What Hi-Fi listening rooms

[Craig M.]

4LKN4:dominic dawes:As standards of design and manufacture evolve, it will inevitably sometimes happen that a product whose previous version was close to the class-leaders of its day, will be way off the pace in a present-day setting. When this happens, it is simply the result of how good its present-day rivals areThe KEF's "main modern day rivals" haven't changed, so this is a moot point. The new KEF's are far from "way off mark". Secondly, on the subject of our testing rooms:

4LKN4 suggests that a normal living room doesn't sound like an acoustically treated room. Fine. What his argument fails to recognise is that a 'normal' living room also sounds completely unlike every other 'normal' living room.While this may be true, they have one thing in common. NORMAL. Yes, there's variances on this normal, but they're still the sort of room the buying public will have. How many living rooms sound like an expensively acoustically treated listening room? Ok, if all these speakers are tested in special rooms, why is there no mention of what type of rooms these speakers will suit? You can tell whether a speaker will be heavier on bass or treble happy in a treated room, so why no mention of this? Rather than just saying 'this speaker is way off the mark, stay away'. What is the most reliable way of comparing two products? By reducing the variables, minimising all the factors - other than the performance of the products concerned - that could possibly influence the results.Personal opinions will affect a review far more than a room will. The most reliable way to review products is for the reviewer not to know what they're listening to, and produce a review based on Speakers A and Speakers B and so on. This ensures a product gets a fair review. Because our readers all listen in rooms that sound different, we serve them best by meticulously testing the kit in a room that doesn't impinge on the sound. Otherwise, we would only be serving those readers whose room happens to sound like oursBut you are serving people with rooms like yours (ie, none). If nobody has a room that sounds like yours, then any of these products are not going to sound the same at all, some will behave totally differently.

this post just made my head hurt. it's full of contradictions. somewhere a village is missing someone...

 

[Anonymous]

4LKN4, you have to beÿSonicaccuracyisall X aren't you?

 

[Anonymous]

Craig, feel free to point them out.....

And no, Octopo, I'm not him.

 

[Ajani]

4LKN4:Ok, if all these speakers are tested in special rooms, why is there no mention of what type of rooms these speakers will suit? You can tell whether a speaker will be heavier on bass or treble happy in a treated room, so why no mention of this? Rather than just saying 'this speaker is way off the mark, stay away'.
This is the only point so far from 4LKN4 that I sort of agree with... The use of treated rooms removes variances in sound resulting from the room (I 100% agree with WHF on using treated rooms)... it also gives the opportunity to mention whether a product is bass heavy and hence not suited to a certain type of room, or bright and hence not suited to another type of room etc... Now in fairness to WHF, I have seen many reviews where they mention exactly how a product is 'off the mark' and have suggested careful system matching to deal with it (I don't think I've read anything on room matching - though I could be wrong)....

I see this as an opportunity for WHF to add another level to their reviews (if they so desire). Though frankly, I don't think it's necessary for them to mollycoddle every mediocre product, and give a detailed analysis of what rooms/careful system matching might make it sound like a decent bit of kit...

 

[Anonymous]

Quote: Personal opinions will affect a review far more than a room will

So the fact they know what there talking about is more important than the room your bleeting on about?

old kefs sound as good as new ones do they?

Really, your going nowhere with this. First its all about the room, now its about personal opinions.

you dont really know anything about a speakers interaction with a room. your arguement holds so little weight i cant even see it. Your just circling like a vulture.

If you put a floorstander of a decent size in a brick walled closed room with wooden floor you get various bass related reinforcements. Standing waves building between the solid walls, and a floor acting like a sound board, firing at the ceiling. So many standing waves that bass boom will be emence, and thats before we even think about sticking them in the corner like horn loading. Take them same speakers, and put them in a concrete floored room with stud(hollow)walls and an open stairwell. Now you have no soundboard setting up resonence between its self and the ceiling. You have no strong standing waves that can be set up between the walls. No high sound pressure from the enclosed room. The bass goes from bloated to missing. Just the tops will be left, stood out alone. Personal opinions are not needed. I know this happens and that everyone would notice it like a wet fish in the face.

Much as a 'what room' mag would be of use, this aint it. Ive left some holes in my post for you, and your not even going to see them now ive pointed you to the fact. Even something as simple as a ceiling comes in many forms. some susspended, some papered in woodchip, some just painted, but generally there a hard surface to hf. However it could be boards nailed to beams of many shapes sizes and densitys and temperature/dampness. It could be two boards. them boards could be various widths, or laminated. You could have concrete. You could have lathe&plaster. That could be solid, or could be full of cracks. It could be lime plaster. This is just a ceiling.

You have to know your room. every review cant point out that shoveing something in the corner will make it more weighty, but peaky. Ive seen advice on toe in or toe out though. There are just to many variables, and its up to us to develop the skills to recognise what does what, and what we can do about it. Stuff like drapes and slabs are not something to find in a speaker review. its enviromental, like your rack. ive certainly seen talk of big speakers needing space, and little ones likeing a wall close behind them. Bookshelf speakers are just that. You cant keep being told about your room in every review though. You tailor the review around your knowledge of the room and how your taste perhaps differs from the average reviewers. I for one am very glad all speakers are not tested in your lounge. That would be good reason to cry foul and bias. A dead room lets the speakers get reviewed, not the room. Thats what we need. Then modify that opinion to your own circumstances. I realise this is hard for a first time system builder, but we all have to start somewhere and dead rooms are impartial.

I think a few peeps need to agree to dissagree or this is just going to drag on. I find it odvious who we should be listening to, and will continue to do so. WHF are a benchmark i can work with, and have been consistantly for many years. There is always someone with a different opinion though, thats why all hifi dont sound the same. Argueing who is right and wrong is ofton futile as both can be right in there minds, even when they dont agree. There are enough posts here to see who is who though, and recognise WHF are doing a grand job in 95% of our opinions. Is more even possible?

lock it! lol

 

[professorhat]

professorhat:Are you just selectively ignoring them so can believe in your fantasy just to make you happy? If so, fair enough, whatever helps you sleep.
And again, no response to this or the earlier posts which poked holes through all your "theories" on WHF testing and their testing rooms. So I'm guessing the fantasy is working out great.
Good for you, son.

 

[Anonymous]

I only mentioned personal opinions, it wasn;t a major issue.

In this instance, no, the old ones don't don't sound as good as the new ones.

you dont really know anything about a speakers interaction with a room. your arguement holds so little weight i cant even see it. Your just circling like a vulture.On the contrary, I'm fully aware of room acoustics and interaction, I have been for many decades now. But please, continue.

Ive left some holes in my post for you, and your not even going to see them now ive pointed you to the fact. Maybe I'm going to choose to not respond to your 'holes'.

There are enough posts here to see who is who though I disagree. I'm well respected on another forum, and they have had time to get to know me and how I work. You have not. You're basing everything on one thread.

 

[SHAXOS]

Blah blah i like the new Kefs blah i dont blah blah WHF pants acoustic dead demo room blah room acoustics blah biased blah etc etc etc...
Stop the arguing its pointless. Some of you dont share the same opinion. Get over it.

 

[Anonymous]

Was that your contribution? Those that don't want to participate in this thread won't, those that will, will.

I made a couple of points earlier in the thread, but people have blown things way out of proportion. Forums are for discussion.

 

[SHAXOS]

"Was that your contribution?"
Yep

 

[Anonymous]

4LKN4:There are enough posts here to see who is who though I disagree. I'm well respected on another forum, and they have had time to get to know me and how I work. You have not. You're basing everything on one thread.

Errrr your first and main contribution was to be incredibly rude about What Hi-Fi and the reviewers. Why would anyone respect you or even take the time to get to know you when your first words were enough to put everyone off you for life?

Haven't you heard of making a good first impression. You can't just barge in here, totally unknown, break up the place and then say "hey, people respect me elsewhere". Why don't you try saying sorry for being an ass and start over?

 

[Anonymous]

(Well said Will),

N.B: Other forum

N.B: A chance to have a dig at WHF.

 

[John Duncan]

I am totally disrespected on another forum. Ignore me.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Me too. On several, I think.

 

[Thaiman]

I am not!

 

[John Duncan]

Ah, you say that, Thaiman..........

 

[Thaiman]

Each forum have their own style and house rules. You can't really compare one to another.

JD, I wouldn't expect you to come to my house and act like yours (even when i say "make yourself at home) drink all my beers, chat my mrs. up! ......Do You know I mean mate (in Frank Bruno's kinna voice)

There are some good argument about in HiFi forums but mostly, to me, it's more like The Argument Sketch from Monty Python's show.

 

[John Duncan]

No it's not.

 

[Anonymous]

Is this the right room for an argument?

 

[John Duncan]

No, that's the Cable forum.

 

[Anonymous]

ah, this thread is finally coming good towards the end. if only for the comedy value and the conclusion that the OP was a troll. special mention to Shaxos and JD for making me lol!

 

[Anonymous]

Nothing like a good punch up hey. At least everyone has kept their sense of humour. If only that Monty Python sketch could be posted into a thread. That'd be a giggle.

Regarding earlier comments, I can't really imagine Thaiman being disrespected anywhere. Can anyone?

 

[Clare Newsome]

Will Harris:If only that Monty Python sketch could be posted into a thread. That'd be a giggle.

And here it is....

 

[Anonymous]

So... is this not a good time to say 'Hi' everyone? (being a KEF dealer, amongst others!)

 

[Anonymous]

Hello, I shan't assume a thing...