Turntables - New versus "Vintage"

[agaskew]

Are new turntables, especially at the budget end, really built much more cheaply than their 70s-80s-90s equivalents? I keep reading that a low end 80s turntable would only be matched in quality by a modern one costing several hundred pounds. Is this accurate or just the usual "they don;t make 'em like they used to"?

 

[nopiano]

It’s a bit of both I suspect. There were outstanding designs that sold by the thousands - the Pioneer PL12D was one, and later the Dual CS505 series.

My Pioneer was £39 iirc, and the Duals were £99 ish. But for £250 or so today you’d get similar sound quality, which if I could be bothered to look up the inflation comparison is probably similar pricing.

However, there was plenty of junk made in the 1970s and ‘80s too, bearing in mind LP was the highest-Fi you could buy.

 

[matthewpianist]

It's not accurate at all, and also dependent on the particular manufacturers involved.

Every decade has seen some pretty ropey turntables being made and that was the the case even with some big names in the 80s.

You can buy a decent turntable from Audio-Technica, Project, Dual, Rega or TEAC (for example) for budget level money and it will serve you well. We're not talking about something you'd partner with a Rega Elex IV of course, but with a price comparable amplifier (Marantz PM6007 for example), there would be endless hours of enjoyable listening ahead.

 

[matthewpianist]

It’s a bit of both I suspect. There were outstanding designs that sold by the thousands - the Pioneer PL12D was one, and later the Dual CS505 series.

My Pioneer was £39 iirc, and the Duals were £99 ish. But for £250 or so today you’d get similar sound quality, which if I could be bothered to look up the inflation comparison is probably similar pricing.

However, there was plenty of junk made in the 1970s and ‘80s too, bearing in mind LP was the highest-Fi you could buy.

The Pioneer and Dual were both great turntables for the money. I started out with a PL12D my Dad gave me for my 8th birthday, and I got to know huge amounts of music with it. A decent used example now can still fetch circa £200. I later had a Dual CS503-2 which was also very good, but I preferred the PL12D overall.

 

[Al ears]

The Pioneer and Dual were both great turntables for the money. I started out with a PL12D my Dad gave me for my 8th birthday, and I got to know huge amounts of music with it. A decent used example now can still fetch circa £200. I later had a Dual CS503-2 which was also very good, but I preferred the PL12D overall.

Quite so and it is also worth considering exactly what they would cost if inflated to today's prices. They were not exactly cheap all things considered.

 

[Gray]

I used to own a 'no compromise' mobile disco console (hardly mobile as it weighed a ton).

It used a couple of the PL-112D model Pioneer decks (not sure how they differed to the PL-12D).
Real quality decks though.
The thing was too big to keep....but I wish I still had it.

I'm about to try out an old Japanese Trio KD-1033B, which looks like it might give some current budget decks a run for their money.

 

[matthewpianist]

The PL112D didn't have the sprung set-up of the PL12D, so much more suitable for the disco set-up.

 

[Gray]

The PL112D didn't have the sprung set-up of the PL12D, so much more suitable for the disco set-up.

That makes a lot of sense.
Thanks Matt 👍

 

[agaskew]

I wonder how good a cartridge I could put in my trusty old Sansui SR-222 Mk V (which has a high mass tonearm anyway so low compliance needed, seem to be harder to find) ...

...or how much to spend on a replacement instead.

 

[Gray]

I wonder how good a cartridge I could put in my trusty old Sansui SR-222 Mk V

An Audio Technica VM-95E would be worth a try for under £45.
It's a best seller for good reasons.

 

[plastic penguin]

An Audio Technica VM-95E would be worth a try for under £45.
It's a best seller for good reasons.

Could also add Goldring E series. Like Audio Technica, Goldring go back decades.

 

[plastic penguin]

Quite so and it is also worth considering exactly what they would cost if inflated to today's prices. They were not exactly cheap all things considered.

Yep, my old Garrard SP25 MKV was about £70 in 1979, and in todays prices that equates to about £450. It was nicely built too with chunky matt.

 

[agaskew]

An Audio Technica VM-95E would be worth a try for under £45.
It's a best seller for good reasons.

I have this on it now - its OK but IGD is a bit bad.

 

[Gray]

I have this on it now - its OK but IGD is a bit bad.

Well, you know what they say cures that:
The ML stylus 🤑

 

[Al ears]

Yep, my old Garrard SP25 MKV was about £70 in 1979, and in todays prices that equates to about £450. It was nicely built too with chunky matt.

My point exactly. Turntables where never really cheap, yo can buy cheaper today.
Are they better? Probably not.
The first I had was a Leak /Lenco 75 and cannot recall what that deck cost but was probably more, equivalent, than a cheap deck at today's prices

 

[hifi]

I used to own a 'no compromise' mobile disco console (hardly mobile as it weighed a ton).

It used a couple of the PL-112D model Pioneer decks (not sure how they differed to the PL-12D).
Real quality decks though.
The thing was too big to keep....but I wish I still had it.

I'm about to try out an old Japanese Trio KD-1033B, which looks like it might give some current budget decks a run for their money.

I used to DJ with someting similar ! it was huge with the mixer built in then u had the speakers and amp and dont forget the weight of the records !🙈

 

[Gray]

...dont forget the weight of the records !🙈

Can never forget them 🤬
Now they can turn up with a thumbnail sized SD card in their shirt pocket - the entire music library - and they don't even know they're carrying it 🙄

 

[plastic penguin]

My point exactly. Turntables where never really cheap, yo can buy cheaper today.
Are they better? Probably not.
The first I had was a Leak /Lenco 75 and cannot recall what that deck cost but was probably more, equivalent, than a cheap deck at today's prices

Not sure if it was better build quality but doubt if the sound was as good as my old Pro-ject Xpression 1, even though I used various cartridges. In those days I was a cartridge swapper, from Shure M55E, Goldring G800, Ortofon....

 

[Friesiansam]

Are new turntables, especially at the budget end, really built much more cheaply than their 70s-80s-90s equivalents? I keep reading that a low end 80s turntable would only be matched in quality by a modern one costing several hundred pounds. Is this accurate or just the usual "they don;t make 'em like they used to"?

I have not owned a turntable for a long time now but, I bought a basic Technics direct drive one, back in the mid 80s. It worked well enough, especially once I upgraded to an Audio Technica cartridge but, there was no doubt it was built down to a price, not up to a standard.

 

[Al ears]

I have not owned a turntable for a long time now but, I bought a basic Technics direct drive one, back in the mid 80s. It worked well enough, especially once I upgraded to an Audio Technica cartridge but, there was no doubt it was built down to a price, not up to a standard.

in the day turntables were very much mass produced and that's the difference with today's decks in a certain sense. Although built to a price point today's decks are produced in smaller numbers because they aren't selling in the numbers they used to when vinyl was your main or only source and quality control methods have improved making today's cheap decks better than those of old, in general.
That said, they are produced almost as an afterthought for users to add another type of source to their setups. This is not necessarily a good thing as they are sold as 'packages ' often with barely adequate cartridges that would not have happened with decks of old.

 

[plastic penguin]

That said, they are produced almost as an afterthought for users to add another type of source to their setups. This is not necessarily a good thing as they are sold as 'packages ' often with barely adequate cartridges that would not have happened with decks of old.

Also, unlike 40 years ago the market is saturated with so many different formats, most of which don't need physical storage. There are only a handful of turntable specialists, such as Pro-ject, Audio Technica and to a lesser extent Rega. I know they produce a shed load of amps, CDPs, Dacs, speakers.... to me I'll always associate Rega with turntables.

 

[matthewpianist]

I've acquired a very nice example of the PL12D which has been serviced and has a new Ortofon 3600 cartridge on it (a pretty basic cart - essentially the same thing as the Rega Carbon). First impressions are that it comfortably matches up to affordable modern turntables, and is nicer to use than some of them. I'm keeping it in my system for a while (possibly permanently) to test it out over a decent period, so I'll report back.

 

[record_spot]

I've just been bumping my gums on the main HiFi forum about the current issue and the state of what passes for an acceptable range of turntables in which to invest your (sub £500) cash - and the north of £500 wasn't much better.

So I land on this thread and you know, what you can buy today compared to what you could buy when I was getting into the hobby in the late 70s and into the 80s doesn't begin to compare. Rotel RP850, Sansui SR222 up to the model V version, Technics SL-D2 (and variants at the budget end), Dual CS-505 - the AR EB101 anybody?! - and the rest. If you had a bit more cash to spend, you might get a Thorens TD160 or 166. If you had a bit less, a BSR McDonald. If you were loaded, a Linn or an Ariston RD11.

I don't see anything available today outwith Project or Rega that's remotely close to those decks. Mass produced, low cost, and not much worthy of 5 stars, but yet, lo and behold, they get 5 stars. And no, I haven't listened to them, but then again, there's nothing in most of them that would make me want to listen to them.

 

[Oxfordian]

I've just been bumping my gums on the main HiFi forum about the current issue and the state of what passes for an acceptable range of turntables in which to invest your (sub £500) cash - and the north of £500 wasn't much better.

So I land on this thread and you know, what you can buy today compared to what you could buy when I was getting into the hobby in the late 70s and into the 80s doesn't begin to compare. Rotel RP850, Sansui SR222 up to the model V version, Technics SL-D2 (and variants at the budget end), Dual CS-505 - the AR EB101 anybody?! - and the rest. If you had a bit more cash to spend, you might get a Thorens TD160 or 166. If you had a bit less, a BSR McDonald. If you were loaded, a Linn or an Ariston RD11.

I don't see anything available today outwith Project or Rega that's remotely close to those decks. Mass produced, low cost, and not much worthy of 5 stars, but yet, lo and behold, they get 5 stars. And no, I haven't listened to them, but then again, there's nothing in most of them that would make me want to listen to them.

I'm not sure that you can compare what we used for our listening pleasure from 40+ years ago to what is around today, the world is very different now to what it was then. Equally I am unsure how you can say that a product isn't worthy of a 5 star rating if you haven't listened too it or have no interest in it.

Is there the same choice of TT's today that we had back in the 70's or 80's, no of course there isn't and I'm not overly convinced that even the most hardened vinyl enthusiast would expect there to be, vinyl isn't the dominant source that it was all those years ago but it remains popular and is gaining new followers.

There is a good choice of turntable for people taking their first steps in the vinyl world, prices starting at £200 upwards, I would guess that these TT's are no worse than some of my purchases back in the day, in fact they are probably better due to the improvements in manufacturing processes.

 

[record_spot]

I'm not sure that you can compare what we used for our listening pleasure from 40+ years ago to what is around today, the world is very different now to what it was then. Equally I am unsure how you can say that a product isn't worthy of a 5 star rating if you haven't listened too it or have no interest in it.

Is there the same choice of TT's today that we had back in the 70's or 80's, no of course there isn't and I'm not overly convinced that even the most hardened vinyl enthusiast would expect there to be, vinyl isn't the dominant source that it was all those years ago but it remains popular and is gaining new followers.

There is a good choice of turntable for people taking their first steps in the vinyl world, prices starting at £200 upwards, I would guess that these TT's are no worse than some of my purchases back in the day, in fact they are probably better due to the improvements in manufacturing processes.

Goodness, mansplaining is alive and well still in 2023...

Can you compare? Sure you can. You absolutely can.

Have I listened to these decks? No.

Can I comment? Yes.

"Improvements in manufacturing processes"?

You mean, cost cutting using the best plastic money can buy? OK, got it.

The aforesaid Rotel, Sansui, AR, Technics, lay waste to these new plastic fantastics. Wise up.