Vinyl...bit deflated.

[stevebrock]

i must admit i dont suffer with pops & clicks it is not a regular thing for me !

I was spinning some vinyl the other day and my father in law was gobsmacked to how clear it sounded and couldnt belive it was vinyl as he just remembered noisy pops & clicks.

Then I spent the next 30 minutes explaining about all things vinyl and TTs Carts etc

PS some of my vinyl is noisy but you accept it, if it annoys you then vinyl isnt for you

 

[chebby]

Pops and clicks are completely unacceptable and many can be eliminated with a Keith Monks clean and a new anti-stat inner sleeve. (My local s/h record shop had a twin platter KM machine that was regularly replenished - by KM themselves from the Isle Of Wight - so I had every purchase cleaned and re-sleeved before taking it home.

Any record with stubborn pops and clicks remaining after the KM clean and new sleeve were taken back and replaced with a better example - if possible - or not at all. (I'd get the CD if a decent LP wasn't possible.) In 27 years of playing LPs I never had a stylus that was too worn or chipped. My Goldring 1042 that I had for 11 years had two replacement styli in that period. Always used the recommended tracking force (or a value in the middle of the recommended range).

I always used a geometry - in setting up a new cartridge - that favoured outer grooves because, typically, some of the best tracks were found there. (Stevenson.)

'Back in the day' a brand new LP would be purchased with a TDK SA C90 cassette to make a recording whilst the record was still new. That meant less wear (and dust) on the LP as you'd usually play the tape for casual/background listening and just get out the LP for occasions when you wanted that extra immediacy/oomph/quality. (Or just to watch the LP spinning on your nice TT 'cos they look good!)

 

[Covenanter]

As I have recounted before, I had a top-notch vinyl system back in the day (Thorens, Hadcock, AKG) and I was very happy with it. Then the first CDs came out and I hated them, they were shrill and metallic and hard to listen to. Then the engineeers found out how to make digital recordings and it was clear to me that CDs represented true high fidelity, i.e. truthfulness to the original. I switched then and have never regretted it and would never go back.

Chris

 

[drummerman]

I have started late, probably about 6 years or so ago and would not go back to not using vinyl.

It is a different kind of listening. Almost as you have to teach yourself to be patient, listening to a whole side, a few tracks withouth skipping any (remember that?)

It has its time and place though. It is not for casual background listening. For that a finger swipe on a screen with a little spotify is more convenient.

Dim the lights however, turn the turntable light on (Ikea of course), glass of wine, sit back ... watch and listen ... magic.

 

[chebby]

Dim the lights however, turn the turntable light on (Ikea of course), glass of wine, sit back ...

... on the record player by accident because it's too dark and you've drunk too much.

 

[matthewpiano]

My approach is one of listening to complete works or albums whatever the source. It is very rare for me to play selected tracks on a CD or LP. This is partly because of my main interest being classical music where one or two works often take up the whole disc, and partly because I favour the album approach to most other music too.

I tend to have an inconsistent relationship with vinyl. I've got a decent collection and it is a good mix of older copies and new pressings. Most of them have been cleaned using my Disco Antistat and I have a carbon brush for pre-play dust, and a stylus cleaning brush. The vast majority sound good, with relatively few clicks and pops, and one thing I will say about the RB303 arm and Elys2 cartridge is that they track consistently well through both inner and outer grooves, and there are no issues with end-of-side distortion or similar.

Ultimately vinyl is always going to be secondary to CD for me. I have a much larger collection of silver discs, and CD is absolutely superior as a carrier of classical music due to the complete lack of additional background noise (as long as you have a player with a quiet transport), the ability to continuously play a larger work without having to turn the disc over, speed stability, and the space that CD booklets afford for better liner notes and easily manageable translations of libretti/text.

The biggest problem with vinyl for me is the price of new pressings. The £25-£35 price on much new vinyl is too much and not justified in the scheme of things. The 2nd hand market occasionally offers some worthwhile buys in good condition, but some of the prices there are somewhat out of hand. Last time I went to a record fair £250 was being asked for one Gentle Giant album in nothing more than OK condition, and that sort of price isn't a particularly rare sight.

 

[iMark]

We quite like playing LPs. I inherted hundreds of them from my parents and many of them are in excellent condition.

My other half has taken quite a fancy to the new record player I bought in 2012 and we both have bought new vinyl since. (I lost my own vinyl/CD/tape collection and my hifi in a house fire in 2000).

One way to get the best of both worlds is to record your records on the computer. I use very decent software for removing noise, clicks and pops (Vinyl Studio). The recorded vinyl than ends up in the iTunes library so we can easily transfer the albums to an iPod Nano or stream them. When I've cleaned older records with the Disco Antistat I will record them. We also record our brand new albums.

One of the great advantages of creating your own digital files from vinyl is that you don't get the compressed modern sound they use in CDs.

 

[chebby]

It is a different kind of listening. Almost as you have to teach yourself to be patient, listening to a whole side, a few tracks withouth skipping any (remember that?)

No. I always skipped the 'filler' tracks. The ones the band had to produce in order to fulfill their contract of x albums per year or whatever. I can only think of a few 'albums' where the 'artist's vision' (retch) stretched as far as a whole LP's worth of decent tunes.

 

[Frank Harvey]

That's a nice looking turntable tino - what is it? I can imagine that in a nice deep blue...

 

[Frank Harvey]

The biggest problem with vinyl for me is the price of new pressings. The £25-£35 price on much new vinyl is too much and not justified in the scheme of things. The 2nd hand market occasionally offers some worthwhile buys in good condition, but some of the prices there are somewhat out of hand.

Most of what we have is between £10-with the only pressings above £30 are the greedy artists or the extremely high quality pressings from Mobile Fidelity, Analogue Producrions, and Audio Fidelity, are usually two disc, 200gram, and 45rpm - as good as it gets.

On the other hand, I once hesitated buying two copies of Daft Punk's Tron soundtrack at £30/35 each - once they'd gone, they were instantly fetching £300-400 each. I did buy Boards Of Canada's Geogaddi on release for £30 back in about 1999, never opened it, and it now fetches up to about £300. The point is that whilst £35 might seem a lot of money, it can be a decent investment, as six months down the line it might've doubled or tripled in value if it was a limited run. If you bought two copies, it is quite feasible to sell the second copy on, covering the costs of both copies, so you've got your copy for free. It won't always be the case, but it's nice when it happens. You may not be willing to pay that sort of price, but there are others out there who will.

Last time I went to a record fair £250 was being asked for one Gentle Giant album in nothing more than OK condition, and that sort of price isn't a particularly rare sight.

Record fairs are now expensive places to buy vinyl as they're trying to get as much as they can for what they've invested in.

 

[Vladimir]

Upgraditis effects most of us, but watching vids like that can make us realise/remember that it's about finding a system that is good enough to enjoy the music we listen to, it doesn't have to be the best in the world, there are lots of good systems/components to chose from these days, that better those from 30 years ago, in approximately the same price brackets. Once found, its game on, and bring on the music.

You described the essence of that video beautifully. And I think the idea that we must listen to music every day of our lives otherwise our system probably sucks is misguided. When the hearts wants, the kit is there to play with and make us feel good. This hobby makes us too nervous, intense and obsessive instead of relax and enjoy what we have. A kid is happy with an Aiwa center, many adults will never be happy even with a $100K systems.

 

[drummerman]

It is a different kind of listening. Almost as you have to teach yourself to be patient, listening to a whole side, a few tracks withouth skipping any (remember that?)

No. I always skipped the 'filler' tracks. The ones the band had to produce in order to fulfill their contract of x albums per year or whatever. I can only think of a few 'albums' where the 'artist's vision' (retch) stretched as far as a whole LP's worth of decent tunes.

Of course you did ...

 

[drummerman]

Dim the lights however, turn the turntable light on (Ikea of course), glass of wine, sit back ...

... on the record player by accident because it's too dark and you've drunk too much.

Not yet but never say never

 

[matthewpiano]

Upgraditis effects most of us, but watching vids like that can make us realise/remember that it's about finding a system that is good enough to enjoy the music we listen to, it doesn't have to be the best in the world, there are lots of good systems/components to chose from these days, that better those from 30 years ago, in approximately the same price brackets. Once found, its game on, and bring on the music.

You described the essence of that video beautifully. And I think the idea that we must listen to music every day of our lives otherwise our system probably sucks is misguided. When the hearts wants, the kit is there to play with and make us feel good. This hobby makes us too nervous, intense and obsessive instead of relax and enjoy what we have. A kid is happy with an Aiwa center, many adults will never be happy even with a $100K systems.

One of the best things you've ever written on this forum Vlad. Totally agree, and it is a realisation that has come to me quite significantly over the last week.

 

[tino]

I don't think vinyl will ever be anything but an occasional fancy for me any more ...... the vagaries and compromises of vinyl seem inexcusable weaknesses from the stone age.

My sentiments exactly. After selling my turntable I won't be going back. I do however understand the emotional attachment to vinyl and turntables can be lovely things to look at.

Now if someone made a streamer that looked like a turntable that would be something .... some hybrid device sans arm/cartridge and where the platter was replaced by something like this ............. *ok*

 

[tino]

That's a nice looking turntable tino - what is it? I can imagine that in a nice deep blue...

The company is called Montegiro .... http://www.montegiro.de/en/

They have some nice looking turntables, and a frighful looking one called Lusso.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Upgraditis effects most of us, but watching vids like that can make us realise/remember that it's about finding a system that is good enough to enjoy the music we listen to, it doesn't have to be the best in the world, there are lots of good systems/components to chose from these days, that better those from 30 years ago, in approximately the same price brackets. Once found, its game on, and bring on the music.

You described the essence of that video beautifully. And I think the idea that we must listen to music every day of our lives otherwise our system probably sucks is misguided. When the hearts wants, the kit is there to play with and make us feel good. This hobby makes us too nervous, intense and obsessive instead of relax and enjoy what we have. A kid is happy with an Aiwa center, many adults will never be happy even with a $100K systems.

One of the best things you've ever written on this forum Vlad. Totally agree, and it is a realisation that has come to me quite significantly over the last week.

Humans are wired to constantly seek 'better' and to constantly look for improvement. It's how we evolved to where we are.

A kid is only happy with an Aiwa centre until he learns that there are better machines available.

It doesn't mean 'Upgraditis' is a bad thing.

 

[davedotco]

Good turntables are great, but getting your hands on one is, to my mind, not easy.

Most of the players I have heard in the last 10 or 15 years have been pretty awful, not just the budget players, I expect little of them, but even sone 'serious' and quite expensive setups.

The picture above pretty much says it all, fantastic looks and presence (for a price) but how does it sound? Who knows, you'll probably never get to hear one!

Putting together a good player, one that works really well, is not easy particularly if you are going to do it yourself. How are you going to chose an arm if you do not know the resonant frequencies of the suspension, the cantilever-arm resonance, the correct cartridge loading and that is before you even start on the setup.

This may sound over the top, but low frequency vinyl 'roar' can be hugely magnified by resonances caused by poorly chosen components, misstracking and end of side distortion magnified by tip mass and compliance issues, m/c cartridges 'spitty' due to poor impedance matching etc, etc.

Such information used to be freely available to the enthusiast and if you were not comfortable with the complexity of all that, there were dealers who could do this for you. These days dealers tend to rely on manufacturers 'packages', many of which are simply put together to maximise sales of the manufacturers or importers lines rather than any performance reasons.

 

[Vladimir]

Upgraditis effects most of us, but watching vids like that can make us realise/remember that it's about finding a system that is good enough to enjoy the music we listen to, it doesn't have to be the best in the world, there are lots of good systems/components to chose from these days, that better those from 30 years ago, in approximately the same price brackets. Once found, its game on, and bring on the music.

You described the essence of that video beautifully. And I think the idea that we must listen to music every day of our lives otherwise our system probably sucks is misguided. When the hearts wants, the kit is there to play with and make us feel good. This hobby makes us too nervous, intense and obsessive instead of relax and enjoy what we have. A kid is happy with an Aiwa center, many adults will never be happy even with a $100K systems.

One of the best things you've ever written on this forum Vlad. Totally agree, and it is a realisation that has come to me quite significantly over the last week.

Humans are wired to constantly seek 'better' and to constantly look for improvement. It's how we evolved to where we are.

A kid is only happy with an Aiwa centre until he learns that there are better machines available.

It doesn't mean 'Upgraditis' is a bad thing.

There is a whole religion and philosophy which considers 'upgraditis' the main reason of human suffering. It's called Buddhism. Craving leads to suffering and being content leads towards tranquility. You would chuckle as an atheist of course, but mind you much of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche philosophy was based on Buddhism. Simply because it is a state resulting from evolution doesn't make it right (or wrong). Reasoning should surpas the reptilian primitive mind, otherwise it leads to negative things (obsession and neurosis to name a few). Doesn't matter which paradigm you see through, evolution or Buddhism, excess of cravings for things leads to negative behavior.

Or in not so many word "Bird in hand..."

 

[Al ears]

Upgraditis effects most of us, but watching vids like that can make us realise/remember that it's about finding a system that is good enough to enjoy the music we listen to, it doesn't have to be the best in the world, there are lots of good systems/components to chose from these days, that better those from 30 years ago, in approximately the same price brackets. Once found, its game on, and bring on the music.

You described the essence of that video beautifully. And I think the idea that we must listen to music every day of our lives otherwise our system probably sucks is misguided. When the hearts wants, the kit is there to play with and make us feel good. This hobby makes us too nervous, intense and obsessive instead of relax and enjoy what we have. A kid is happy with an Aiwa center, many adults will never be happy even with a $100K systems.

One of the best things you've ever written on this forum Vlad. Totally agree, and it is a realisation that has come to me quite significantly over the last week.

Humans are wired to constantly seek 'better' and to constantly look for improvement. It's how we evolved to where we are.

A kid is only happy with an Aiwa centre until he learns that there are better machines available.

It doesn't mean 'Upgraditis' is a bad thing.

There is a whole religion and philosophy which considers 'upgraditis' the main reason of human suffering. It's called Buddhism. Craving leads to suffering and being content leads towards tranquility. You would chuckle as an atheist of course, but mind you much of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche philosophy was based on Buddhism. Simply because it is a state resulting from evolution doesn't make it right (or wrong). Reasoning should surpas the reptilian primitive mind, otherwise it leads to negative things (obsession and neurosis to name a few). Doesn't matter which paradigm you see through, evolution or Buddhism, excess of cravings for things leads to negative behavior.

Or in not so many word "Bird in hand..."

And frequent postings on WHFSAV forums.

You are quite right though.

"Sod off, they're my juniper bushes!"

 

[Vladimir]

You can never satisfy man's eye with gold, only with a handfull of dirt.

 

[davedotco]

I 'got off' the whole upgrade nonsense about 15 years ago, my system had taken over my life, it was very expensive and very 'needy', the hours I spent trying to integrate sub woofers with my ML panels or setting and resetting my player to get the best from several fine, but different cartridges.

Up until that point I could, kind of, justify this as being part of my 'work' as a dealer, what I was learning could be passed on to my customers but when I finally gave up my shop, it all became rather too much.

A year or too later I was 'given' a rather nice amp - speaker combination in recognition of some marketing work I had done, but even that had modest use. I was no longer going to gigs regularly, neither was I buying much new music and since new music is what I thrive on my listening declined alarmingly.

It was only my membership of Spotify that started me listening again, so much new (to me) music to investigate and enjoy worked wonders. That the hi-fi quality was not a patch on what I was used to became irrelevant, it was, at last, all about the music.

 

[lindsayt]

Good turntables are great, but getting your hands on one is, to my mind, not easy...

I think that getting a good turntable is easy.

All you have to do is follow the advice of someone that knows what they're talking about. Someone that's listened to a wide variety of TT's, and isn't still brainwashed by some of the marketing nonsense that's been around in hi-fi for a long time.

And then you have to actually buy a good TT. Which you can do with a few clicks of your mouse button and less than £999. And then a road trip in your car to go and collect it.

 

[Al ears]

I 'got off' the whole upgrade nonsense about 15 years ago, my system had taken over my life, it was very expensive and very 'needy', the hours I spent trying to integrate sub woofers with my ML panels or setting and resetting my player to get the best from several fine, but different cartridges.

Up until that point I could, kind of, justify this as being part of my 'work' as a dealer, what I was learning could be passed on to my customers but when I finally gave up my shop, it all became rather too much.

A year or too later I was 'given' a rather nice amp - speaker combination in recognition of some marketing work I had done, but even that had modest use. I was no longer going to gigs regularly, neither was I buying much new music and since new music is what I thrive on my listening declined alarmingly.

It was only my membership of Spotify that started me listening again, so much new (to me) music to investigate and enjoy worked wonders. That the hi-fi quality was not a patch on what I was used to became irrelevant, it was, at last, all about the music.

Hear, hear! It took me a while to realise that and now that's what its all about, no more upgrades just buying more music.

 

[davedotco]

Good turntables are great, but getting your hands on one is, to my mind, not easy...

I think that getting a good turntable is easy.

All you have to do is follow the advice of someone that knows what they're talking about. Someone that's listened to a wide variety of TT's, and isn't still brainwashed by some of the marketing nonsense that's been around in hi-fi for a long time.

And then you have to actually buy a good TT. Which you can do with a few clicks of your mouse button and less than £999. And then a road trip in your car to go and collect it.

Finding such a person is the trick.....*good*

Maybe someone who has been involved in hi-fi retailing for more than twenty five years and has done consultancy work for serious turntable manufacturers.

Someone who has listened to hundreds of different players, performed thousands of comparitive demonstrations and installed and set up many, many players in peoples homes.

Now where on earth would you find someone with experience like that.....*unknw*