered Sep 17, last seen Sep 18.
I think the word for that is 'Trolling'..... But on the bright side, we got some rather interesting discussions out of this thread (and a lot of comedy - intentional or not)...
I think the word for that is 'Trolling'..... But on the bright side, we got some rather interesting discussions out of this thread (and a lot of comedy - intentional or not)...
Ajani:I think the word for that is 'Trolling'.....
As opposed to Octopo, who was clearly posting over the weekend while trollied.
As opposed to Octopo, who was clearly posting over the weekend while trollied.
Will Harris:Errrr your first and main contribution was to be incredibly rude about What Hi-Fi and the reviewers. Why would anyone respect you or even take the time to get to know you when your first words were enough to put everyone off you for life?Will, I wasn't being rude at all. I merely pointed out a concern of mine over the decision to give some better KEF's a lesser rating. And I'm not asking for immediate respect, that'll take time I know, but for regulars to gang up on new members isn't the way to keep people coming back to use the forum. A forum is for discussion, rather than sarcasm and sly digs, which there seems to be plenty on here.
Why don't you try saying sorry for being an ass and start over?I have nothing to apologise for. I haven't offended anybody. I haven't accused anybody of something they haven't done. I will continue to use this forum as I normally would, just as I would, or do, any other.
andyb190:Actually, I'm surprised not to have seen more threads led by dealers who may want to clarify the teams reviews or add to them with their experiences..'We had those speakers in and I agree with you to a point, but ....' sort of thing. It would certainly improve my opinion if I saw a retailer looking to expand their knowledge and share experiences.I agree this would be a good thing too. The problem is, disagreeing with the WHF team doesn't seem to go down too well, so this suggestion will only work if the dealer agrees 100%. There are a few dealers on here now, all quite open about who they are, and it would be nice to hear their views on review verdicts as well.
Why don't you try saying sorry for being an ass and start over?I have nothing to apologise for. I haven't offended anybody. I haven't accused anybody of something they haven't done. I will continue to use this forum as I normally would, just as I would, or do, any other.
andyb190:Actually, I'm surprised not to have seen more threads led by dealers who may want to clarify the teams reviews or add to them with their experiences..'We had those speakers in and I agree with you to a point, but ....' sort of thing. It would certainly improve my opinion if I saw a retailer looking to expand their knowledge and share experiences.I agree this would be a good thing too. The problem is, disagreeing with the WHF team doesn't seem to go down too well, so this suggestion will only work if the dealer agrees 100%. There are a few dealers on here now, all quite open about who they are, and it would be nice to hear their views on review verdicts as well.
professorhat
Well-known member
4LKN4:andyb190:Actually, I'm surprised not to have seen more threads led by dealers who may want to clarify the teams reviews or add to them with their experiences..'We had those speakers in and I agree with you to a point, but ....' sort of thing. It would certainly improve my opinion if I saw a retailer looking to expand their knowledge and share experiences.I agree this would be a good thing too. The problem is, disagreeing with the WHF team doesn't seem to go down too well, so this suggestion will only work if the dealer agrees 100%. There are a few dealers on here now, all quite open about who they are, and it would be nice to hear their views on review verdicts as well.
Brilliant - you even quoted Andy's comments above and deliberately didn't answer this part:
andyb190:For the original poster, that does not mean come on here, in cognito, and expound the virtues of your products whilst criticising the team and then, when replied to by many others, only reply to a select few that allowed you to try and save face.
Be a man and answer Clare (as she seemed to rebut your Kef based accusations very fairly) or sod off
4LKN4:The problem is, disagreeing with the WHF team doesn't seem to go down too well, so this suggestion will only work if the dealer agrees 100%
That's absolute rubbish and you know it - in fact I've seen many dealers disagree with WHF reviews. What they do is present a reasoned argument as to why they disagree and people take their arguments on board. Unfortunately for yourself, this is not what you did and this is why people gave your views no respect.
You might regain it, but we're all still waiting for your answers to Clare's responses...
Brilliant - you even quoted Andy's comments above and deliberately didn't answer this part:
andyb190:For the original poster, that does not mean come on here, in cognito, and expound the virtues of your products whilst criticising the team and then, when replied to by many others, only reply to a select few that allowed you to try and save face.
Be a man and answer Clare (as she seemed to rebut your Kef based accusations very fairly) or sod off
4LKN4:The problem is, disagreeing with the WHF team doesn't seem to go down too well, so this suggestion will only work if the dealer agrees 100%
That's absolute rubbish and you know it - in fact I've seen many dealers disagree with WHF reviews. What they do is present a reasoned argument as to why they disagree and people take their arguments on board. Unfortunately for yourself, this is not what you did and this is why people gave your views no respect.
You might regain it, but we're all still waiting for your answers to Clare's responses...
professorhat
Well-known member
Clare Newsome:
4LKN4, I'm afraid that again you're making massive assumptions about the way we work.
Yes, we work with reference kit, but no product is just tested with that alone. So we don't, as you say, just put speakers with a single amplifier. They'll be tested with the reference amp, a price comparable amp and often a combination we know they'll be commonly paired with (eg Rotel and B&W; Marantz and Mordaunt Short) so that we can make system-matching recommendations both in the review and on these Forums.
Secondly, our testing rooms are a mixture of acoustically treated and non-treated rooms, so we can see and hear kit in a range of environments and room sizes. But treated rooms gives a level playing field to all kit, as does testing with a team, not individual reviewers.
And onto reviewers. We have an incredibly experienced team, and groups of reviewers will work on different tests each issue, with lead reviewers overseeing every test. The review will be written by the tester who's spent the most time start-to-finish on a product, so they can convey everything from the set-up to the performance stages.
Are there disagreements? Occasionally, and we'll refer to them in copy, too (you must have missed that bit). But at the end of the day, the decision has to come down to a question of whether the product is worth the money the manufacturer is charging for it - whether, in short, it's something we'd wholeheartedly recommend any of our readers to spend their hard-earned cash on.
Finally, you mention us only printing positive reviews. Well, our rivals may be increasingly headed that way, but as a consumer magazine we strongly believe our readers need to read about as many products as possible, whether we feel they're good value or not.
Just a reminder...
4LKN4, I'm afraid that again you're making massive assumptions about the way we work.
Yes, we work with reference kit, but no product is just tested with that alone. So we don't, as you say, just put speakers with a single amplifier. They'll be tested with the reference amp, a price comparable amp and often a combination we know they'll be commonly paired with (eg Rotel and B&W; Marantz and Mordaunt Short) so that we can make system-matching recommendations both in the review and on these Forums.
Secondly, our testing rooms are a mixture of acoustically treated and non-treated rooms, so we can see and hear kit in a range of environments and room sizes. But treated rooms gives a level playing field to all kit, as does testing with a team, not individual reviewers.
And onto reviewers. We have an incredibly experienced team, and groups of reviewers will work on different tests each issue, with lead reviewers overseeing every test. The review will be written by the tester who's spent the most time start-to-finish on a product, so they can convey everything from the set-up to the performance stages.
Are there disagreements? Occasionally, and we'll refer to them in copy, too (you must have missed that bit). But at the end of the day, the decision has to come down to a question of whether the product is worth the money the manufacturer is charging for it - whether, in short, it's something we'd wholeheartedly recommend any of our readers to spend their hard-earned cash on.
Finally, you mention us only printing positive reviews. Well, our rivals may be increasingly headed that way, but as a consumer magazine we strongly believe our readers need to read about as many products as possible, whether we feel they're good value or not.
Just a reminder...
Ok, you seem quite bent on me answering them.......I don't think anything I say is going to be taken seriously, especially by you, but here goes.
Using budget kit has no value in the real world as it's not a likely scenario. It may ocassionally unearth a real budget star, but this doesn't really have any value to it when used with kit of it's own ilk.
I too have heard that these teated rooms are quite dead, which tend not to favour a lean sounding speaker, and favours fuller sounding speakers. This may be fine for testing, but just reviewing a speaker (in an unmentioned treated room) and saying it doesn't sound very good doesn't do it any favours. A leaner sounding speaker, like the KEF's, will suit many more rooms than one that produces too much bass, and genrally sounds better as well. Whether the KEF's were used in any other room than a treated one, or whether it was used with one or more amplifier, or an amplifier that suits them, is something we'll never really know for sure.
I can't say I've ever seen any disagreements mentioned in print, but I'll look out for them in future. And again, because we're all different, one reviewer may feel they're not up to scratch, whereas another might feel they'll be right up someone's street and worth every penny. I've never seen this situation in print. having said that, I've never read every copy cover to cover.
And the last point, fair enough. I was only mentioning how another mag does things. It meant that if it was reviewed in the mag, it was worth buying.
(Sits and waits for Prof Hats remarks.......)
Using budget kit has no value in the real world as it's not a likely scenario. It may ocassionally unearth a real budget star, but this doesn't really have any value to it when used with kit of it's own ilk.
I too have heard that these teated rooms are quite dead, which tend not to favour a lean sounding speaker, and favours fuller sounding speakers. This may be fine for testing, but just reviewing a speaker (in an unmentioned treated room) and saying it doesn't sound very good doesn't do it any favours. A leaner sounding speaker, like the KEF's, will suit many more rooms than one that produces too much bass, and genrally sounds better as well. Whether the KEF's were used in any other room than a treated one, or whether it was used with one or more amplifier, or an amplifier that suits them, is something we'll never really know for sure.
I can't say I've ever seen any disagreements mentioned in print, but I'll look out for them in future. And again, because we're all different, one reviewer may feel they're not up to scratch, whereas another might feel they'll be right up someone's street and worth every penny. I've never seen this situation in print. having said that, I've never read every copy cover to cover.
And the last point, fair enough. I was only mentioning how another mag does things. It meant that if it was reviewed in the mag, it was worth buying.
(Sits and waits for Prof Hats remarks.......)
4LKN4:I too have heard that these teated rooms are quite dead, which tend not to favour a lean sounding speaker, and favours fuller sounding speakers.
Heard? Heard where? And anyway, I think the OP was making exactly the opposite point about the speakers one (of our six) rooms allegedly favours.
4LKN4:This may be fine for testing, but just reviewing a speaker
(in an unmentioned treated room) and saying it doesn't sound very good
doesn't do it any favours. A leaner sounding speaker, like the KEF's,
will suit many more rooms than one that produces too much bass, and
genrally sounds better as well. Whether the KEF's were used in any
other room than a treated one, or whether it was used with one or more
amplifier, or an amplifier that suits them, is something we'll never
really know for sure.
All of which is done as a matter of course, as we have repeatedly mentioned here.
4LKN4: I can't say I've ever seen any disagreements
mentioned in print, but I'll look out for them in future. And again,
because we're all different, one reviewer may feel they're not up to
scratch, whereas another might feel they'll be right up someone's
street and worth every penny. I've never seen this situation in print.
having said that, I've never read every copy cover to cover.
They get mentioned quite often. You clearly need to read more before you make any more generalisations.
4LKN4:And the last point, fair enough. I was only mentioning how another mag
does things. It meant that if it was reviewed in the mag, it was worth
buying.
And clearly that mag's approach is reflected in its popularity.
Heard? Heard where? And anyway, I think the OP was making exactly the opposite point about the speakers one (of our six) rooms allegedly favours.
4LKN4:This may be fine for testing, but just reviewing a speaker
(in an unmentioned treated room) and saying it doesn't sound very good
doesn't do it any favours. A leaner sounding speaker, like the KEF's,
will suit many more rooms than one that produces too much bass, and
genrally sounds better as well. Whether the KEF's were used in any
other room than a treated one, or whether it was used with one or more
amplifier, or an amplifier that suits them, is something we'll never
really know for sure.
All of which is done as a matter of course, as we have repeatedly mentioned here.
4LKN4: I can't say I've ever seen any disagreements
mentioned in print, but I'll look out for them in future. And again,
because we're all different, one reviewer may feel they're not up to
scratch, whereas another might feel they'll be right up someone's
street and worth every penny. I've never seen this situation in print.
having said that, I've never read every copy cover to cover.
They get mentioned quite often. You clearly need to read more before you make any more generalisations.
4LKN4:And the last point, fair enough. I was only mentioning how another mag
does things. It meant that if it was reviewed in the mag, it was worth
buying.
And clearly that mag's approach is reflected in its popularity.
chebby
Well-known member
Andrew Everard:And clearly that mag's approach is reflected in its popularity.
In the world of journalism popularity is a dubious measure of worth.
I should stress that was not a comment about the KEF review or this thread or WHF's listening rooms or it's staff's reviewing technique. It's just that I have never accepted the argument that popularity equates with worth. Sometimes it is true but more often not. I think your response would have been more impressive without that last argument.
In the world of journalism popularity is a dubious measure of worth.
I should stress that was not a comment about the KEF review or this thread or WHF's listening rooms or it's staff's reviewing technique. It's just that I have never accepted the argument that popularity equates with worth. Sometimes it is true but more often not. I think your response would have been more impressive without that last argument.
chebby:In the world of journalism popularity is a dubious measure of worth.
I think your response would have more impressive without that last argument.
If that is your opinion, so be it. But greater sales suggest more people like and trust what they read, doesn't it? And in the real world, rather than this mythical world of journalism you mention, I think I'd rather be working on WHFSV right now than any of the other UK magazines.
I think your response would have more impressive without that last argument.
If that is your opinion, so be it. But greater sales suggest more people like and trust what they read, doesn't it? And in the real world, rather than this mythical world of journalism you mention, I think I'd rather be working on WHFSV right now than any of the other UK magazines.
How about write some reviews too, Mr. E?
I do like reading your HiFi write up, more of a in dept one, on Gram' but I couldn't justify buy a mag just to read only 2-3 pages
I do like reading your HiFi write up, more of a in dept one, on Gram' but I couldn't justify buy a mag just to read only 2-3 pages
But I do, occasionally. And it's 5 pages in Gramophone each month - Awards issue out on Friday has tests of the Yamaha CD-S1000/A-S1000 and the Holfi Xandra MP.
chebby
Well-known member
Thanks for the plug about the next Gramophone issue. I will probably get that one. I buy about 3 or 4 issues a year.
I am keeping up with all the reviews of the new Yamaha stuff especially the A-S1000/CD-S1000. (Including the WHF review of course.)
I hope to hear them soon. My Rega dealer has some Yamaha AV stuff. I just need to try and persuade him to stock the CD-S1000/A-S1000 as well.
Sorry to go off on a tangent to this thread's subject but I find new gear more interesting
I am keeping up with all the reviews of the new Yamaha stuff especially the A-S1000/CD-S1000. (Including the WHF review of course.)
I hope to hear them soon. My Rega dealer has some Yamaha AV stuff. I just need to try and persuade him to stock the CD-S1000/A-S1000 as well.
Sorry to go off on a tangent to this thread's subject but I find new gear more interesting
professorhat
Well-known member
Okay, wow, took enough to get a proper answer from you, thank you for eventually doing it!
4LKN4:Using budget kit has no value in the real world as it's not a likely scenario. It may ocassionally unearth a real budget star, but this doesn't really have any value to it when used with kit of it's own ilk.
I don't understand this statement - where does it mention in Clare's answer they use budget kit? It says:
Clare Newsome:Yes, we work with reference kit, but no product is just tested with that alone. So we don't, as you say, just put speakers with a single amplifier. They'll be tested with the reference amp, a price comparable amp and often a combination we know they'll be commonly paired with (eg Rotel and B&W; Marantz and Mordaunt Short) so that we can make system-matching recommendations both in the review and on these Forums.
No mention of the word budget in there, just price comparable. So if the speakers are budget kit, they are tested both with a reference amp, an amp which is price comparable for those speakers i.e. one which is likely to be used in the real world with those speakers and also one that is generally known to work well with speakers of that brand.
4LKN4:I too have heard that these teated rooms are quite dead, which tend not to favour a lean sounding speaker, and favours fuller sounding speakers.
As Andrew says, heard from who? How can I possibly expect to believe you if you have no credible source. Sorry, I need more than that, I'm not a News of the World reader so I tend to look for credibility and evidence rather than just believing what someone who just joined the forums "heard".
4LKN4:I can't say I've ever seen any disagreements mentioned in print, but I'll look out for them in future. And again, because we're all different, one reviewer may feel they're not up to scratch, whereas another might feel they'll be right up someone's street and worth every penny. I've never seen this situation in print. having said that, I've never read every copy cover to cover.
I do read each issue cover to cover (WHF and Edge are the only two magazines which interest me enough to do this generally) and I've seen the disagreements in print.
4LKN4:(Sits and waits for Prof Hats remarks.......)
You seem to think I dislike anyone disagreeing with WHF's opinions. What I actually disagree with is people coming on this forum and making baseless comments and accusations. You'll see it in a number of forum posts I've been involved in such as recent ones with people commenting on all Onkyo amps being faulty, in the past people attempting to spread the myths of Plasma televisions, others attempting to put people off trying out different cables for themselves. In all, I speak out against anyone making ridiculous claims they can't prove - in most cases, it's pretty obvious the person is just there to troll. In this case, I don't think you're actually trolling properly, but you are making very serious claims that you haven't proven. So the onus is on you really.
4LKN4:Using budget kit has no value in the real world as it's not a likely scenario. It may ocassionally unearth a real budget star, but this doesn't really have any value to it when used with kit of it's own ilk.
I don't understand this statement - where does it mention in Clare's answer they use budget kit? It says:
Clare Newsome:Yes, we work with reference kit, but no product is just tested with that alone. So we don't, as you say, just put speakers with a single amplifier. They'll be tested with the reference amp, a price comparable amp and often a combination we know they'll be commonly paired with (eg Rotel and B&W; Marantz and Mordaunt Short) so that we can make system-matching recommendations both in the review and on these Forums.
No mention of the word budget in there, just price comparable. So if the speakers are budget kit, they are tested both with a reference amp, an amp which is price comparable for those speakers i.e. one which is likely to be used in the real world with those speakers and also one that is generally known to work well with speakers of that brand.
4LKN4:I too have heard that these teated rooms are quite dead, which tend not to favour a lean sounding speaker, and favours fuller sounding speakers.
As Andrew says, heard from who? How can I possibly expect to believe you if you have no credible source. Sorry, I need more than that, I'm not a News of the World reader so I tend to look for credibility and evidence rather than just believing what someone who just joined the forums "heard".
4LKN4:I can't say I've ever seen any disagreements mentioned in print, but I'll look out for them in future. And again, because we're all different, one reviewer may feel they're not up to scratch, whereas another might feel they'll be right up someone's street and worth every penny. I've never seen this situation in print. having said that, I've never read every copy cover to cover.
I do read each issue cover to cover (WHF and Edge are the only two magazines which interest me enough to do this generally) and I've seen the disagreements in print.
4LKN4:(Sits and waits for Prof Hats remarks.......)
You seem to think I dislike anyone disagreeing with WHF's opinions. What I actually disagree with is people coming on this forum and making baseless comments and accusations. You'll see it in a number of forum posts I've been involved in such as recent ones with people commenting on all Onkyo amps being faulty, in the past people attempting to spread the myths of Plasma televisions, others attempting to put people off trying out different cables for themselves. In all, I speak out against anyone making ridiculous claims they can't prove - in most cases, it's pretty obvious the person is just there to troll. In this case, I don't think you're actually trolling properly, but you are making very serious claims that you haven't proven. So the onus is on you really.
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