What Hi-Fi listening rooms

[Anonymous]

I haven't posted much, but I have been reading a bit on these forums and will join in more if I get the time. I did feel the need to say something about this subject, and was going to post about it, but it seems I've been beaten to it. I am gobsmacked by the reviews given by the WHF team to the new iQ series. The iQ70's are a fair step above the old iQ7SE's, which I could tell straight away even though they hadn't been run in. The iQ7SE's got 4 stars, and the new iQ70's should easily get 5 based upon this. I'm always sceptical of reviewers views on things, but this just serves to fuel my scepticism. It will be interesting to hear what HCC have to say......

On the subject of reviews being subjective, it is mentioned that any results/reviews are agreeed upon by the whole WHF team - does this mean that the whole WHF team think the same and hear the same things? How many of you are there reviewing? 5? 10? Even if it's 5, at least one of you would disagree with the rest of the team. In this case, are they sent to the sin bin to reflect on their 'individualism'? Or do you just give them their P45?

Also, why spend so much on your dem rooms? This is giving the WHF team a completely different view of the products the general public are taking home. The average person, even above average ones, don't have acoustically treated listening rooms. In fact, most people haven't got a dedicated listening room - theirs is called the living room. I personally disagree with treating rooms for reviewing purposes for the above reason, and think they should be reviewed in a proper, normal listening environment.

One other thing while my fingers are feeling active, I've never really agreed with any WHF loudspeaker supertests. You get together a group of 5-10 speakers (not necessarily a relevant group either), and compare them with the same amplifier. This is wrong. The amplifier/speaker match is THE most important thing in the whole system. One speaker can sound amazing with one amplifier, but then stick it with another amplifier and it can sound like it should be a third of the price. Just picking any amplifier (and a Roksan Kandy isn't necessarily the best choice all the time) isn't doing some manufacturers justice. It lets you hear the speaker with the same signal, but it's not going to show every speaker in the test in their best light. But I'm sure you're all aware of this being experienced reviewers.

I would do away with group tests and supertests (due to the above reason), unless more blind testing takes place, and actually testing them with all the reviewers present so they can discuss their findings and come to agreeable decisions. Or, probably best of all (and I know one mag has done something similar), is to let reviewers write their own private reviews, then whichever reviewer liked the speakers the most, present that as the main review, and then give a small section to a couple of other reviewers to publish their thoughts, whether they're the same or different. This way, people get to hear more than one view on the product, and also an alternative view.

Slagging off a product is pointless and does no one any favours. If you really don't like a product, why print the review? Just omit it from the magazine. Hifi+ only ever printed reviews of decent products that they found they liked, which means that if it's in the mag it's good, no need to find out how many stars it is or how it compares to something else (which is why people should be visiting their local dealers anyway).

I know there are instances on here (and other forums) where many take an anti-retailer standpoint (there's even a sly dig in this thread), which is fair enough if they decide to believe other unknown, faceless nobodies and order of the internet. But there are dealers out there where you can test this sort of stuff for yourself, and they'll know which amp suits which speaker to get the best from them too. I'm sure if you took a random selection of the KEF dealers out there and asked them for their opinion on the new KEF's, I can't imagine one of them would give them 3 out of 5 stars. And before anybody says "well a KEF dealer would say that", just remember a dealer will have another four or five other alternatives he could sell at that price point instead, making that sort of comment null and void.

There are many ratings in WHF that just don't make sense - this is one of them.

 

[professorhat]

Blimey - what seems strange to me is why you buy the magazine. You don't seem to like it much!

 

[Anonymous]

In all honesty, I would ban the thread starter. After only 5 posts i could see the pattern. Down with WHF in every one of them, and just how good Kef are. I reckon if the ports were just that bit wider....

I wouldn't like anyone to see his trolling as truth. It does nothing for the forum

quote

"well a KEF dealer would say that", just remember a dealer will have another four or five other alternatives he could sell at that price point instead, making that sort of comment null and void"

You dont do retail do you. The dealer dont want to sell an item of everyones, or nobody would give him a good discount. Don't expect total honesty from a sales person.

I think using one amp is fine, as is printing bad reviews so we can avoid them. There is only so much time in the day, and a good ear dont need the right kit to see what things are capable of. Its what come with years of experience. Im sure they swap sources from time to time just to see if there not quite sure.

 

[Anonymous]

4LKN4 - i would guess the reason the WHF team have their dem room treated is because they want to hear the demo kit and NOT their room.
some of your theories about reviewing processes are just baffling though... if kit that didnt get a great review was ommitted then people would complain that WHF were biased and just gave everything that appeared in their mag 5 stars! just because something doesnt receive top marks doesnt mean it isnt worth a demo - just that it didnt tick all the buttons for the reviewers - you must judge the product yourself!
as for the speaker group test and changing amps... well they are testing speaker not speaker and amp combos! the amps characteristics will be familiar to the reviewers and a constant in the tests therefore making the reviews much easier. plus im sure they would choose an amp that is a good match (read versatile) for the test group.

 

[Clare Newsome]

4LKN4, I'm afraid that again you're making massive assumptions about the way we work.

Yes, we work with reference kit, but no product is just tested with that alone. So we don't, as you say, just put speakers with a single amplifier. They'll be tested with the reference amp, a price comparable amp and often a combination we know they'll be commonly paired with (eg Rotel and B&W; Marantz and Mordaunt Short) so that we can make system-matching recommendations both in the review and on these Forums.

Secondly, our testing rooms are a mixture of acoustically treated and non-treated rooms, so we can see and hear kit in a range of environments and room sizes. But treated rooms gives a level playing field to all kit, as does testing with a team, not individual reviewers.

And onto reviewers. We have an incredibly experienced team, and groups of reviewers will work on different tests each issue, with lead reviewers overseeing every test. The review will be written by the tester who's spent the most time start-to-finish on a product, so they can convey everything from the set-up to the performance stages.

Are there disagreements? Occasionally, and we'll refer to them in copy, too (you must have missed that bit). But at the end of the day, the decision has to come down to a question of whether the product is worth the money the manufacturer is charging for it - whether, in short, it's something we'd wholeheartedly recommend any of our readers to spend their hard-earned cash on.

Finally, you mention us only printing positive reviews. Well, our rivals may be increasingly headed that way, but as a consumer magazine we strongly believe our readers need to read about as many products as possible, whether we feel they're good value or not.

 

[Anonymous]

Oooooooh what an excellently daft and ill-informed posting from our newbie 4LKN4. Much licking of lips before going in for a chunky bite of his hide.

Right, well, here are my thoughts on some of your comments. Let me know if there's any chance you might agree.

The reason What Hi-Fi spent a lot of money on their facilities is that turning commercial space into a viable home for a business, including listening rooms, storage and offices, is expensive. Trust me on this because I work for the worlds second largest firm of chartered surveyors so it's a subject that I'm a little bit familiar with.

Secondly, you and I have no idea what they've done in that space or how much space they have, or for that matter, the state it was in when they took it in the first place.

Third, they would doubtless have had the rooms treated accoustically to ensure that they have similar sonic / accoustic characturistics as each other. You can't have a series of demo rooms all sounding totally different. They'd want a level of consistency. That said, none of us have seen them. I'm sure they have similarities to home, it just depends on whose home. But either way, a consistent room accoustic allows comparative testing. That's the key.

You mention the kit they test with. You don't know the kit they've used. Trust me I have read a stack of What Hi-Fi mag reviews where they've mentioned how kit perform with their reference electronics. We're talking Krell and Bryston kit. They often suggest a partner for a winning item, in the price range most appropriate, but that doesn't mean they only used the suggested item to test every component. To assume so would be a little niave. (I hope).

Never print a bad review you say. Are you slightly loopy. What Hi-Fi don't work for the trade, they work for their readers. At the very least they try to be neutral. That can't be easy, but it's only by doing this that people trust what they say. A What Hi-Fi 5* review means what it says and that's worth its weight in gold to the companies submitting kit. I've always found their negative reviews to be fascinating, mostly highly constructive. One only wonders why some manufacturers appear to have stopped listening. (Whatever happened to Mission!).

The only places to find nothing but rave reviews are newspapers and lads mags. I expect What Hi-Fi to be judgemental and independant. And that they are. They do a great job, fortunately a view shared by many.

 

[Anonymous]

You dont do retail do you. The dealer dont want to sell an item of everyones, or nobody would give him a good discount. Don't expect total honesty from a sales person.This is exactly what I was referring to. And yes, I do 'do retail'. You obviously don't know how the price structure works.

I think using one amp is fine, as is printing bad reviews so we can avoid them. There is only so much time in the day, and a good ear dont need the right kit to see what things are capable of. Its what come with years of experience. Im sure they swap sources from time to time just to see if there not quite sure.'A good ear' isn't capable of knowing what a speaker is capable of if it's in the wrong system. Unless you hear a speaker with an amp that can let the speaker do what it's supposed to do, you'll never the speaker at it's best.

just because something doesnt receive top marks doesnt mean it isnt worth a demo - just that it didnt tick all the buttons for the reviewers - you must judge the product yourself!Ask this of the average WHF reader. Many people won't touch a 4 star product. Why? Because it didn't get 5......and like I said, if the product has passed through 4 or 5 reviewers, they won't all come to the same conclusions.

as for the speaker group test and changing amps... well they are testing speaker not speaker and amp combos! the amps characteristics will be familiar to the reviewers and a constant in the tests therefore making the reviews much easier. plus im sure they would choose an amp that is a good match (read versatile) for the test group.One amp isn't going to match 7 randomly picked speakers. This is my point.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Interesting you chose to reply to Will's post, 4LKN4, rather than mine, which addresses many of the points you make.

Secondly, if you're in hi-fi retail, I feel you should be open about your identity, rather than pose as a consumer.

We're happy to host manufacturers and retailers as long as they declare their interest!

 

[Thaiman]

Guys...life is too short!

Why people like to stress about silly thing?

 

[Anonymous]

Will Harris:Oooooooh what an excellently daft and ill-informed posting from our newbie 4LKN4. Interesting view, but far from a newbie......

I'm not here to turn a thread upside down, I'm merely here to help other people, and if my pointing out a few little things goes against others, then that is no different to WHF going against other mags in their beliefs/decisions.

You can't have a series of demo rooms all sounding totally different.Our rooms sound different. If everyone buys a product based on the reviewers finding in an expensively treated room, a few are going to find things a little odd when they get home.

You mention the kit they test with. You don't know the kit they've used. Trust me I have read a stack of What Hi-Fi mag reviews where they've mentioned how kit perform with their reference electronics. We're talking Krell and Bryston kit. They often suggest a partner for a winning item, in the price range most appropriate, but that doesn't mean they only used the suggested item to test every component. To assume so would be a little niave. (I hope).Somtimes the mag will mention the kit used. Sometimes it's never mentioned. And as for using a pair of £500 speakers with £10k of electronics, yes it's a nice little excercise, but pointless regarding the average person. It would be nice to know what electronics/speakers are used to test a product with, as this will explain some of the decisions made.

What Hi-Fi don't work for the trade, they work for their readers. At the very least they try to be neutral.Like a retailer works for his customers? At the end of the day, as mentioned, it's a business.

I've always found their negative reviews to be fascinating, mostly highly constructive. One only wonders why some manufacturers appear to have stopped listening. (Whatever happened to Mission!).Yes, reading about a 1 star product is quite funny sometimes, but reading a bad review of a decent product is just infuriating. I fully appreciate that there are some people who just don't like the KEF sound, but these reviews are just going to put off prospective new speaker owners from even trying the KEF's in the first place.

I also appreciate (and have noticed in the past) that anyone who says anything remotely negative about WHF, the team or their views, have been pounced upon by those that follow WHF religiously. I understand it when people stick their neck out in defence. But if you do, at least have a decent argument to put forward. I understand that I know I'm on my own here as I haven't posted enough for anyone to know, and many of you will just see me like some of the other idiots who post on here, but I'd just like to say this has been a hobby of mine for over 30 years, and I do have some decent knowledge of products and industry within that period of time, including WHF itself.

Like I said, I'm not here to start arguments, and I'm hoping the WHF team are intelligent enough to see that.

 

[matengawhat]

this is all down to personnel opinion - as you have mentioned in your experience the kefs are great - all what hi fi does is suggest certain products at certain price points are worth an audition nothing more - they don't so go buy it or else! If i was in a store i would ask to hear all speakers at a price point give or take 10% and let my ears decide

then prob buy something that costs twice as much as i went in with - is that just me???

 

[Anonymous]

Clare Newsome:Secondly, if you're in hi-fi retail, I feel you should be open about your identity, rather than pose as a consumer.

We're happy to host manufacturers and retailers as long as they declare their interest!
I'm here as an individual with relevant experience. IF I was a retailer, I'd be here to sell things, which I am not. I am posting in my own time, and will help out people with their individual questions when I feel i have enough knowledge to do so. It's probably not been a great start for me, but in time it will be known that I'm only here to help and share.

 

[pioneer7]

Clare and Team

This is just an observation so will keep it short if poss,you will always get some readers of forums who have to force issues, and no matter how things are explained you will never win.You certainly do not have to justify cost or defend how you do things at What HiFi, i think its fair to say you have a fair few loyal readers and rely like myself on reviews the mag does.
Dont allow this forum to be like others, it does not make good reading and spoils the fun that is supposed be for as well as being imformative, as already stated it might be an idea to remove this thread, sorry if you think i am out of order but dont waste your time on threads that are of no relevance, i am all for asking why,or give constructive observations, but not like this thread, so there you go.Great mag Great Forum.

Andy

 

[matengawhat]

pioneer7:Clare and Team

This is just an observation so will keep it short if poss,you will always get some readers of forums who have to force issues, and no matter how things are explained you will never win.You certainly do not have to justify cost or defend how you do things at What HiFi, i think its fair to say you have a fair few loyal readers and rely like myself on reviews the mag does.
Dont allow this forum to be like others, it does not make good reading and spoils the fun that is supposed be for as well as being imformative, as already stated it might be an idea to remove this thread, sorry if you think i am out of order but dont waste your time on threads that are of no relevance, i am all for asking why,or give constructive observations, but not like this thread, so there you go.Great mag Great Forum.

Andy

i've actually learnt a lot today regarding what hi fi and how they do things - think its been informative reading and i mean that in a good way

 

[matengawhat]

i also appreciate the support i have received and help given by both team and posters

 

[Clare Newsome]

Happy to help in any way - and that includes being open about who we are and what we do. Feel free to ask away if there's anything else you want to know.

 

[professorhat]

4LKN4:I also appreciate (and have noticed in the past) that anyone who says anything remotely negative about WHF, the team or their views, have been pounced upon by those that follow WHF religiously.
I think the issue is, you've made some assumptions about the reviewing process and brought them out as negative issues with WHF. Clare's replied to these assumptions to show how they are actually wrong, but you've not replied on your views of her responses. Do you accept them or not?
At the moment, no one's really come up with any views except that a couple of people don't agree with WHF's review on the KEFs. This is fine in itself and I'm sure everyone is happy that these people like them. The problem comes when someone has to justify their views (probably more to themself than anyone else) with claims of how WHF are biased or their reviewing process must be flawed without any evidence supporting their arguments. This isn't productive at all and gets people annoyed as it's just seen as trolling - something which isn't looked upon favourably here.

 

[Anonymous]

Well changing the subject slightly,i recently bought a pair of Quad 21l in Piano Black.

I love these speakers so much that am on the look out to get a ÿcd player and ampliflier to enjoy music and get the most out of them.

ÿ

You should audition them!ÿ

 

[Thaiman]

Thaiman:

Guys...life is too short!

Why people like to stress about silly thing?

Really guys....stress can make you look older than you really are. Some may suffer hair loss

I can't see any issue in this thread at all. Kef have many praise from WHF for years and years so there is nothing against KEF as a brand.

I haven't heard the pair but I am sure they will sell alright! Kef is a big enough company to carry off one or two bad reviews. If every tested products have been rate 5 stars people do moan, not enough stars people moan again! Why can't people just listen to music instead of worry about star rating?

 

[Ajani]

I think this thread highlights how difficult it is to review products... There are so many review mags with so many different approaches... some have individual reviewers conducting reviews in their own homes, some have panels in accoustically treated rooms, some do sighted testing, others DBT, some take measurements etc... At the end of the day, it's up to the reader to determine which style appeals most to him/her (or sample as many styles as possible - as some of us do)... WHF has it's own style and they state it clearly and are willing to defend it... what more can a reader really ask for?

I read a wide variety of reviews from printed magazines to online review sites... from the UK to the US and Canada... I see no reason why WHF should change to any competitor's style of review... losing their individuality seems foolish to me.... Besides, those other mags also get criticised heavily.... Many American mags almost always have glowing product reviews (and no ratings) - which seems to be what the KEF dealer wants to see at WHF - those mags get attacked regularly as being nothing but advertisements for manufacturers (since they rarely ever have anything bad to say about a product).... Mags that use measurements get attacked because a) measurements don't tell you whether you'll like how a product sounds and b) These mags regularly praise products that measure average to mediocre on their own test equipment (so what's the point of the measurements then?)...

Like any good review mag, WHF tells you to essentially use the mag as a guide of products to audition, but in the end trust your own ears...

 

[Andy Clough]

Ajani:
Like any good review mag, WHF tells you to essentially use the mag as a guide of products to audition, but in the end trust your own ears...

Exactly.

 

[JoelSim]

Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:He might be interested in those tattoos, certainly.

Oh dear, exactly the obvious response we were expecting!ÿ

There's definitely a resemblance.

ÿ

 

[Simon Lucas]

Thaiman: Some may suffer hair loss

How very dare you!

 

[Anonymous]

I think that what someone wants to do with their own living space is up to them, but sometimes people blame their speakers when really the problems is the room, personally speaking I think it's vital that a pair of speakers or whatever it tested in a acoustically treated room, at least that way you are hearing the spŠakers true response, now let's say for example that the room was not treated and the reviewer went on to say the that the speaker had a bass hump at 125Hz and boomed badly at 62Hz, when in fact all he was hearing was a room mode, the customer would think X speaker was poor because it was reported to be boomy when in fact it wasn't, so I think reviews of kit should be carried out in a professional manner, i.e a treated room, if people want a different sound response in their own environment then that's there choice.

Regarding the review itself, who cares? haha.

 

[Thaiman]

Simon Lucas:

Thaiman: Some may suffer hair loss

How very dare you!

you still look good without a lot of hair

(I thought you might reply to my post, Andy also going a bit thin too!)