Want tighter bass

[FennerMachine]

I'm currently very happy with the sound of my system.

The only thing that I would like to try to do is tighten up the bass.

I don't want to change any cables.

I do not want to change my speakers.

The biggest improvement I've experienced is changing pre-amp, it reinvigorated my listening experience.

Do you think a service on my pre-amp may help? Perhaps having some newer but similar components fitted?

I don't want to massively alter the overall balance of sound but just tighten the bass a little.

What would you suggest?

 

[Petherick]

Have you tried moving them? It's free and may do the job...

 

[The_Lhc]

The SA1's a standmount isn't it? What are they sitting on?

 

[FennerMachine]

I could try moving them, good suggestion!

They are on stands with metal top, bottom and support struts with solid wood main pillar.

I think they are IF designs Tallis stands.

Speakers attached to top plate by blu-tack – didn't want to mark the speakers with spikes.

 

[The_Lhc]

And what are the stands sitting on?

 

[FennerMachine]

Spiked into a carpeted floor.

Floor consist of: floor boards, MDF layer over floor boards, underlay, thick carpet with its own underlay.

This was done as an attempt to limit sound travelling downstairs, the sound system is in a bedroom used exclusively for Hi-Fi and AV.

 

[Al ears]

Well its going to cost you........................
I would strongly suggest selling your speaker stands (if they are what you say they are) and buy the dedicated stands designed for your SA1's!

 

[hoopsontoast]

Something like the Older Target R series might do the trick. The R2's I have transformed my speakers (Both ATC SCM7 and Keesonic Kolts, both similar in design to the SA1's)

Warning they are very heavy though.

 

[bluedroog]

Speaker position was the first thing that came to me too, you'd be surprised how much difference moving certain speakers around can make. Side walls, rear walls and the toe-in can all effect sound, particularly bass.

Also do you use stands and if so have you filled them? Filling them with sand or similar can also tighten up bass by reducing resonance and giving them a solid base.

You could also consider adding some room treatment, this could simply been with soft furnishings such as rugs, cushion or curtains or by using acoustic panels appropriately placed. Even relatively small ones correctly placed can yield impressive results. I realise for aesthetic reason this may not be possible for everyone but some can be quite subtle especially if placed behind your speakers. Often a very cheap and effective upgrade.

Have you ever tired room analyzing softwarere? not something I've ever really tried other than a basic room EQ for AV duties but I believe the XTZ kit has been quite well received. system/room-analyzer

 

[CnoEvil]

I think we've touched on this before.

The suggestions made above are all sensible, but I've a hunch that it may take an amp with lots of current, like something from Musical Fidelity, Electrocompaniet, Leema or ATC.

IMO Their own stands will make a difference, but on balance I would prefer to tuck this money away towards a new amp......did you see the replacement for the Quad 909 is now out (Elite QSP).
http://www.whathifi.com/news/quad-unveils-elite-qsp-stereo-power-amp-to-replace-909

 

[Al ears]

I think we've touched on this before. The suggestions made above are all sensible, but I've a hunch that it may take an amp with lots of current, like something from Musical Fidelity, Electrocompaniet, Leema or ATC. IMO Their own stands will make a difference, but on balance I would prefer to tuck this money away towards a new amp......did you see the replacement for the Quad 909 is now out (Elite QSP). http://www.whathifi.com/news/quad-unveils-elite-qsp-stereo-power-amp-to-replace-909

Not sure how this helps the OP. He has a Cyrus system which has plenty of power (110w) and current, more than sufficient to drive SA1's in my opinion.
Perhaps others know otherwise!

 

[Inter_Voice]

I think get a better CDP may also help.

 

[CnoEvil]

Not sure how this helps the OP. He has a Cyrus system which has plenty of power (110w) and current, more than sufficient to drive SA1's in my opinion. Perhaps others know otherwise!

It may help or it may not. I have heard how favorably the SA1s react to a lot of power.

eg. The M6i has 200 Watts (8 Ohms) which doubles into 4 Ohms and again into 2 Ohms, as well as having 45 Amps peak to peak current.

The Cyrus, as you say, has 110W (8 Ohms) and 150W into 4 Ohms, with 30A peak current....this (imo) will drive them adequately rather than brilliantly. Cyrus do a lot of things well, but can have a leaner presentation, which may not be the best match with the 150mm LF woofer, if deep, tight, powerful bass is the goal.

It was just another suggestion to add to the pot.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm currently very happy with the sound of my system.

The only thing that I would like to try to do is tighten up the bass.

I don't want to change any cables.

I do not want to change my speakers.

The biggest improvement I've experienced is changing pre-amp, it reinvigorated my listening experience.

Do you think a service on my pre-amp may help? Perhaps having some newer but similar components fitted?

I don't want to massively alter the overall balance of sound but just tighten the bass a little.

What would you suggest?

Spendor SA-1 are very taut and pretty fast, likewise Cyrus. I would suggest the culprit is the preamp, but whether you plump for a different pre or change configuration to an integrated, only a dem will tell you.

 

[Anonymous]

When the SA1s were tested by Hifi World they found that their impedance was pretty stable and never dropped low in any particular nasty way. The conclusion was that they don't need lots of current but need plenty of volts due to their lower sensitivity. This is likely to be partly due to the infinite baffle design. Having said all that, you could do worse than try a different amp at a dealership to see what happens.

In my experience, having them near to a rear wall boosted their bass but not very smoothly. Given that they have a bit of a boost in the upper bass, this can make them sound less clear and flabbier. Are they near a rear wall or even near corners? I used mine well away from the rear wall. Toeing them in also made them sound a little brighter and less bassy, but this latter effect may be just due to the balance rather than less bass.

 

[FennerMachine]

CnoEvil, yes we have touched on this before and thank you for your reply!

I must say that the Quad pre-amp has made a massive difference.

Perhaps one of there power amps will do the job.

That would give me 2 x Smart Powers and a aCA7.5 going spare.

igglebert, you owned a pair of SA1's didn't you?

Room is about 3.3M x 2.8M plus a small L section.

Speakers are approximately 24cm from rear walls and 46cm from side walls and 180cm apart. I sit approximately 220cm from them. They are slightly toed in, facing me.

As you say, perhaps the flabbiness is from that bump in the low frequency response.

PP, I have a Cyrus aCA7.5 pre-amp but prefer the Quad overall.

Perhaps I need to try another pre-amp. I'm a little reluctant to do that as I have tried a total of three pre-amps, the other being a NAD 1240 and the Quad gave the best overall sound and I do really enjoy the sound from it but maybe that means I could get an even better sound with another pre-amp.

Inter_Voice, what CD player would you suggest?

The one I have is 10 years old but it has the Q7 dac module and a PSX-R.

It was a pricey player in its day, £800.00 plus £350.00 for the Q7 and £350.00 for the PSX-R.

But 10 years is a long time in Hi-Fi I suppose.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

 

[Al ears]

Not sure how this helps the OP. He has a Cyrus system which has plenty of power (110w) and current, more than sufficient to drive SA1's in my opinion. Perhaps others know otherwise!

It may help or it may not. I have heard how favorably the SA1s react to a lot of power. eg. The M6i has 200 Watts (8 Ohms) which doubles into 4 Ohms and again into 2 Ohms, as well as having 45 Amps peak to peak current. The Cyrus, as you say, has 110W (8 Ohms) and 150W into 4 Ohms, with 30A peak current....this (imo) will drive them adequately rather than brilliantly. Cyrus do a lot of things well, but can have a leaner presentation, which may not be the best match with the 150mm LF woofer, if deep, tight, powerful bass is the goal. It was just another suggestion to add to the pot.

I somewhat agree with your point.
He does state he is happy with the sound of his system so I suppose, ultimately, he may be faced with changing his speakers rather than amp.

 

[Anonymous]

Fennermachine - yes I used to have the SA1s with a rebuilt Quad 405 Netaudio MK3 DMPSU and AVI S2000MP preamp. It was an excellent combo and for sensible money. I used them pulled quite far out into the room too.

One of the qualities of the SA1s is their speed. Compared to say the PMC DB1s you will get less bass but tighter bass. I really do think that you need to play with placement a bit. Are you certain that the bass on the music you play is as tight as you think? I don't mean to be patronising but I've played some stuff on my system that sounds flabby but it's easily demonstrated that it's the recording not the system!

If you've got some budget to play with, arrange a demo with a couple of different amps from a dealer, ideally borrow one at a time and try them at home.

 

[FennerMachine]

I’ll try moving the speakers around a bit first.

Also, as you suggested igglebert it may be the music, I will have to do some test with different CD’s, see if it’s the recordings. It may be that the flabbier sounding music is supposed to be like that!

 

[Anonymous]

I find the Michael Jackson CDs very well produced. If you want something with good bass and plenty of slam, MJ is your man (whatever your tastes may be is another matter).

 

[CnoEvil]

Hifi is a weird, wonderful and oft frustrating hobby.....who'da thought that a Quad pre-amp would have worked out so well with Cyrus Monos - certainly not me.

There are so many variables at play, not least of which is personal taste. We can all throw out suggestions till the cows come home (and a knowledgeable owner's insight is worth more than most), but there is no substitute for trial and error (with an open mind).

IMO You start off with the cheap fixes first, ie Placement and isolation (granite etc); then work through possible improvements with better cables, mains leads and stands (borrowed from a dealer).

If the more minor tweaks aren't enough, then try amps and sources....though I've personally found the quality of the amp has usually had the most profound effect on the quality of the bass.

IMO There is nothing for it, but to work through this process without taking shortcuts....and the knowledge gained by doing so is invaluable.

 

[CJSF]

'Flaby bass', 'Blu Tak' . . . ? How much Blu Tak, to much can cause 'flab'. Four (not three or five) small pea size blobs and well!!! pressed down. Dont much like the sound (image) of those stand either, sadly there are few??? decent stand avaliable these days . . . a personal view of course.

CJSF

 

[FennerMachine]

Blu Tac!

I had 4 large blobs, about 1 inch diameter and quite deep!

Reduced to 3 small blobs each speaker, used about 1/16th of the total original Blu Tac.

Flabbiness almost completely gone, bass is tighter.

The rest of the frequency range has benefited, the mids and highs are more defined and timing appears a bit better.

How a bit of patience and changing something seemingly minor can make such a large difference!

Dad is happy as well as I can listen 1 notch higher on the volume but less of the sound is travelling down stairs.

I might play around with speaker positioning next week but I don't think I will need to change anything.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

 

[FennerMachine]

I was looking at changing my SmartPower's for something else, Quad 405-2.

I had several very good and VERY tempting suggestions for alternative amps!

Thought I would follow some of the suggestions on this earlier thread first.

I moved the speakers about 5cm further away from the rear wall.

They are now about 45cm from the side walls, no change, and 31cm from the rear wall, 5cm change. The entire sound stage, presentation, bass response, detail, everything has changed!

I have spent many hours demoing Hi-Fi & AV systems and have bought several different systems over the past 15 years.

I have played with the positioning, toe in, cables, bi-amping, tried previous systems on all four walls in my current room until I found the best position.

After all of this past tweaking I didn't think myself of changing the speaker distance from the rear wall. I could have ended up spending over £2000.00 to fix the 'problem'!

Instead, a little playing around and following the suggestions of various frequenters of these forums has saved me a small fortune! Thank you everyone!

I may change my amplification in the future as I'm sure these speakers are still only giving me a glimpse of there potential but for now I am happy with my system.

Again, thank you everyone!

 

[CnoEvil]

I was looking at changing my SmartPower's for something else, Quad 405-2.

I had several very good and VERY tempting suggestions for alternative amps!

Thought I would follow some of the suggestions on this earlier thread first.

I moved the speakers about 5cm further away from the rear wall.

They are now about 45cm from the side walls, no change, and 31cm from the rear wall, 5cm change. The entire sound stage, presentation, bass response, detail, everything has changed!

I have spent many hours demoing Hi-Fi & AV systems and have bought several different systems over the past 15 years.

I have played with the positioning, toe in, cables, bi-amping, tried previous systems on all four walls in my current room until I found the best position.

After all of this past tweaking I didn't think myself of changing the speaker distance from the rear wall. I could have ended up spending over £2000.00 to fix the 'problem'!

Instead, a little playing around and following the suggestions of various frequenters of these forums has saved me a small fortune! Thank you everyone!

I may change my amplification in the future as I'm sure these speakers are still only giving me a glimpse of there potential but for now I am happy with my system.

Again, thank you everyone!

Satisfaction at no extra cost, is the ideal solution.

:cheers:

Cno