TV Reviews.

[bigboss]

Sorry i can not see where i am being offensive or have an agenda. I am only offering what i think is reasonable advice.

In similar way, I cannot see where I am being defensive. I'm only offering my thoughts. 🙂

 

[tele1962]

THX calibration is far from simple and is as comprehensive as ISF.

How much does THX calibration cost as compared to ISF calibration?

Usually the amount depends on your system but i would imagine the two will be comparable.

 

[tele1962]

Just wondering, would reviews not be more credible if the reviewer was ISF or THX trained and able to provide some proper statistics as to Black Levels, Colour Accuracy, Settings used ETC.I feel this would be a massive benefit to the magazine and potential purchasers of TV's alike.

Some of our reviewers are ISF trained. We don't provide lots of data as all our research tells us our readers want simple, easy-to-read reviews and not be inundated with lots of technical charts. I understand some people may want that, but the majority of our readers don't.

Hi Andy, would it not be possible to add calibration data in a box at the end of a review. Also a mention of the TV settings used in the review would be a bonus.

 

[Dave_]

THX calibration is far from simple and is as comprehensive as ISF.

How much does THX calibration cost as compared to ISF calibration?

Do WHF do THX calibration, or merely just use a THX optimizer disc? I seem to recall it being mentioned it was the later.

 

[BenLaw]

Just wondering, would reviews not be more credible if the reviewer was ISF or THX trained and able to provide some proper statistics as to Black Levels, Colour Accuracy, Settings used ETC.I feel this would be a massive benefit to the magazine and potential purchasers of TV's alike.

Some of our reviewers are ISF trained. We don't provide lots of data as all our research tells us our readers want simple, easy-to-read reviews and not be inundated with lots of technical charts. I understand some people may want that, but the majority of our readers don't.

Hi Andy, would it not be possible to add calibration data in a box at the end of a review. Also a mention of the TV settings used in the review would be a bonus.

Obviously it's possible but it's pretty clear they're not going to and their reasons for that, isn't it?

 

[Andy Clough]

Just wondering, would reviews not be more credible if the reviewer was ISF or THX trained and able to provide some proper statistics as to Black Levels, Colour Accuracy, Settings used ETC.I feel this would be a massive benefit to the magazine and potential purchasers of TV's alike.

Some of our reviewers are ISF trained. We don't provide lots of data as all our research tells us our readers want simple, easy-to-read reviews and not be inundated with lots of technical charts. I understand some people may want that, but the majority of our readers don't.

Hi Andy, would it not be possible to add calibration data in a box at the end of a review. Also a mention of the TV settings used in the review would be a bonus.

The reason we don't mention the TV settings in the review is that they may well need to be different depending on the room/position/circumstances in which the TV is being viewed. There's no 'one-size-fits-all' setting for every TV we review. For instance, if you mainly watch daytime TV in a room with a lot of windows and daylight, you might want the picture to be a bit brighter.

If, on the other hand, you mainly watch films at night with the curtains drawn you may be more concerned about deep blacks. All our TVs are tested in a special room with no windows, grey walls and blackout paint on the ceiling so there's no light leaking in and we can easily detect any flaws in the image - but we realise not everyone will live in a room like that!

 

[tele1962]

Quite right, but we are interested in results you gained from the TV you are reviewing and how they were achieved so as when buying or comparing an informed decision can be made.

Also some settings of course will be universal to a particular range of tv no matter where the TV is being viewed ie Colour, Colour Temp, Sharpness, Digital Enhancements, Mode (THX, Cinema, Pro etc)

 

[Andy Clough]

Lack of information to people on the street has led to the downfall of the best (up to now) flat panel technologies out there.

We extolled the virtues of plasma screens for years, especially for film buffs and home cinema enthusiasts, and I remember when LCD flatscreens first came out we were less than impressed with their picture quality and motion handling compared with CRT sets. Of course things improved over the years, but we (and many of our readers) were big fans back in the day of the Pioneer Kuro sets.

But the reality is LCD/LED flatscreen sales now massively outstrip those of plasma, and most manufacturers have dropped plasma from their ranges. That's just the reality of the market, I don't think it was really down to lack of information (from us or anyone else). You might care to read my blog on the demise of plasma:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/shed-a-tear-for-plasmas-demise

 

[tele1962]

Just wondering, would reviews not be more credible if the reviewer was ISF or THX trained and able to provide some proper statistics as to Black Levels, Colour Accuracy, Settings used ETC.I feel this would be a massive benefit to the magazine and potential purchasers of TV's alike.

Some of our reviewers are ISF trained. We don't provide lots of data as all our research tells us our readers want simple, easy-to-read reviews and not be inundated with lots of technical charts. I understand some people may want that, but the majority of our readers don't.

Hi Andy, would it not be possible to add calibration data in a box at the end of a review. Also a mention of the TV settings used in the review would be a bonus.

Obviously it's possible but it's pretty clear they're not going to and their reasons for that, isn't it?

To be honest i was asking Andy his views on this question and making some suggestions of my own that might be a compromise and i am sure it would benifit everyone.

 

[BenLaw]

Just wondering, would reviews not be more credible if the reviewer was ISF or THX trained and able to provide some proper statistics as to Black Levels, Colour Accuracy, Settings used ETC.I feel this would be a massive benefit to the magazine and potential purchasers of TV's alike.

Some of our reviewers are ISF trained. We don't provide lots of data as all our research tells us our readers want simple, easy-to-read reviews and not be inundated with lots of technical charts. I understand some people may want that, but the majority of our readers don't.

Hi Andy, would it not be possible to add calibration data in a box at the end of a review. Also a mention of the TV settings used in the review would be a bonus.

Obviously it's possible but it's pretty clear they're not going to and their reasons for that, isn't it?

To be honest i was asking Andy his views on this question and making some suggestions of my own that might be a compromise and i am sure it would benifit everyone.

Maybe not as comprehensive or technichal but someting like this:
Benchmark Test ResultsDead pixelsNoneScreen uniformityVery good for an edge LED TVOverscanning on HDMI0% if [Screen Format] “Full” & [Display Area] “Full Pixel“Blacker than blackPassedCalibrated black level (black screen)LEDs dim down to 0.011 cd/m2Calibrated black level (ANSI checkerboard)0.042 cd/m2Black level retentionAuto-dimming with full black screenPrimary chromaticityUndersaturated red and blue primaryScalingVery goodVideo mode deinterlacingDecentFilm mode deinterlacingPassed 3:2 cadence over 480iViewing angleGood for VA LCD panelMotion resolution600 to 1080 with [Motionflow] engaged; 300, offDigital noise reductionOptional; effective when engagedSharpnessDefeatable edge enhancementLuma/Chroma bandwidth (2D Blu-ray)Full luma; chroma horizontally blurred except in [Game] & [Graphics] modes1080p/24 capabilityNo judder in 2D or 3D with [Motionflow] “Off“Input lag (high-speed camera)8ms compared to lag-free CRT in [Game] modeLeo Bodnar input lag tester22ms in [Game] modeFull 4:4:4 reproduction (PC)Yes, in [Game] and [Graphics] modes

And do you think 95% (plus) of the readership will be turned on or turned off by text like 'Primary chromaticity - Undersaturated red and blue primary' and 'Leo Bodnar input lag tester - 22ms in [Game] mode'?

 

[BenLaw]

Lack of information to people on the street has led to the downfall of the best (up to now) flat panel technologies out there.

We extolled the virtues of plasma screens for years, especially for film buffs and home cinema enthusiasts, and I remember when LCD flatscreens first came out we were less than impressed with their picture quality and motion handling compared with CRT sets. Of course things improved over the years, but we (and many of our readers) were big fans back in the day of the Pioneer Kuro sets.

But the reality is LCD/LED flatscreen sales now massively outstrip those of plasma, and most manufacturers have dropped plasma from their ranges. That's just the reality of the market, I don't think it was really down to lack of information (from us or anyone else). You might care to read my blog on the demise of plasma:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/shed-a-tear-for-plasmas-demise

No Andy, the demise of plasma in the world market is all down to you and failing to mention the Leo Bodnar input lag tester.

 

[Andy Clough]

Quite right, but we are interested in results you gained from the TV you are reviewing and how they were achieved so as when buying or comparing an informed decision can be made.

Also some settings of course will be universal to a particular range of tv no matter where the TV is being viewed ie Colour, Colour Temp, Sharpness, Digital Enhancements, Mode (THX, Cinema, Pro etc)

Certainly some readers (and I appreciate you're one of them) would like this kind of information. But as I and others have repeatedly said, the vast majority of our readers prefer us to keep things simple. If there are particular settings on any TV that help or hinder the picture quality, we do of course mention those in the reviews. For example, we often find that digital enhancement and motion control modes are best left off.

 

[tele1962]

Perhaps my response became a little muddled and i was not inferring it was down to your magazine but a lack of information in general as almost anywhere that TV's were on show Plasma was relegated to a corner of a showroom and the sales staff were giving out some of the most ridiculous information for years regarding Plasma. Thus driving a nail in the coffin of still the best TV tech out there.

 

[tele1962]

Quite right, but we are interested in results you gained from the TV you are reviewing and how they were achieved so as when buying or comparing an informed decision can be made.

Also some settings of course will be universal to a particular range of tv no matter where the TV is being viewed ie Colour, Colour Temp, Sharpness, Digital Enhancements, Mode (THX, Cinema, Pro etc)

Certainly some readers (and I appreciate you're one of them) would like this kind of information. But as I and others have repeatedly said, the vast majority of our readers prefer us to keep things simple. If there are particular settings on any TV that help or hinder the picture quality, we do of course mention those in the reviews. For example, we often find that digital enhancement and motion control modes are best left off.

Maybe mentioning simple things like using Cinema or THX instead of Dynamic or Normal might help things a little. As i am pretty sure many will recieve these TV's and leave them in settings straight from the Box. Also maybe mentioning Discs like Spears & Munsil and the Disney Wow BR's (not the THX optimiser discs) will help many readers better understand the correct basic set up of there TV.

 

[Andy Clough]

Well we do frequently suggest that people should use the THX Optimizer disc, rather than sticking to the out-of-the-box settings, when they buy a new TV:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/get-more-from-your-tv-with-our-free-thx-optimizer-glasses

And we also recommend other calibration discs such as the Digital Video Essentials one if they want to take things a step further. Plus we have a couple of 'How To' videos on the subject:

http://www.whathifi.com/video/get-the-best-from-your-tv

http://www.whathifi.com/video/how-to-make-games-look-good-on-your-tv

 

[mjs]

Ask a person in the street if they know what that DetlaE chart means. They will think the words Luminance and Gamma are made up. So yes, I think it would scare people off. I personaly like HDTVtest, but think it would fail as a magazine.

I can't find my copy of a Brief History of Time, but there was a bit in the forward, words to the effect of "For every formula you include, you will cut your readership in half". So Hawkins only included one formula in the whole book.

Well as a qualified colour physicist of over 30 years I certainly know what Delta E is, and it is a mathematical fudge. There is as yet no 100% accurate colour difference formula. All these calculations are based on mathematical derivations for so called ideal observers, of which you, I, and anybody else fail to be. What pleases Joe`s colour perception will not satisfy Sam`s ( Note males suffer colour deficiency far more than females- who just carry the faulty gene). Factors as mundane as stress, alcohol levels, general well being, sex and age, and of course ambient lighting, all affect our colour perceptions. So measuring a screen to standarised mathematical settings does not actually mean anything in the real world, except of course they are all standardised. The ultimate customer is your own eye and I am afraid that is unique and not standardised in any way.

 

[tele1962]

Calibration achieves an agreed standard using set parimiters agreed by very highly qualified experts and studios. Our eyes as you say are a poor judge of colour that is why these standards are in place and measurable.

Your saying Delta E errors are fudge is not coming from someone who truly recogonises or understands the basics of TV calibration as these are scientifly measurable using equipment specifly desgnied for the purpose, so i realy do not know where your expert training comes from but it is not in the field of TV calibration. Or the methods used to achieve it.

Here is a great little giude that explains some of the ways we achieve calibratations:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

 

[bigboss]

Your saying Delta E errors are fudge is not coming from someone who truly recogonises or understands the basics of TV calibration as these are scientifly measurable using equipment specifly desgnied for the purpose, so i realy do not know where your expert training comes from but it is not in the field of TV calibration. Or the methods used to achieve it.

Hmmmm....I dunno. According to wikipedia entry:

"Different studies have proposed different ΔE values that have a JND (just noticeable difference). Unempirically, a value of '1.0' is often mentioned, but in a recent study, Mahy et al. (1994) assessed a JND of 2.3 ΔE. However, perceptual non-uniformities in the underlying CIELAB color space prevent this and have led to the CIE's refining their definition over the years, leading to the superior (as recommended by the CIE) 1994 and 2000 formulas.[3]These non-uniformities are important because the human eye is more sensitive to certain colors than others. A good metric should take this into account in order for the notion of a "just noticeable difference" to have meaning. Otherwise, a certain ΔE that may be insignificant between two colors that the eye is insensitive to may be conspicuous in another part of the spectrum."

Now, if this is a measurable constant, why would different studies come up with different formulas?

 

[tele1962]

DE is only a small part of the overall calibration process but a DE of below 3 is acknowledged as being in perceptible to the human eye and that is where we aim so as colour inaccuracies are below that threshold.

 

[tele1962]

Well we do frequently suggest that people should use the THX Optimizer disc, rather than sticking to the out-of-the-box settings, when they buy a new TV:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/get-more-from-your-tv-with-our-free-thx-optimizer-glasses

And we also recommend other calibration discs such as the Digital Video Essentials one if they want to take things a step further. Plus we have a couple of 'How To' videos on the subject:

http://www.whathifi.com/video/get-the-best-from-your-tv

http://www.whathifi.com/video/how-to-make-games-look-good-on-your-tv

Andy THX optimiser is poor at best and was designed for US varients of TV panels, i have never seen it work correctly yet. A far better option is this one it's free to download and has most the patterns you will ever need:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

 

[tele1962]

Lack of information to people on the street has led to the downfall of the best (up to now) flat panel technologies out there.

We extolled the virtues of plasma screens for years, especially for film buffs and home cinema enthusiasts, and I remember when LCD flatscreens first came out we were less than impressed with their picture quality and motion handling compared with CRT sets. Of course things improved over the years, but we (and many of our readers) were big fans back in the day of the Pioneer Kuro sets.

But the reality is LCD/LED flatscreen sales now massively outstrip those of plasma, and most manufacturers have dropped plasma from their ranges. That's just the reality of the market, I don't think it was really down to lack of information (from us or anyone else). You might care to read my blog on the demise of plasma:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/shed-a-tear-for-plasmas-demise

No Andy, the demise of plasma in the world market is all down to you and failing to mention the Leo Bodnar input lag tester.

The Leo Bodnar test can make or break a tv for serious Gamers so yes it is vitaly important to them as it gives input lag timing.

 

[tele1962]

Looking at everthing Andy has said it looks like WTV has come a long way from what i remembered and i intend to start puchasing on a regular basis again. :clap:

 

[tele1962]

Picked my first copy up in a few years, very impressed well done. 🙂

Only criticism would be to lose the HDMI past reviews section.