Upgrade amplifier or speakers?

[FennerMachine]

New thread as its a new(ish) question. I've ask similar before but still not sure.

Current kit Denon AVR 3801, Quad 21L2 speakers.

With a budget of around £2000.00 would you upgrade the amplifier or speakers? Or maybe both?

Current contenders:

Amps: Icon Audio ST40 MkIIIm or Yamaha A-S2100

Speakers: Quad 25L, Tannoy something, Spendor Classic or Harbeth, Klipsch Heresy

 

[DocG]

What sources do you use?

What's the room like?

I take it you only want/need stereo?

What's your music diet like? What aspects of the presentation are important for you (punchy bass, coherent sound, speed, detail, ...)?

Is your mind set on 'classic' box speakers with cones and domes? Or could a panel speaker like a Magnepan 1.7i be an option? (if so: what wattage can your AVR deliver into 4 Ohm? Can it be bridged?)

 

[FennerMachine]

CD's via Cambridge Audio 751BD

Current room about 15x12 feet

I have used surround in the past but could go stereo only

Music – classical, pop, rock, electronic dance – eclectic

Tried Quad panel speakers, but not sure if I could live with them or their ilk

No rating into 4Ohms

 

[DocG]

Tried Quad panel speakers, but not sure if I could live with them or their ilk

Is that their sound? or their looks? or their positioning pickiness?

 

[FennerMachine]

Their sound was great for most music but not quite right with some. Difficult to explain. I was using old Quad amps, 44 pre and 303 power.

Positioning would be difficult in current room. I'm moving soon, but wherever I move to will hopefully be similar size or a bit bigger.

I could try panel speakers again but want something close to £2000.00 and new, no second hand. The Magnepan 1.7 are closer to £3000.00. The 0.7 would be closer to budget.

 

[matt49]

I'm going to demo the Maggie 0.7 and 1.7 on Weds. Expect a report.

Matt

 

[pyrrhon]

Obviously the amp! Forget about yamaha and get an hifi brand with great resale value.

Edit : naim for exemple.

 

[DocG]

I could try panel speakers again but want something close to £2000.00 and new, no second hand. The Magnepan 1.7 are closer to £3000.00. The 0.7 would be closer to budget.

Oops, as the 1.7i is $2000 a pair in the US, and with the strong GBP and all, I supposed it woud be 2000-ish in the UK too. My bad.

Haven't heard a .7 yet. It's said to be substantially better than the MG12 it replaces. Well, I hope it is. I was not that impressed when I heard the MG12 a couple of years ago (but the 1.7: wow!).

Now Maggies eat a lot of watts with their flat 4 Ohm impedance -- hence my question about your AVR.

 

[FennerMachine]

Whatever I buy will have to be a keeper - resale value is meaningless to me.

 

[Al ears]

That's a heck of a change in amps. Personally I wouldn't change your speakers if they suit your current room set-up (you know them), I'd change the amp. Otherwise you'd have too many variables to contend with.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Get the most powerful or sophisticated amp you can.

Hegel 160 - 150wpc, a smidgen over 2grand could do the job.

Only heard it at the Bristol show on LS50's (imo a very overrated speaker.)
But those figures.....I'd buy one.... :-D

Or audition those on your shortlist.

You've not done a post ref what configurations you've tried with your Denon

Biwired or used the digital outputs/inputs optical/coax between amp and player. (use single legs off your interconnects) the Denons have good DACs in them.

Have you experimented with tone controls or are you sticking stubbornly with 'source direct'.....

Even turning off unused channels and so on.

It's a flexible piece of kit If your willing to dig.

Like your Missions before your current speakers will improve with better amplification and can stand a few upgrades.

Amp.

 

[FennerMachine]

I've tried limited playing around with the Denon.

Most changes make minor differences, but none particularly better.

Analogue from 751BD vs coaxial and using Denon DAC makes little if any difference.

I've changed the treble to -2bd, reducing a bit of harshness, but not improved the sound massively.

 

[TrevC]

If you want a big difference change the speakers.

 

[bluedroog]

I've recently bought a pair of Event Opals and am very happy with them, highly recommended.

 

[pyrrhon]

Whatever I buy will have to be a keeper - resale value is meaningless to me.

Everyone said that once but once you try high end you cant stop trust me

 

[Electro]

I would change both amp and speakers and my recommendation would be .

Abrahamsen V20 integrated amp at £749 with a pair of KEF R500's at £1500 .

This pairing should give you a real taste of high end HiFi at a very reasonable price imo *smile* .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Abrahamsen-V20-Intergrated-Amplifier-/291398469147?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43d8b3c61b

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/kef-r500-r-series

If you could stretch your budget just a little further then the Abrahamsen V20 UP upgraded version would definitely be worth the extra imo .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Abrahamsen-V20-UP-Intergrated-Amplifier/291397618880?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D72ca87235cc64cb7b083a75b43f8d650%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D291398469147&rt=nc

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I've tried limited playing around with the Denon.

Most changes make minor differences, but none particularly better.

Analogue from 751BD vs coaxial and using Denon DAC makes little if any difference.

I've changed the treble to -2bd, reducing a bit of harshness, but not improved the sound massively.

What is the problem?

Is it too harsh, muffled, too bassy.....

Do you want more separation, better bass control .

What is it, 2yrs now?

I've followed your journey with interest. The only conclusion I can draw is you need to go upmarket with the front end of your kit - source and amp.

If your cdplayer/source is budget you need to start there.

If your amp is getting a sub standard signal no spend on amp/speakers will improve it.

If some stuff sounds good then maybe there is hope. Even though not all material is of a high standard.

Have you considered the source?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Just re-read - you're using a bluR player as source.

Not wanting to get into the merits of BD v CDplayers or if they all sound the same but...

Why not take your player with you to your nearest dealer and compare it to some CDplayers.

See how it compares.

 

[rainsoothe]

I'd say do both - plenty of great stuff to be found with that budget, even if you don't wanna consider second hand.. Take a look at Hegel H80 (this one has a DAC too!)/Naim Nait 5si/Roksan Kandy K2 + Martin Logan Motion 20/ATC SCM11/B&W 683S2 speakers. If you need streaming capabilities, look at Naim Unitiqute 2 + Kef LS50 + Atacama Moseco 6 stands (if you don't have any). For secondhand or ex-dem, Naim Nait XS2 + Neat Motive SX2 or Sonus Faber Toy Towers make for a very powerful combo imo, and should be really adequate for your space.

 

[Vladimir]

These and you got change for a proper power amp.

Imagine these in front of you...

 

[lindsayt]

Good call on the JBL's Vladimir.

 

[FennerMachine]

Good question Thompsonuxb.

Problems & improvements wanted:

A bit fatiguing at higher volumes

Improve bass – quantity and quality

More realism/naturalness from real instruments such as with classical and live recordings

It's actually been over 10 years! I've demoed and/or owned quite a few systems over the past 20 plus years.

The 751BD is supposed to be a good CD player. I have owned Cyrus CD7Q and Quad CD67. Definite differences between all 3, each had their strengths and weaknesses.

I demoed my 751BD & Quad 21L2's with Icon Audio ST40 and that was the most enjoyable system I've demoed overall. Other systems better that combo in some areas but not overall. But I doubt myself after reading, not just on this forum, that all well designed amplifiers sound essentially the same (with caveats of course).

 

[Thompsonuxb]

If you enjoyed that amp and have it in your pocket, get it.

At the very least see if you can get a home demo.

Ignore the 'it all sounds the same....' mob.

Doubt they have anything more exotic than an Amstrad anyway.....

 

[DocG]

Fatiguing at higher volumes, not enough grip on the bass... Sounds like the amp is struggling to get the job properly done. Maybe you would be better off with a good stereo amp driving your Quads after all.

Remember: 'all amps sound the same in their comfort zone'. Smells like your amp is outside that zone from time to time...

Then again, if you paired the Denon with more efficient, amp-friendlier speakers, that might work well too.

Well, that didn't help you any further, did it? *nea*

 

[Vladimir]

Fatiguing at higher volumes, not enough grip on the bass... Sounds like the amp is struggling to get the job properly done. Maybe you would be better off with a good stereo amp driving your Quads after all.

Remember: 'all amps sound the same in their comfort zone'. Smells like your amp is outside that zone from time to time...

Then again, if you paired the Denon with more efficient, amp-friendlier speakers, that might work well too.

Well, that didn't help you any further, did it? *nea*

Surely not. Must be the Blueray player. *wink*