What does a subwoofer add to the music ?

[My2Cents]

I know they are directional/mono devices but have to be 80hz or lower (crossover), not like you typical cheap pc speaker with tiny front,main speakers that can't play any deep voices and therefor the sub also has to play some of the midrange

Nearfield is usage close to where you sit, not far away form the listning position

Pointless to place the sub close to where you sit.
80Hz wave is 4.29 metres long, 50Hz = 6.86 and 20Hz is 17.16 metres long.
These low frequencies are omni directional and rely on reflection to be heard.
With a sub you are relying on the wave to be bounced around the room. Much of it will just go straight through the walls. Modes/standing waves will be created which can cancel out other frequencies (that the main speakers are reproducing). Some mid frequencies may 'disappear' due to the sub. unless the whole set up is very carefully planned.

 

[gasolin]

Pointless to place the sub close to where you sit.
80Hz wave is 4.29 metres long, 50Hz = 6.86 and 20Hz is 17.16 metres long.
These low frequencies are omni directional and rely on reflection to be heard.
With a sub you are relying on the wave to be bounced around the room. Much of it will just go straight through the walls. Modes/standing waves will be created which can cancel out other frequencies (that the main speakers are reproducing). Some mid frequencies may 'disappear' due to the sub. unless the whole set up is very carefully planned.

Im placing it where i have the space also limited by the length of my subwoofer cable, 3 meter

 

[My2Cents]

Im placing it where i have the space also limited by the length of my subwoofer cable, 3 meter

What's a sub woofer cable? RCA to RCA? Amazon has a 10 metre RCA sub cable for 20 bucks.
BTW, I highly recommend NOT using the 'LFE out' on your amp for music, it typically bypasses any crossover control on the sub. (unless your amplifier allows you to set the LFE crossover frequency).

 

[gasolin]

Subwoofers can be great, but setting one up is not straightforward.

In fact most small UK homes should use smaller speakers with a sub.

I would rather buy something cheap and not be able to place and adjust it perfectly then having bough something expensive i couldn't get to work perfectly

 

[My2Cents]

I would rather buy something cheap and not be able to place and adjust it perfectly then having bough something expensive i couldn't get to work perfectly

Buy cheap... buy twice (as they say).
Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

 

[gasolin]

What's a sub woofer cable? RCA to RCA? Amazon has a 10 metre RCA sub cable for 20 bucks.
BTW, I highly recommend NOT using the 'LFE out' on your amp for music, it typically bypasses any crossover control on the sub. (unless your amplifier allows you to set the LFE crossover frequency).

I don't need 10 meters

What do you mean by LFE out ?

 

[gasolin]

Buy cheap... buy twice (as they say).
Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

Just because it's expensive doens't mean it's easier to intergrate with your room,speaker

I have read about some with lygdorf amps with room correction that even when they used it, it didn't do anything for them

 

[My2Cents]

Subwoofers can be great, but setting one up is not straightforward.

In fact most small UK homes should use smaller speakers with a sub.

Please.... No!
It's bad enough when just one neighbor has one, we don't need one in every home. 50 - 150Hz bass throbbing down the entire terrace all hours of the day creating more noise pollution. They need to pass a law against it.
Just like all those abandoned and rusting satellite dishes that adorn 10 million or more homes all over the country that create visual pollution.

 

[My2Cents]

I don't need 10 meters

What do you mean by LFE out ?

View attachment 7036

I'm just pointing out that RCA cables are not expensive!
Don't worry, you don't appear to have an LFE out. I guess you are going to use the 'pre outs'
I believe that these pre outs on this amp. are 'fixed output' and so when you adjust the volume on your main speakers the sub volume won't change.

 

[My2Cents]

"... it didn't do anything for them"

I think this is true for the set up of just about anything in life, regardless of cost.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

I'm just pointing out that RCA cables are not expensive!
Don't worry, you don't appear to have an LFE out. I guess you are going to use the 'pre outs'
I believe that these pre outs on this amp. are 'fixed output' and so when you adjust the volume on your main speakers the sub volume won't change.

I think Mission have made a horrible mistake in their manual for this pre-out:

The Mission 778X can work as a preamplifier. Simply connect the RCA cable between the Mission 778X and the input of a power amplifier. This output can also be used for a fixed level output for use with a subwoofer, for example

One should never connect a subwoofer or power amplifier to a fixed level output. They do say the 778X can be used as a preamplifier - which is what pre-out implies - and this should be a variable output controlled by the 778X.

 

[My2Cents]

I think Mission have made a horrible mistake in their manual for this pre-out:

The Mission 778X can work as a preamplifier. Simply connect the RCA cable between the Mission 778X and the input of a power amplifier. This output can also be used for a fixed level output for use with a subwoofer, for example

One should never connect a subwoofer or power amplifier to a fixed level output. They do say the 778X can be used as a preamplifier - which is what pre-out implies - and this should be a variable output controlled by the 778X.

I guess the question is... is this just a mistake in the manual or is this how the pre outs behave in the real world? (if the world is indeed 'real') LOL

 

[My2Cents]

Funny thing is, gasolin was asking questions about budget sub woofers in a post back in April 2023!

 

[Deliriumbassist]

I guess the question is... is this just a mistake in the manual or is this how the pre outs behave in the real world? (if the world is indeed 'real') LOL

Nothing in the manual about switching between variable (standard pre-out usage) and fixed (for, say, recording purposes). Both of which are described as uses in the manual blurb I c/p'd earlier.

So seems like incompetent manual editing to me.

 

[gasolin]

I think Mission have made a horrible mistake in their manual for this pre-out:

The Mission 778X can work as a preamplifier. Simply connect the RCA cable between the Mission 778X and the input of a power amplifier. This output can also be used for a fixed level output for use with a subwoofer, for example

One should never connect a subwoofer or power amplifier to a fixed level output. They do say the 778X can be used as a preamplifier - which is what pre-out implies - and this should be a variable output controlled by the 778X.

Even when it's not optimal i can use it with speaker cable

 

[gasolin]

I need a little advice on cable

I looked at what cables i have. What i have is lfe to stereo in and just mono

Both end (amp,subwoofer) are stereo

What cable should i buy not so much which brand but cable for a subwoofer with stereo out and in

im not shure if a normal stereo cable,interconnects are good enough but i don't seem to find any stereo cable made for subwoofers

Found a thread about subwoofer cable

I had found an audio discussion where someone explained it. On a basic level, the mono driver requires 2 incoming volts to properly drive. One single RCA output delivers 1 volt of signal. Using that one input will cause the driver to activate and make bass, this is true. But using both RCA inputs doubles the voltage and the driver functions much better.

 

[Stuart83]

Sub woofers are about 'feeling' the sound.
They are not typically designed as 'subtle bass enhancers'. They became popular with the advent of home theater, movie 'rumble' and EDM bass heavy type music.

'Dialing one in' to be 'subtle' is almost impossible and one would probably do better just purchasing some other speakers.
Sub woofers are designed to be onmi directional/mono devices that can be placed anywhere in the room and therefore are not 'near field' devices.
Even in a studio/mixing room they get switched on and off a lot... often used to simply 'check that the bass is OK' (unless one is mixing 5.1, 7.1, Dolby Atmos, Rap, EDM, House etc.).
I think that you are barking up the wrong tree.
I very rarely use my sub anymore as my floorstanders (in a treated room) produce plenty of tight, clean bass when listening to the likes of Depeche Mode, Kraftwerk, Pet Shop Boys, Erasure etc.
The sub (even when set to 'very subtle' mode) just adds a low layer of bbuuumphhh ..... that does nothing to enhance the music.

I concur.
I've used subs in smaller systems as mentioned but found large quality floorstander are exponentially better at achieving a clean accurate representation of wherever is being played.

Running subs seamless as people mention "as if they are not there" is rather pointless (with speakers that don't need any extra anything) which indeed brings in its own phasing issues etc.

From what I've gathered from prior comments the OP is using triangle Titus ez ?

A frequency of 55Hz to 22kHz (the lowest note on a piano is 27hz)
Lower bass being anything below 40hz.
This is an impressive number for small speakers even lower than some floorstanders.
I'm not sure what would be gained by a cheaper sub woofer trying to contend with already existing quality speakers.

It would normally bring into question the amp in which the mission 778x instantly negates.
(I demoed that amp at length and in line with the reviews heard it at being very capable)

Perhaps a quality equaliser as I bought for the opposite problem of too much bass would give you a way of elevating what your speakers are already "more" capable of.

I have a second vintage set up, the inclusive pioneer a-400 amp is without tone controls and would go that deep with QA 3050i's my jeans would vibrate making my legs itchy (no joke it would also bring things off the shelf) 😕
I've had large subs that can't replicate the inherint bass of a good lone pair of floorstanders.

The "Triangle Titus" speakers even go 3hz lower so your setup is certainly not lacking the capability to give you the vicerale bass your after.

I must admit it's been my experience that speakers with drivers below 6" are naturally never going to sound as naturally good with bass despite specs, I've never heard bass produced as good with smaller speakers bringing physics into play.
I find a sweet spot of 8" with floorstanders but that's personal preference, many with true 6" drivers can move enough air to land the police at your door.

I bought a quality equaliser (Bellari EQ 570) that does not negatively impinge on the signal which has a complete tear down review-

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/203557-bellari-eq570-analog-eq-measurements/

And further flying reviews

Bellari EQ570–WOW WOW WOW

Oh wow!! I just got the EQ570 a few minutes ago, and currently listening to music through it as I type this. I have goosebumps. My home office stereo system has been bugging me for years now—it doesn’t have the same uumph! factor as my main system. It lacks liveliness, and not as engaging...

audiosciencereview.com

I can say personally it's a good little solution for enhancing an (already existing) frequency response.

Maybe modifying what your system is already capable of.
But then again maybe like me when you get and itch to scratch your best off just scratching it and trying a sub woofer.

One of the best budget sub woofers I've heard is the "wharfdale SW-150".
I demoed a few in that category whilst looking for a sub to cover movie SFX in a second hifi.

Home review

A true champion of subwoofers, in terms of performance and price – it’s a quality piece of budget equipment

www.whathifi.com

It runs clean and powerful bass without sounding muddy.

I admit it remains off for most of the time as the floorstanders make it completely pointless but for movies it's good.

Despite going up a few notches for my main hifi and after many demoes at RS then purchasing a bigger and better sub woofer it also now after changing to large fyne audio floorstanders remains off.

Just a thought 💭

 

[gasolin]

Perhaps a quality equaliser as I bought for the opposite problem of too much bass would give you a way of elevating what your speakers are already "more" capable of.

Not gonna happen at all, 100% shure of that

How the hell am i gonna connect it ? Preout ? How is the sound then going back in my amp ? what if i use bt, turntable,digital in

If i use usb in on my amp (pc) how am i gonna send the sound from the EQ to the amp, i can only use usb, nothing else at the same time that sends sound into the amp, that gives my amp sound other then what is comming in from my pc thru usb

Seems like my amp performans pretty good, menaing the speakers are 4-5 ohm at a wide frequency so the load on my amp is more 4 ohm than 8 ohm (bass and midrange)

I can play fairly loud but the bass extention is not that low around 55-60hz at -3db, that is fine but if you want bass extension (more than techno loud deeper bass, deeper and much loud bass under 55-50hz) an eq won't do it at all

My speakers can play loud and if i had to adjust the bass (under 50hz) the woofer,bass would move alot when trying to play edm and no more than medium loud, it would so much lower the max spl, how much i can raise the volume before it can't do more

By some magic IT WON'T play the same max spl if you trying to make a bookshelf speaker with a 5.25" bass,midrange have a lower bass extention where it might have -3 db at 40 hz then 57 hz

Many say get a subwoofer that goes down to under 30hz, 40 hz might be great for a bookshelf speaker but for a subwoofer unlees it's one of those how can play insanly loud 40hz -3db is not impressive, shure if it's a 5" woofer but then it might not play loud, 18" it might play super loud but you would miss some bass extention realtive to it's size, where one that goes under 30hz might still be able to play 10-20 db louder then you need,like to listen to


A frequency of 55Hz to 22kHz (the lowest note on a piano is 27hz)
Lower bass being anything below 40hz.
This is an impressive number for small speakers even lower than some floorstanders.

Not really impressive, all at -3db

Dynaudio emit m10 50hz

Dali Oberon 1 51 hz

ARGON AUDIO FORUS 5 50hz

B&W 607 S3 52hz -6db 40hz

 

[twinkletoes]

@gasolin. Sorry I haven’t read everything.

Your speakers will “need” a subwoofer to even replicate a bass guitar faithful so have no idea what’s being said above. You don’t have floor standers so a subwoofer with a healthy 35hz out will be fine. Set it where you can/your willing to place it and I gather your amp doesn’t have bass management so it will need be on the same plain as the speaker. You will have to move it backwards and forwards to manually adjust bass delay.

Connection wise Just use some well shielded RCA’s from your pre-outs and plug them into the red and whites on the subwoofer Amazon basics cable will do . If you have binding posts on the subwoofer you can high pass. But not all amp like doing this especially some class d/hybrid amps.

If your amp has a dedicated sub out use this and plug into the terminal marked lfe and let amp do the bass management BUT not many 2 channel amps that carry a subwoofer out have bass management so rather pointless.

Adjust the roll off to around 50hx to account for room gain of the speakers leave the phase at 0 for now and adjust the volume to taste. I use to run my subwoofers slightly hot. If you want it to blend really nicely play some acoustic music with a nice bass guitar or jazz with a double bass you should feel its presence but not dominate the music.

Hope that helps a little and hope that makes sense I’m writing this on my phone while setting tiles

 

[gasolin]

I have long interconnects + mono sub + lfe to stereo sub cable

One mentioned cheap subwoofer and something negative trying to get good bass out of a cheap subwoofer paired with expensive,good front speakers + a good amp

Cheap doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's not new and therefor you don't have to pay full price or close to it

Wharfedale sw-150 was on sale a week or 2 ago for 200 euros but i was upgrading my cpu,gpu,ram/memory and i needed to get a new keyboard do to errors on my almost 3 year old keyboard, so used subwoofer it was

My titus ez are good speaker they don't at all have intrusive,agressive,loud highs, good sensitivity, despite that they are not super loud, i would have a hard time finding new speakers if i wanted to have lower bass extention or lower bass extention + higher sensitvity without getting 8" speakers (not fan of klisch )

Because if the highs i don't wanna have a loud techno kind of bass but smooth bass extention as if i were to upgrade to the traingle Antal ez Bandwith (+/-3dB Hz) : 40Hz-22 000Hz (according to the 40 year anniversary antal ez, it's down by 6 db compared to 0 (ref point) at 40hz)

It will distroy the fine balance if the added bass extention would be super loud, almost techno party like, when playing pop,rock music

 

[twinkletoes]

All very possible just takes some tweaking and it won’t destroy the balance. Just find the roll off point in the room which I/we can only suggest a starting point as we don’t know the in room response of your speakers. As I said try 50hz, it will be quite the upgrade when done right.

And your quite right a subwoofer or speaker doesn’t need to be expensive to be good/fantatsic but you generally get what your pay for when buying subwoofers as they have a hard life really.

Set it up and report back what your feelings are assuming you have it that is!

 

[gasolin]

If i had the money to buy a new subwoofer i wouldn't buy anything more expensive than what the jamo sub costs when it was new or a wharfedale sw-150 when it's for sale for 200 euros

 

[gasolin]

arrived

Alot smaller than i thought

50% volume and 80-90hz crossover (min is 40hz max is 150hz so 50% is 95hz)

Not intrusive boomy at this setting (a much better subwoofer would of course sound better)

Some normal music recommendations for testing

 

[gasolin]

Simple youtube hz test

A little down around 75-85hz, higher than 75hz deeper than 85hz

32-31hz is the limit not bad for a used sub i mediocre condition for not alot of money

Can i give it a little more at 80hz +/-5 hz, subwoofer gain level,crossover or tweaking placement

 

[Rui]

i never felt the need of one because my speakers all have good bass sound but when in need i conect either than a set of litle speaker, a old set of speakers with big woofer to increase the bass line, more or less the same input power