What happened to the Jcat thread?

[pauln]

Anyone care to say why the thread has been removed? Censorship again?

 

[Paul.]

I'm guessing people were breaking house rules and the mods couldn't be arsed to babysit?

 

[cheeseboy]

judging by the hissy fit ellisdj threw, who knows. maybe he asked for it to be removed or the mods did. I've not had any notification or warnings, so place yer bets.

 

[Anderson]

OP probably asked for it to be deleted after he realised no one else was going to buy the pixie dust cables.

 

[ellisdj]

Nothing to do with me - been working - for JPlay obviously according to you.

Shame good review there - I hope nothing negative has been insinuated towards any of the companies mentioned in the thread for anyone reading

- all very highly regarded and do not deserve negativity because of tit for tat

 

[Anderson]

A review is hardly deserved if there's no verifiable way that the cable or system can or should change the sound.

 

[fr0g]

It's a shame as the more people reveal these scam snake oil sellers, the better.

 

[pauln]

I agree, but it would be nice to know what happened - maybe one of the players involved complained to What HiFi? Usually a thread just gets locked if it gets out of hand doesn't it?

 

[Anderson]

Who's to say a certain company didn't just agee to purchase some advertising on the site?

 

[bigboss]

The last post I saw on that thread was from John Duncan, the moderator who initially locked the thread as it descended into name calling and personal abuse. They must've later decided to delete the thread completely.

 

[bigboss]

Who's to say a certain company didn't just agee to purchase some advertising on the site?

Speculations can't get any crazier, can they?

 

[ellisdj]

Who's to say a certain company didn't just agee to purchase some advertising on the site?

Extreme Pessimism - and speaking down of the very place you are using for free, I agree with BB.

Also the insistence on scrutinising companies that dont force anyone to buy anything - they offer a service or product one choses to buy or not - a lot let you try completely for free.

Quite often in threads like this people still end buying what everyone has told them not to - maybe its clever reverse commercial psychology.

I think its more like wasted good forum space - but dont worry posts like this is fuel for more clever remarks, so wait for them with baited breath

 

[ellisdj]

its been said by some on here J Play makes no difference - I have thought of a honest scenario last year during the beta testing for the latest JPLay as I remember it I thought I would share

People from different parts of the world who dont know each other, dont speak to each other directly all have different systems, different rooms, different music tastes etc are participating and feeding back - standard stuff

I participated and was testing the releases as they was coming out. As I recall there was no consensus at all - some preferred this beta some preferred that - I preferred the last official released jplay rather than any of the betas

I remember testing beta 14 and it was straight away one of those moments - if you change and tinker with kit and bits you get moments when things click and the audio sounds the best its ever done to you, I am sure everyone has exprienced that probably more than once. I assume this is what hifi buff call system synergy, that was me for beta 14.

Audio nirvana, I cant stop listening good sounding, wow moment

Then looking at the consensus from the posted feedback it was pretty much the same for everyone - there are always 2 releases official and alternative as some prefer one to the other and therefore there is both options. Some preferred as always one or the other but still beta 14.

I remember beta 14 expiring and it was like audio heartbreak for me having to go back to the old official jplay sound. Most participators were asking for beta 14 to become the new official jplay when they released it they loved it that much, as much as me. I distinctly remember one person commenting on their distress that they had setup a demo for multiple people by the sounds of it and then coudlnt get jplay to work (because the beta had expired) - I assume they were some sort of dealer doing a demo - but again they chose beta 14 over the official jplay release which has no expiry - thats no coincidence I dont feel in that situation - they wuld be demoing what they felt was their best sound

JPlay actually released beta 15 after and all the same participants posted that it was far worse than beta 14 and they wanted beta 14 back / to be used for the official release.

Basically all jplay had done as they was open about it was change some code to try and fix a bug - that was it everything else was exactly same.

But all different people, all over the world, in different rooms, with different systems, with different computers setup differently - all manner of combinations probably none of them the same that dont know each other shared the same feedback and experience about beta 15 being worse than 14.

Now while changing only one line of code is an extreme example of what can cause an audible difference from a programme like jplay and I appreciate difficult to possibly believe - However looking at the scenario of multiple beta platforms with no consensus as best sound to one beta platform with majority general consensus for best sounding beta for all those different people, scenarios, systems etc may help show there is something in the software and the accusation its does nothing might not actuallty be factually accurate as some have posted they believe.

I dont expect this to change their opinion - nothing will and I expect a manner of remarks based on expectation bias etc, which is fair enough. However the chances of this diversity of people sharing one common opinion on something like is extemely rare and worth pointing out

 

[Andy Clough]

The last post I saw on that thread was from John Duncan, the moderator who initially locked the thread as it descended into name calling and personal abuse. They must've later decided to delete the thread completely.

JD did indeed lock the thread as it was getting out of hand. It had nothing to do with advertising, and everything to do with us getting fed up with the childish behaviour of some posters.

 

[dim_span]

its been said by some on here J Play makes no difference - I have thought of a honest scenario last year during the beta testing for the latest JPLay as I remember it I thought I would share

People from different parts of the world who dont know each other, dont speak to each other directly all have different systems, different rooms, different music tastes etc are participating and feeding back - standard stuff

I participated and was testing the releases as they was coming out. As I recall there was no consensus at all - some preferred this beta some preferred that - I preferred the last official released jplay rather than any of the betas

I remember testing beta 14 and it was straight away one of those moments - if you change and tinker with kit and bits you get moments when things click and the audio sounds the best its ever done to you, I am sure everyone has exprienced that probably more than once. I assume this is what hifi buff call system synergy, that was me for beta 14.

Audio nirvana, I cant stop listening good sounding, wow moment

Then looking at the consensus from the posted feedback it was pretty much the same for everyone - there are always 2 releases official and alternative as some prefer one to the other and therefore there is both options. Some preferred as always one or the other but still beta 14.

I remember beta 14 expiring and it was like audio heartbreak for me having to go back to the old official jplay sound. Most participators were asking for beta 14 to become the new official jplay when they released it they loved it that much, as much as me. I distinctly remember one person commenting on their distress that they had setup a demo for multiple people by the sounds of it and then coudlnt get jplay to work (because the beta had expired) - I assume they were some sort of dealer doing a demo - but again they chose beta 14 over the official jplay release which has no expiry - thats no coincidence I dont feel in that situation - they wuld be demoing what they felt was their best sound

JPlay actually released beta 15 after and all the same participants posted that it was far worse than beta 14 and they wanted beta 14 back / to be used for the official release.

Basically all jplay had done as they was open about it was change some code to try and fix a bug - that was it everything else was exactly same.

But all different people, all over the world, in different rooms, with different systems, with different computers setup differently - all manner of combinations probably none of them the same that dont know each other shared the same feedback and experience about beta 15 being worse than 14.

Now while changing only one line of code is an extreme example of what can cause an audible difference from a programme like jplay and I appreciate difficult to possibly believe - However looking at the scenario of multiple beta platforms with no consensus as best sound to one beta platform with majority general consensus for best sounding beta for all those different people, scenarios, systems etc may help show there is something in the software and the accusation its does nothing might not actuallty be factually accurate as some have posted they believe.

I dont expect this to change their opinion - nothing will and I expect a manner of remarks based on expectation bias etc, which is fair enough. However the chances of this diversity of people sharing one common opinion on something like is extemely rare and worth pointing out

^^ Good Post

 

[ellisdj]

As the locked Jplay thread is back up - probably on temporarily I feel its important to say this

I posted the thread in the correct section of the forum - the review was of products not the software -

However First post - software it a scam, third and fourth post riducule and scam - and then the thread is ruined

Now someone starts a thread in hope of some positive and honest chat on the topic which was Jcat usb card, cable and battery power supply - that is the hope. But unfortunately unless its about speakers or amplifiers for some reason the thread gets killed off before anyone has a chance to even post anything positive. They read all the negativity and think why bother I will just move on.

This has been winding me up for months now - and it boils up into the thread that has to be removed.

I think its ridiculous - I dont post in every thread of kit I think is no good saying that - there is no need to. Everyone is capable of making their own minds up and certainly capable of doing a google search if they want to find out pros and cons. It wouldnt be so bad if things were clear cut, but they never are depsite how strong people think their sciene theory is.

Its at the point where you have to think is it honestly worth starting a thread because of the ridicule you or what you post about will receive before you even do it. Is that what a forum is supposed to be like - its the only one of several I use thats like it.

This is not spitting dummies out - this is honestly how bad its got, I cant be the only person that thinks this just I am upfront enough to say it because I like using this forum it should be a great place to share experience - but its only so if its on a topic certain people dont want to kill off.

 

[SteveR750]

For me the name alone as an obvious plagiarism of J River's product thats been around for some years now puts me off straight away. I wouldn't even bother investigating them - if they were a serious operation they'd realise their naming was inappropriate.

I would add that I have run J river MC on three different laptops, and used optical and USB 2 ASIO connections. Apart from some ground hum, there was no difference I could detect. I can't hear any difference between streaming from the hard drive or from RAM, and I'm using my M1 HPA and DT880s which are pretty revealing! I can't hear any difference between a £20 audiophile budget USB cable and the £2.99 amazon essentials, but it's easy to distinguish between USB 1 and USB 2 drivers, USB and optical. On that basis, I'd buy the cheapest laptop I could find that had the quietest PSU and 24/192 output capability. But, that's just my ears, not a definitive scientific data set, and never will be because I'm not selling anything!

 

[ellisdj]

Obviously to discount something on name alone seems a little crazy - but I have done it myself- took a dislike to a product for no actual reason. In fact I did it about the same product we are discussing. At first I wouldnt have it - there is no way a PC can be better than my very expensive High Fi Streamer by expensive £4000's worth

What I didnt know at the time was just how similar the products I was listening to

Again as far as I know JPlay started off as a standalone player and it still is - people that want the best sound use JPlaymini in hibernate mode shutting the computer down 99% - however people integrate it with other software like JRiver for the library managment - not anything else I can think of.

You do your own testing - which is all that matters what you hear and your opnion on it is fine

But just to point a couple of things out that might help people getting Much better sound from computer based sources.

Sorry if this gets long - I will deliberately leave a lot out because it will get long and you can find out this information properly elsewhere if you really want - it will be explained much better by them as well

The laptop is not a good source for audio playback - in facts its the opposite its a bad source

It has some good things - no sata cable interface removing that source of issue, convienience (can never spell that word) sure there are other things that are good

BUT there are big problems with it

1. Everything is powered off the motherboard - this is the worst possible way to power anything for pc audio. Even if you power the laptop off a Linear Power supply its still the motherboard that powers everything - this is a very high noise environment which is audbile - easy to hear once removed.

In an optimsied pc - the only thing powered off the motherboard is the motherbaord and ram - this because of necessity not choice. Everything else even the cpu is externally powered anmd I have filters in the spare ram slots to reduce motherboard noise

2. Its a high noise envrionment - there is no way to screen or absorb any of the high internal rfi generated by the pc without opening it all up. Its all trapped in there - sounds like voodoo but its not - products are manufactured by major global companies to stop this problem in all manner of products being manufactured so its a factor and it its easily audible once you do something about it

3. No expansion - everything has to come off the motherbaord - such as the USB Link to the dac to spdif convertor - and same for reasons 1 this is a high noise bad sound quality way of doing it.

In terms of the USB cable you tested - you feel there is no benefit to be had - but I look at a £20 cable its probably the same as the amazon cable in a prettier box. For £20 there is no effort gone into that at all - cant be for that cost - so thats not to write them all off - you have only tested one. More expensive ones have a bit more effort put in such as specialist plugs and patents granted etc so these need to be considered in the testing platform - generally the reviews published on these products have only have praise them - none that say its made no difference.

The Big Issues with PC Audio of any kind that i can think of are

1. Harshness - the on going battle to reduce harshness this I am sure is the same for all audio playback designs - but its particualry prevalent using this source I have found and its caused by issues 1 and similar issues related

2. Thin Sound - its amazing just how thin a standard pc transport sounds - compared to just how full and harmonically rich it can sound, with huge scale and realism off standard CD's. This is no BS or exaggeration.

3. Organisation / clarity - its possible to get clinical like accuracy from the source - better power supplies is the start of fixing this but again problems mentioned above cause lack of clarity. All systems sound clear when there is not much happening. But in some music there is loads going on and it can become mush - the soundstage collapes. This is totally avoidable so you can listen to any music at loud volumes the composure remains.

For me JPlay improves timing - timing is accuracy and detail - this was the first thing I noticed - bass timing I just could not replicate the bass from my old streamer that I was getting from the pc with jplay. This got me investigating and asking questions and I now think my source is very good and a great platform for I wont say high end but but still a very good platform for music.

I had a fello forum member round on Tuesday - he came to listen to my sub actually to see how he liked it compared to a home demo of a JLe112 he had last weekend

While he was here he listened to a bit of music (not a lot) - I asked him what he thought - his answer was " you will have to go a long way to hear anything better" "Jplay sounds really good" Its not just JPlay obviously its the whole setup and room but the computer is a big big part of it - as with the setup I have any weakness and flaws stand out a mile - well they do to me

I will see If I can ask him to post his opnion on here - We are not friends, we had met once before shockingly we realised when he arrived I recognised him - he will have no reason other than to speak the truth about what he heard here, albeit from a very limited demo time

Quick Edit - we were not friends before he came here is what I meant - to say we are not friends now sounds very harsh and is not what I meant David if you read this

 

[cheeseboy]

..even the cpu is externally powered...

source and links please. I've never seen this before and before I start bleating on, I'll give you chance to prove it.

edit: ok, I think i've found it. http://ppastudio.blogspot.nl/ is it this you are referring to? The one where the power supply plugs in to the motherboard to power the cpu? In that case it's still going through the motherboard. (and yes, I saw the seperate power for the "motherboard" - it doesn't change the fact that it's still going through the motherboard I'm afraid.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Jcat website - usb board + power supply + usb cable all for around 1200 euros. Should be good.

 

[ellisdj]

..even the cpu is externally powered...

source and links please. I've never seen this before and before I start bleating on, I'll give you chance to prove it.

edit: ok, I think i've found it. http://ppastudio.blogspot.nl/ is it this you are referring to? The one where the power supply plugs in to the motherboard to power the cpu? In that case it's still going through the motherboard. (and yes, I saw the seperate power for the "motherboard" - it doesn't change the fact that it's still going through the motherboard I'm afraid.

The motherboard is powered via a Linear Power Supply either directly from the best solutions or via a Pico PSU which takes 12v input and converts that 5v and 3.3v - this adds noise but is a much easier and cheaper solution.

The CPU is directly powered 12v via a Linear Power Supply - obviously you have to plug into the motherboard but its not powered from the pico psu it gets its own power

The os and music storage drives such as in my audio pc are powered 5V via external batteries. There are even better versions of these you can buy I have not tried one yet

The jcat usb card take power from the pcie bus - buts its filtered to reduce noise and this is where the dual extertise of JpLay this is what we want and adnanco this is how you do it and manufacture it has worked out so well.

However the jcat card is still better with an external power supply such as an external battery or linear because even very well filtered the motherboarnd environment is still worse due to the high nosie environment

If you look at the JPlay forum loads of people have done this and will testify to the improvements. This is not all they have done - removed all fans, isolate as much as possible - use either the OS optimiser or scripts from CAD. There is loads to do that all adds up - but what is funny most will testify that everything makes a difference that they try. I have found the same to be true.

A lot of people leave their audio pc's on all the time as they sound terrible for an hour or so from cold - work that one out

 

[ellisdj]

Jcat website - usb board + power supply + usb cable all for around 1200 euros. Should be good.

Dont forget the cost of a computer, linear power supply or supplies or an full atx linear solution. batteries cables etc

Its not cheap to go all guns blazing - but you can do it bit by bit lots of small not so expensive upgrades. The RFI sheets I mentioned are £50 for an A4 sheet plus postage - its very expensive but good stuff and its non conductive so you cant blow anything up by mistake

However if you wanted to upgrade one streamer to another its the full cost everytime so its so much more then you can but cant work on these the same

But there is lots of boxes, cables mess and messing around - this is not for everyone

 

[ellisdj]

to put into perspective my Linear Power supply was custom and it cost best part of £800.

It does have the power to run a power hungy i7 computer at near full stink - most wont. It has a simialr amount of capacitance storage (Kendeil Capacitors as well so very good quality) as my old power amp I think 22000 farads if that is the correct term

It has 3 12v rails and one 5 v rail.

I now only use 2 12v rails and underlcock the whole system as much as I can get away with - so its hardly on but its well overspec'd as I didnt realise at the time

 

[cheeseboy]

The motherboard is powered via a Linear Power Supply either directly from the best solutions or via a Pico PSU which takes 12v input and converts that 5v and 3.3v - this adds noise but is a much easier and cheaper solution.

The CPU is directly powered 12v via a Linear Power Supply - obviously you have to plug into the motherboard but its not powered from the pico psu it gets its own power

but it's not externally powered as you claimed. It's just powered by another psu.

The os and music storage drives such as in my audio pc are powered 5V via external batteries. There are even better versions of these you can buy I have not tried one yet

why would you want to do this? Given you use jplay to buffer everything in to RAM? Once the data is handed off in to RAM the hard drives play no part in the operation.

The jcat usb card take power from the pcie bus - buts its filtered to reduce noise and this is where the dual extertise of JpLay this is what we want and adnanco this is how you do it and manufacture it has worked out so well.

However the jcat card is still better with an external power supply such as an external battery or linear because even very well filtered the motherboarnd environment is still worse due to the high nosie environment

easy to test. Plug everything in, turn on amp, turn up amp - do you hear anything? If you do, then yes, you may need some form of isolation/filtering, if not, it's not an issue. One of the biggest causes of the rf noise is the fans, so if you remove them and go silent, it's very rarely an issue unless you have grounding problems.

If you look at the JPlay forum loads of people have done this and will testify to the improvements. This is not all they have done - removed all fans, isolate as much as possible

the issue is that by the time one has done a change such as removing fans etc and then rebooted, your memory will not be able to acurately compare the before and after.

use either the OS optimiser or scripts from CAD.

or even better, use a properly optimised os such as daphile which is compiled to only have the bits for playback/networking needed. Seems daft to take something and cripple it when you can work from the ground up and only include what you need with linux would you not think?

There is loads to do that all adds up - but what is funny most will testify that everything makes a difference that they try. I have found the same to be true.

Testify on oath under scientific conditions, or just a random post on a random internet message board? (not trying to be funny, but just pointing out there's a marked difference between the two)

A lot of people leave their audio pc's on all the time as they sound terrible for an hour or so from cold - work that one out

and I can testify that having done a lot of recording in studios and suchlike it was never an issue. That's a contradictory view to yours, but no less or more valid.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

'Jplay sounds really good' - was your friends comment? Just wonder how he managed to disect your system and its environment then able to attribute its obvious quality to Jplay. Seems to me you have some quality components probably in a decent room and a CD player/CD might sound good?

Enjoy.