Not happy with my new stereo

jeroma

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Hello to everybody out there,
it´s my first post here after reading and learning a lot about hifi. Since i got my "new" setup i became a frustrated hifi-enthusiast, before i was just a music-lover because i was happy and "married" with my old setup that i got for about more than 20 years. I had a Harman Kardon HK 6100 amp, Heybrook HB 1 speakers, a Marantz CDP from the 90´s. I gave away all this devices and bought the Rotel RA 05, RCD 06 and B&W CM5 3,5 year before. My turntable Thorens TD 146 MK V is still in use or better to say not in use anymore because i stopped listening to music at all recently. Also TV and BRP is connected and the sound is just ok then when i don´t listen too loud. It´s a quite new Sony Bravia. Not to forget: i usually listened to music with a MacMini, before MacBook and earlier with a PowerMac, connected in simple old-fashioned way.(a DAC- what for? :)) The sound on my old system was always very very good, each source, especially vinyl was a kind of celebration.I will describe my old system for making some things clear that i am missing now. I could listen very silent and also very loud, when i had guests we could talk even with decent volume of music running beside, the sound never ever was annoying. When i was singing with the music- l really like to do that :) - my voice was melting with the sound. Now it´s impossible to listen to music besides, even on very low volume it is annoying because it´s a "fight" between our voices and the music from the speakers. My old system was filling the living-room as good as the rest of the flat, i even don´t had to take care about the sweet-spot. One thing more i must tell you: i will never forget the first dvd on my old system. A friend came to me with his laptop and the movie "Amelie" because at this time i had no player and just a simple small tv. Watching the movie was quite nice but the sound was stunning. I heard slapping doors in the neighborhood on my speakers but thought it was somewhere in my flat. Another movie that really impressed my with the sound: "Walk the Line"- this is not my music but the movie touched me and i loved it- but only on my old system. Long time before a friend asked me for taking my stereo to an opening party in her restaurant. Even there my system was a "star", the people liked it very much and i played the music loud… Now more details about what is annoying and distressing me and i would like to ask what you think the problem is. Listening at low volumes is useless because there is not much to listen to- on higher volumes the sound becomes hard and harsh, especially the higher deep tones and especially the midtones are really hurting my ears. it´s not detailed and just too much in the foreground but: it depends on and i don´t know where the "rule" is- of course it depends on the recording and the system gives me maybe much more information about the quality but even very good recordings can sound so poor and thin- others are suddenly very ok, so not all of my music does annoy me but i can say at least 80% is impossible to listen to and that is not enough. I am a big fan of David Bowie, he is my only icon in rock-music, and his music is a waste of time on this system. I like so much his voice of course and the drummer and bassplayer on his famous 70´s albums. It´s a big fail, no punch, no timing and his voice sounds terrible. I also like a lot other music, from jazz to classics- actually almost the whole range. Electro is mostly ok, this typical dynamic bass of modern produced music is not a problem for the speakers and they can take it better than my old speakers but they doesn´t give me pleasure, they are playing for themselves but not for me. Sometimes the speakers can impress me but they don´t do for giving me pleasure.I am listening to them but not to the music.Something strange that let me think it´s maybe the amp that is not right.. when i watch tv or a movie and there is music in the background but not very silent i sometimes wake up and snap my fingers but when i search for the original if i got it on dvd or as a file it´s disappointing me as usual.. another curious thing: in summer as it was around 30°C in my flat the allover sound was a bit better.. am i strange or crazy? :) please tell me and tell my what would you do at my place- thinking about changing the amp at first or shall i blame the speakers(as i always thought)?The room acoustics are quite "normal"(22m2) i would say and i got decent stands, custom-made, heavy, sand-filled and a bit expensive. I also tried everything in positioning, spikes yes or no. The speakers are in front of a massive wall in distance of 40cm.So i have to do something finally, want to listen to music as in the past. Thanks in advance for help and advices and greetings from Berlin.
 

jeroma

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Sorry for this block of words, i wrote in another program and copied the text, so the structure is lost here... sorry again!

edit: found how to edit but it doesn´t help....
 

MakkaPakka

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Sounds like you may have bright speakers. Are you able to borrow back the old ones and test?

I once had a pair of bright speakers - at first there was a wow factor as they were so much more 'alive' and detailed than the ones they replaced but I found I struggled to listen to a whole album due to fatigue.

I have no personal experience with B&W but they have been referred to as bright.
 

jeroma

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no, i wouldn´t say the speakers are too bright, for me they could give more brilliance of brightness. they don´t sound "open" enough to me and using the tone on the amp does not help too. i must confess on my old sytem i used the brighness a bit on low volumes, i mean the loudness. Btw the Rotel really does not do much change in using the loudness comparing to my old HK6100... i am listening without usually on the Rotel because it does not help. And yes, would be very nice if i could listen to my old speakers again but hey are gone forever...unfortunately.
 

mikeparker59

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Pity you can't get your Heybrooks back, I keep thinking of re-newing my HB2's but think I'll hang on to them!

There is a thread here suggesting alternatives to the HB1 http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/new-speakers-as-a-new-house-treat
 

jeroma

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yes, a pity and thanks for the link! keep yours as long as possible. I really regret that i gave them away although they were pretty ugly meanwhile...
 

schietgs

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I don't haven experience with the Rotel, but in my search to replace my floorstanders (b&w 603s3) i had a hard time in finding a detailed but warm bassy speaker...the b&w standmounters were either to big for the wife or were way to analytical. Before hearing the R300s the best option was using the subwoofer not only for lfe purposes. Since I believe that the speakers are responsible for 75% of the hifi experience and you have a good amp I suggest to go and have a listen in a decent store. Take you're amp and try to compare other speakers. I'd be surprised that this wouldnt help you in refinding you're love for music.Good luck!
 

jeroma

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Thanks, and yes, i was sure that the amp should be good enough because my old one was also not too powerful and pricey at the time.. I was already in the shop where i bought my new set up. i also bought my old one there, so i trusted their advices and i spent actually almost the double comparing to old times and my income. But i learned that the money is not the leading factor. In the shop the guy let me listen first to the CM5 on a Naim amp and surprisingly the sound there was worse than at home. I guess it was the room acoustic there.. The sound was even more covered and less open- maybe because of carpets allover. My room at home is different but i also have a thick carpet on wooden floor, light curtains, so quite usual i would say.

I believe that only a home-demo will be meaningful.
 

steve_1979

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MakkaPakka said:
Sounds like you may have bright speakers. Are you able to borrow back the old ones and test?

I once had a pair of bright speakers - at first there was a wow factor as they were so much more 'alive' and detailed than the ones they replaced but I found I struggled to listen to a whole album due to fatigue.

I have no personal experience with B&W but they have been referred to as bright.

A friend of mine has had a similar experience with some B&W 685's. They sounded a bit bright and boomy giving them that 'wow' factor which sound great for short periods but they became fatiguing when listening for long periods. He's upgraded to some Yamaha active monitors now which he's very happy with.
 

steve_1979

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schietgs said:
Since I believe that the speakers are responsible for 75% of the hifi experience and you have a good amp I suggest to go and have a listen in a decent store. Take you're amp and try to compare other speakers. I'd be surprised that this wouldnt help you in refinding you're love for music.Good luck!

+1
Good advice.
 

Leeps

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Beyond the speakers themselves, there are a couple of things you might want to think about:

I know many German houses have tiled floors. Is this the case in your apartment? If there are a lot of hard surfaces in your room, it could create a more boomy sound. Ways to help this could go from simple rugs and cushions all the way to bass traps and acoustic panels, depending on how seriously you want to take it.

The reason this is important is that it can have a massive affect on the perceived quality and balance of the sound and if your room acoustics are significantly different to the rooms used by the hifi dealers you visit for demonstrations, it could render any tests useless.

The other factor to consider is bass ports and their interaction with the walls. My main left and right channel speakers (Monitor Audio Radius R270HD) have rear ports near the base of the speaker. As they are quite petite speakers for floorstanders, I assumed the ports wouldn't be much of an issue as I had previously had rear-ported stand-mounted speakers in the same place, but I was wrong. The rear ports reacted quite badly at first created far too much bass boom.

So I moved them about 40cm into the room. It was better but still too much bass overwhelming the other frequencies. So I filled the rear ports (with socks, apparently a well-established inexpensive hifi rememdying device) and it tightened the sound up beautifully.

The reason I mention this, is that if you have ports already reacting badly with a rear wall (and in my experience, this can happen even if the speakers are some distance away) AND you have tiled floors / window blinds and few soft furnishings, then you may have inadvertently created the audio equivalent of placing a mirror in front of you and behind you: a never-ending boominess echo messing up your sound.

Of course, none of these factors may apply in your case, but I thought it might be worth a try.

Finally, do not under-estimate the different an amplifier's sound makes to a system. Yes the speakers are the ultimate voice, but I know from experience using the same speakers with several different amps and sources, how it would have been difficult to known the same speakers were being used.

Hope some of the above may help.
 

jeroma

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Thanks for this detailed answer!

yes, i was considering the room acoustics and was experimenting a lot already. At first i had too much boom in some(!) recordings. I guessed it was the combination of spikes on wooden floor. I live in an old house, ceiling about 3mt. So i bought some so called shock absorber from Oehlbach and it was much better then instead of spikes under the stands. My room is not overfilled indeed but i got a sofa, a chair, two shelfs with books, a very heavy carpet in front of the speakers, another one and curtains. So i would say it´s a pretty normal and "modern" situation and so called hifi-speakers should be able to manage this. I also tried to use the bungs but the bass boom is not the problem anymore. Mostly there is not enough bass and it´s not very detailed.

I am annoyed of the midtones, i mean voices, guitars- (if there are some in the music i listen to). The worst are all horns and if there is a lot happening at the same time it´s impossible to listen at higher volumes. Sometimes even very transparent music with just a voice and a piano or so the sound is sharp and edgy... unbearable.
 

BigH

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I have recently changed my system from a 20 old one and I know waht you mean by room filling sound at low volume, I had Mission 780 SEs, I have found that many new speakers are not like this, maybe its the Kevlar in the woofer as in some B&W and Kefs, I did not find them easy to drive. I tried the CM1s not that impressed, too boomy for me. I would say its your speakers that are the main problem. Only speakers that had room filling sound were the Epos Epic 5s (floorstanders), however these were too large for my room and bass was not controlled enough, you could hear the cabinet vibrations with double bass. After hearing many systems I tried AVI and they for me were clearly better, clarity and resolution, even at low volumes, so that what I bought. You may want to try some sensitive floorstanders?

Re room acoustics, have you tried the clapping test, clap your hands and see how it sounds.
 

MajorFubar

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Why am I the first person to suggest that if you really liked the sound your Heybrook HB-1s, go and hunt-down a pair in good condition and be happy again. Then sell your current speakers and consider it a learning-experience that newer does not always mean better.

I hope you rediscover your HiFi nirvana.
 

MajorFubar

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I forgot to say, don't waste your time and money changing your amp and source (CD player, turntable, whatever). Changing them will make some difference to the sound obviously, but if you hate the sound of your HiFi so much you can barely listen to it, then changing your amp and source is never ever going to fix it.

Good luck!
 

tonik

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Hi Jeroma. I readed your question and I as well am looking at this problem but in a different situation. I'm new and first hi fi was a Panasonic stereo system. looked like a Techno system hehe, and it was good but it was more for dynamic bass and for similar music. So after 5 years I bought a 2.1 speakers from Creative for my computer and it was a reborn. The sound when watching movies is great, and when listening to music or HD concerts is a blessing. Sound is full, like you are on the that concert. Thats where I started planing on buying a AV reciver and speakers. So after creative speakers for my computer. I found at home a AKAI AA-1050 but didn't have requaired speakers. Had first speakers that give a mild sound didn't have what it takes to be good as Creative or even better. So after that I took from dads Hi fi System speakers (Hi fi was: Philips MCM 700) that are a lot better that old ones. But, the sound is like more harsh, has more bass, designed for dynamic music. In every music bass gets more in the way. So I found a few recivers that have a lot of option in connecting and other stuff. (Yamaha, Pioneer...) But I'm not smart what to do when it comes to speakers. I'm looking at 3.1 or 5.1 speakers. But I do not want to spend money and see that I missed the speakers. I'm not going to buy these next thing tomorrow. Because I'm new in this and have some experience, at first I'm looking to learn about speakers and AVR which are suitable and what to watch when buying. ;)
 

jeroma

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ok and thanks to all for latest replies. i will go for new speakers then. fortunately i have some choices here. as i was in the shop where i bought i was a bit disappointed of the demo. well, there was not too much time and i auditioned just a few speakers- i must say the differences between them were not very big.. but really, the room was totally damped, so not a typical situation, at least comparing to what i am used to.

i told the guy that i am also interested in PMC-speakers, he said `oh forget it, they are not made for hifi-listening` well... they don´t sell PMC :)

what i want to say, i am ready to spend more money as i wanted if i get what i need. i am also flirting with Focal but also not available in this shop, they are really focused on B&W and Kef mainly.
 

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