turntable advice

[andreih8017]

Hi,

I need some advice on which turntable to buy:

My choices are: - Dual CS 505-3 Audiophile Concept

- Kenwood KD 2055

- Technics SL-23A

My current cartridge is an Ortofon 2M Blue, mounted on a shitty Numark TT1650 direct drive.

The setup is Marantz PM6010 OSE Ki signature + Wharfedale Diamond 10.4; (the speaker cable is supra 2.5, without by-wiring, and the interconnects are some Hama with gold platted inputs)

And one more question: what is good bass ? the one that you can "feel" or the one that is present, but not in a "in your face" way; my setup produces a bass from the second category and i really like it. On the other hand, a bunch of other hi-fi systems i listened to had a more boomy bass; i wonder if there is a problem with my speakers, or that's the way they are supposed to sound. I also must say that i don't have treble or bass controls on my amplifier.

Is by-wiring an option for improving the sound quality, or it's a marketing scam ?

Thanks in advance for your valuable advice

 

[Captain Duff]

Your cartridge is way better than your current TT. However the 3 choices you have given are still lower end models in the scheme of things so that inbalance would remain, is the limited choice due to budge or other reasons. If it is budget then what have you actually got to spend?

Out of those 3 assuming all were in good nick I would probably go Kenwood, Dual, Technics. The Dual is a great TT, but the Blue cartridge may not suit the lightweight tonearm.

Your amp/speakers are both good. Try experimenting with speaker positioning for different results, you will get more 'boom' close to a rear wall if that's what you want.

Your cables are also fine assuming your connections are good (tight fit for interconnects, no oxydisation at the end of your speaker wires - if so just cut back to fresh cable). Personally I wouldn't bother with bi-wire, particularly as your amp doesn't have bi-wire terminals so you would need to split your cable. What I would do, however, is replace the supplied metal links between the terminals on your speakers with speaker cable 'jumpers' (you can make yourself easily from small amounts of your existing cable, although consider the best way to terminate all the ends - bananas, spades etc - so everything fits cleanly).

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Boomy bass may sound good at first but it becomes tiring quickly and masks other frequencies removing detail, image etc. Solid base is less but so much more. Speaker poaitioning is first port of call and then room treatment. For little money great gains can be made.

 

[andreih8017]

The budget is around 250 EUR (used equipment). The problem is that i didn't find something else in my hometown that was interesting, and i would like to hear the pickup before buying it.

There is a new adition to the list, a Thorens TD 170 EV with integrated preamp. How about this one ?

Of course, there is always the possiblity of making a little extra effort and buy a new TT, like Rega RP1 or Project Debut 3, but i really don't know how would it be better...

Thanx,

 

[Captain Duff]

Hmm, well the Thorens TD-170 is actually a re-badged Dual CS-435 under the skin, and the CS-435 was far below the CS-503 in quality so I would avoid it, and besides you don't need a seperate phono stage as at that level it is likely to be far worse than the one built into your Marantz amp.

I guess you could give the Dual 503 a go, see what cartridge it comes with is like (it may be fine, originally they were often fitted with the perfectly good Ortofon OM-10) and if your Blue cartridge isn't a good match for the arm you could sell that on seperately (particularly as it is worth more than your current TT!).

I know it is always nice to be able to see/hear before you buy, but could you not also consider the likes of ebay, that's where I got my current Thorens from and it was/is perfect (and only cost a bargain £33 including postage - although not including the tonearm & cartridge that I got seperately).

 

[andreih8017]

Thanx for the advice

Regarding the match between the ultralight tonearm of the dual cs 503 and my ortofon 2m blue, i think it would be ok, mainly because the original ortofon cartridge provided woth the Dual had a compliance of 25 mN, while the Ortofon 2M Blue has a compliance of 20mN; additionally, the 2M blue is heavier than the original cartridge, so i think it's about the same.

How about the idea of buying a new TT, something like Rega RP1 or Project Debut 3 ?

As a last resort, i would give ebay a chance, especially if i find a bargain.

Thanx,

 

[Captain Duff]

Well a head to head I would rather have the Dual 503 than either the RP-1 or Pro-ject myself, although it is a matter of taste. You would also need to be very careful about positioning with those two as they need a proper hifi shelf or spiked/isolated platform to work at their best. The classic suspended design of the 503 makes it far less fussy so far as positioning goes (I used to own one myself and in the early days before I could afford a proper hifi support rack I happily had it on a normal un-isolated sideboard without any problems at all).

As you have found, the value for money definately lays in buying second hand, and a good example of a Dual 503 (or better still a Thorens suspended design like a 150/160/166) should normally outperform new models from Rega and Pro-Ject at the same price level every time.

 

[andreih8017]

I also found a Thorens TD 145 - http://www.okazii.ro/sisteme-audio/pickup-audio/thorens-td-145-customized-swiss--a117988763 and a turntable named ERA - http://www.okazii.ro/sisteme-audio/amplificator-audio/pick-up-high-end-turntable-rar-vintage-impecabil-a55783199 . Do you think it would be worth the effort for these 2, as they are out of my price range ?

this is the Dual: http://www.okazii.ro/sisteme-audio/pickup-audio/pick-up-dual-cs-505-3-audiophile-konzept-doza-ortofon-pickup-impecabil-curea-nou-nouta-ac-nou-la-doza--a116841497

 

[Al ears]

Hi,

Your latest selection holds the turntable I would pick.

Save your money and buy the French ERA (a Mark 6 version by the look of it), especially if it comes with the tonearm as shown (SME 3009).

If this turntable has been well maintained, and by the look of the ancilliaries used with it (Icon Audio phono preamp), I would hazard a guess and say it has. It will leave your other listed turntables standing!

I'm pretty sure your Ortofon would fit just nicely too.

 

[andreih8017]

i would buy the ERA in a heratbeat if it wasn't so expensive...it is double the price of the Dual, is it really worth it ? If so, maybe i could skip a meal or two for the next month and buy it :cheer:

Later edit: the seller accepted the price of 400 EUR for the ERA, without the included cartridge. How do you feel about the price, assuming it is well maintained ?

 

[Captain Duff]

I don't know enough about the ERA to comment, but I think they were around in the mid-1970s and were always a small French brand. That being the case you would need to take into account that the price is possibly as much to do with rarity value for collectors as it is for sound. You would also need to consider how easy (or expensive) it would be to get replacement spare parts for that model.

That said, the Thorens you highlighted is also expensive, in that case because it has clearly been upgraded with a better plinth etc. However, it retains its original arm and these were seen by many as a weak(ish) point in terms of sound quality for Thorens decks at the time.

I would suggest therefore that unless you are in a big hurry you take your time with this - there are plenty of Thorens decks around and eventually one will come up with its original plinth that will be a lot cheaper than that one. The other advantage of a classic Thorens is that replacement parts (motors, platters, belts etc) for the most popular models are in good supply and not too expensive so you can be sure it will have a long working life.

 

[Al ears]

i would buy the ERA in a heratbeat if it wasn't so expensive...it is double the price of the Dual, is it really worth it ? If so, maybe i could skip a meal or two for the next month and buy it :cheer:

Later edit: the seller accepted the price of 400 EUR for the ERA, without the included cartridge. How do you feel about the price, assuming it is well maintained ?

Although it is vintage it was very highly rated in it's day. The price is very good, I feel, and there is a reason it is twice the price of the Dual.

I believe that drive belts for it are easy enough to come by and it should be repairable by any competent engineeer, should it ever need it.

I was not aware it was listed with a cartridge but it is probably better you fit your own anyway. At least you know how it has been used.

 

[andreih8017]

ok then, ERA it is

Thanx guys, you've been really helpful

 

[andreih8017]

ok...i saw the ERA today

it looks great, but when playing, the platter has a bit of wobble (i can easily see the arm moving up and down). That can't be good, right ?

 

[Al ears]

Aha! Presumably this was with an LP on the turntable. How much of an up and down? Any chance the LP was warped?

See if it does it with all LP's.

If it does then don't buy it.

 

[andreih8017]

i tried it with 3 or 4 LPs, and it's the same. Even without an LP, i could see the platter wobble. I estimate the vertical movement at about 3-4 mm.

I also saw the Dual. The spinning was perfectly flat, with absolutely no vertical movement. I also find the cue and arm system to be very smooth comparing to the ERA. Is it a good idea to stick to the Dual ?

Thanx,

 

[RobinKidderminster]

3mm vertical ain't right. Can't do that one I recon. Shame. Makes one wonder how that could happen. My old spinner is 100% flat.

 

[Captain Duff]

i tried it with 3 or 4 LPs, and it's the same. Even without an LP, i could see the platter wobble. I estimate the vertical movement at about 3-4 mm.

I also saw the Dual. The spinning was perfectly flat, with absolutely no vertical movement. I also find the cue and arm system to be very smooth comparing to the ERA. Is it a good idea to stick to the Dual ?

Thanx,

I think I remember reading elsewhere that both worn bearings and motors could be a issue in terms of reliability/repair on the ERA's, compounded by a lack of spares (although you probably could use parts from different manufacturers, but then that would destroy the value of having an 'original').

Yes, the Dual should be fine and at most should need a new belt and bearing oil change depending on when they were last done (both cheap and easy to do yourself).

 

[andreih8017]

I bought the Dual, and installed my cartridge. At a very close look, there seems to be a little bit of wobble in the platter, the movement of the arm being about 1 mm up and down.

I also found a horizontal movement of the arm (like the LP was not perfectly round, maybe they actually aren't).

Is there something i can do about it ? The interesting thing is that i don't remember seeing the up and down wobble when i first saw it, and i looked really really close.

And one more thing...is it ok if i set the antiskate at the same number as the downforce ? i don't have a test LP, so if you know any other way of setting it up, please share

Thanx,

 

[Al ears]

I would hazard a guess and say that the movements you mention are within normal limits for a deck of this type and age.

I don't know about Dual decks but I found with the Rega deck I used to own that it was best to set the anti-skate to less than the tracking force (mine ended up being about half) although I am sure that sonically you will hear little difference.

Enjoy!

 

[Captain Duff]

If you lift up the platter and then let it and the spindle fall back into the hole does it go down very slowly (minutes), or is it quick (seconds), is it silent, or can you hear the metal parts touching? If it is quick, or if it makes a noise, then it almost certainly needs some new oil, and a new thick oil coating that holds the spindle snugly should in turn reduce 'wobble'.

There are lots of different TT oil mixtures out there to use (some with genuine snake oil judging by the price!). However, a fully synthetic motor oil would do the trick (something like 5w 30) and if your car uses that anyway and you have a litre top up bottle to hand you can decant a few drops for use on your TT and it will cost pennies. Just remember to clean any of the old oil out first with a cotton bud/Q-tip.

 

[andreih8017]

i'm guessing you mean that when i put the platter on and the spindle makes its way into the hole of the platter, this should happen slowly because of the oil...

well, that's not the case; there is absolutely no trace of any kind of oil in that area. I guess i have to put some

 

[Al ears]

No. He means remove the platter completely then grab hold of the spindle and pull on it.

Most turntables allow you to completely remove the spindle in this way as this is the way to get to the bearing.

I am not sure if this is the case with a Dual though, I've never owned one, so read the manual.

Do NOT put any oil where I think you are going to put it.

 

[Captain Duff]

If you do some web seraches you should find copies of the Dual instruction manual. However, specifically for the platter and its removal you need to do it via the plastic ring a few centimetres wide around the spindle. Press it down and move it (while keeping the platter itself still) to the right until you feel it loosens/releases. You should now be able to pull up the platter which will also allow you to check/replace the belt (you can also take the belt off and see how freely the platter spins - if it doesn't then again this indicates a need for new oil.

To refit the platter, push down the central ring and move it to the left (in fact if this has become loose it could explain your platter 'wobble' by itself.

While you are doing all this you could also check the status of the 3 transport screws in the top of the plinth. For playing the TT these should not be raised (if they are the plinth has been tightened to transport it), but also check that while they are in place properly for playing that the top plinth is 'springy'.

If you want to remove the top plinth plate (as well as the platter) it is possible to raise these 3 screws slightly, then pull each of the screw heads away from the platter, and this will release the top plinth completely to allow you to inspect the deck inside fully (useful for a motor inspection), although be careful how much you raise the plinth (do NOT pull it away quickly or hard!) as you will break the cable wires to the tonearm.

 

[andreih8017]

i have the user manual, but it doesn't contain any instructions for the platter removal.

I did removed the platter like you said, and put it on a mirror to see if it is warped, but it looks perfectly flat.

Underneath the platter, i found a black cylinder with the belt on; this also spins without any wobble. i also checked the spindle form above to see if it has any lateral movement, but it seems ok. What i don't know is how to "open" the black cylinder to see if there is any oil related issue.

After i put the platter back and secured it with the plastic ring, there seems to be a bit less wobble in the platter, but still noticeable.