Tidal in trouble

[drummerman]

Probably nothing new but anyway ...

https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/13/tidal-jay-z-financial-trouble/

 

[insider9]

I understand that Spotify also made losses this year even bigger than Tidal.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Pretty much all the streaming platforms are making losses. They have for some time. It’s the huge development costs against relatively limited demand with the size of the music market about half what it was in the heyday of music in the mid 90s. Harder to make a buck. That’s why we need the mass market to forget cd (and to a smaller extent vinyl) and start buying streamers on mass. When cd goes everybody will need buy a streamer and they will be signing up to tidal etc in their droves, bringing cost down of streaming services, and everybody wins through more choice plus the size of the market increases meaning more musicians are in the industry.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realise that if people who have CD players and don’t stream only spend about £20/$20 on cds a year on average, on current stats, it’s not going to support the music industry as much as having them have a £5 spotify subscription at £60 per year. With all that choice and extra features of streaming like playlists, access to music, and recommendations etc. it would clearly do better than cd which is failing like a dead donkey.

 

[Gray]

Pretty much all the streaming platforms are making losses. They have for some time. It’s the huge development costs against relatively limited demand with the size of the music market about half what it was in the heyday of music in the mid 90s. Harder to make a buck. That’s why we need the mass market to forget cd (and to a smaller extent vinyl) and start buying streamers on mass. When cd goes everybody will need buy a streamer and they will be signing up to tidal etc in their droves, bringing cost down of streaming services, and everybody wins through more choice plus the size of the market increases meaning more musicians are in the industry.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realise that if people who have CD players and don’t stream only spend about £20/$20 on cds a year on average, on current stats, it’s not going to support the music industry as much as having them have a £5 spotify subscription at £60 per year. With all that choice and extra features of streaming like playlists, access to music, and recommendations etc. it would clearly do better than cd which is failing like a dead donkey.

With decent CDs available for around a fiver, as they often are now, not everyone will be joining the droves rushing to streaming sites.

 

[lpv]

if all they buy is old music than you have a point but if someone like to explore new music than fiver for a cd doesn’t apply..

 

[drummerman]

Many cd's are much cheaper than a fiver and there are millions out there. - With download prices often still quite high buying music on CD will probably last a very long time still to come.

That and uncertainties about longevity of streaming services will further help the 'legacy' format.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Many cd's are much cheaper than a fiver and there are millions out there. - With download prices often still quite high buying music on CD will probably last a very long time still to come.

That and uncertainties about longevity of streaming services will further help the 'legacy' format.

but it won’t be available for new releases and even older stuff will get bought up and remain in collections, plus it could do the opposite of increasing cd prices with supply being low, often with amazon used books for example that are no longer published, that can sell for £25plus when originally they were £9.99. What we need to do is adopt to the new. Streaming is increasing steadily and cd is declining at current rate and new cd production could be obsolete in 4 years.

 

[chris_bates1974]

The one thing that streaming can never take care of, is the fact that people like to have ownership of something. Cds come in a case, records have that fantastic sleeve. All you get with a download (if you pay more than for just streaming) is a file. Working for a software company that sells products for tens of thousands of pounds, I can tell you that there is a huge difficulty for most people in seeing the value of a product that looks like a usb key - never mind one that is just the file.

I love using Apple Music, but I also love owning things, so have actually found that over the last couple of years, I've been spending more on physical music - mainly records.

Of course, a massive issue is that many people these days don't listen to albums. I would say that in order to increase revenue for artists, the may wish to think about how better to market whole albums to (mainly) young people.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

well maybe the cost puts people off streaming I mean when your paying £10 a month for Spotify and iTunes which both cost the same then that’s £120 for what ever service you choose and then your got Tidal at £10-£20 a month or £240 a year for people who really take there music seriously .

how many people do you know who spend £240 as a worst example a year on buying CDs that are not into hifi like us lot just a casual listener to music ? Not many people spend there money the same way we are all different in what we like so it’s never going to be mass market in a million years .

so if a casual user buys a Cd the chances are they probably brought there mini hifi from Pc world or Argus for £50 -£100 max and not to bothered by quality of sound as long as it plays music .

so the remaining people that’s us are probably a small 10 percent that bother with streaming and buying CDs and expensive hifi equipment that’s the truth of the matter .

And I read that CDs and vinyl sales are on the increase which in my opinion is a good thing as it helps the Hifi industry more to carry on making hifi and I like to physically own my own collection of CDs which cost me nothing a month ones brought .

 

[lpv]

brits have no money left on buying cd’s or streaming subscribtions cause they all spend it on booze, take away and taxi to buy more booze

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

well maybe the cost puts people off streaming I mean when your paying £10 a month for Spotify and iTunes which both cost the same then that’s £120 for what ever service you choose and then your got Tidal at £10-£20 a month or £240 a year for people who really take there music seriously .

how many people do you know who spend £240 as a worst example a year on buying CDs that are not into hifi like us lot just a casual listener to music ? Not many people spend there money the same way we are all different in what we like so it’s never going to be mass market in a million years .

so if a casual user buys a Cd the chances are they probably brought there mini hifi from Pc world or Argus for £50 -£100 max and not to bothered by quality of sound as long as it plays music .

so the remaining people that’s us are probably a small 10 percent that bother with streaming and buying CDs and expensive hifi equipment that’s the truth of the matter .

And I read that CDs and vinyl sales are on the increase which in my opinion is a good thing as it helps the Hifi industry more to carry on making hifi and I like to physically own my own collection of CDs which cost me nothing a month ones brought .

thats the point that these firms wouldn’t be in dire straits if they were more mass market, and unit cost could come down. You might pay £7 per month for tidal hi Fi or £4 for Spotify which if everyone was doing it could save us a lot of money, audiophile or not.

More people buy music who are not audiophiles than us lot, considerably more. We are a speck in the ocean of purchasing in the music industry as a whole. It will be mass market if the new purchase cd format doesn’t exist and it’s the better option to get music at varying qualities, freely available.

Cd sales and vinyl are not on an increase. Vinyl is a tiny proportion of the total market. Cd is going down on a year by year trend and if this yearly trend exists at it is cd will be extinct as a new purchase format in 4 years.

I don’t get this ownership thing. The mass market doesn’t either as more people stream than buy new CDs by some margin. The commodity is music no matter how it’s packaged and it’s very price elastic. So people don’t buy 24 CDs at £240 per year for tidal hi Fi when they can listen to thousands of CDs at the same price. CDs on the rise don’t help the music industry if they are a minor proportion of total music sales, just like vinyl. It’s basically a cottage industry and who too wants vinyl for £20 when that gets you months of streaming.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

brits have no money left on buying cd’s or streaming subscribtions cause they all spend it on booze, take away and taxi to buy more booze

inflation is higher then wages so people have to make hard choice where there money goes

 

[drummerman]

brits have no money left on buying cd’s or streaming subscribtions cause they all spend it on booze, take away and taxi to buy more booze

inflation is higher then wages so people have to make hard choice where there money goes

 

[Blacksabbath25]

For me I have to physically own a Cd collection or a film collection as I hate being at the Marcy of greedy companies like iTunes or any of the others I did try Tidal and Spotify I liked Tidal better but couldn’t bring myself to pay £20 a month ones the free trial had finished which was for the best quality service they do but if they did the best possible quality for £10 a month I would of stuck with Tidal .

 

[insider9]

How much do you spend when you go to a cinema/concert/bowling etc. ? How much do you spend on a night out/take away/booze etc.?

End of a day we're here as we're enthusiasts. Listening to music is a hobby. How many hobbies that you know that could offer you this much fun for £20 a month?

Lots of listening for a lower price than 2 newly released albums. Not a bad deal in my opinion.

 

[Macspur]

Think we've had this discussion before guys... a friend of mine owns a music store and sales of vinyl haven't been this high for many a year and CD's still very popular.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Think we've had this discussion before guys... a friend of mine owns a music store and sales of vinyl haven't been this high for many a year and CD's still very popular.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

yes the shops do nicely out of it as the prices are higher than streaming so the margins are better. But the point to the original first post about why the services are doing so bad, is they need better market saturation to offer a better cheaper service. That only comes from people adopting new streaming services. And cd and vinyl is much more expensive for the availability of music you get. They may have good cd sales in the shops but they are always declining.

 

[knaithrover]

I pay £20 a month for Tidal which is great value imo and sounds miles better than Spotty. The intention was for Tidal to be my main source, it hasn't worked out that way as I still spend wads on cd's and vinyl..... I like all 3 formats and support them all

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

For me I have to physically own a Cd collection or a film collection as I hate being at the Marcy of greedy companies like iTunes or any of the others I did try Tidal and Spotify I liked Tidal better but couldn’t bring myself to pay £20 a month ones the free trial had finished which was for the best quality service they do but if they did the best possible quality for £10 a month I would of stuck with Tidal .

But they aren’t gready as you pay more for cd for less value and less music and the more people invest in streaming services and these emerging technologies the more music there will be, better artists, and cheaper will music be for everyone.

I think once people see the value.... say most people bought 3 CDs a year at £30, but new sales cd goes and now they can get Spotify at £60 a year (once it becomes more mass market and a bit cheaper) and all those artists and choice, they will easily see the value streaming has to offer and double the price for their music is worth it. It will be like a new mass market revolution just like cd had that effect over vinyl in the 80s. In effect the size of the music market is doubled from £30to £60. More artists, more chance of better music. More surviving streaming services in profit feeding to artists.

If we just have sentimentality and inflexibility for what will be obsolete formats, these artists won’t get paid much and we all suffer if what we have Hi Fi for is to get great music and varied music. That’s the way I look at it anyway.

 

[Macspur]

Think we've had this discussion before guys... a friend of mine owns a music store and sales of vinyl haven't been this high for many a year and CD's still very popular.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

yes the shops do nicely out of it as the prices are higher than streaming so the margins are better. But the point to the original first post about why the services are doing so bad, is they need better market saturation to offer a better cheaper service. That only comes from people adopting new streaming services. And cd and vinyl is much more expensive for the availability of music you get. They may have good cd sales in the shops but they are always declining.

Well he's at the coalface and doesn't seem concerned about this so called decline in physical sales.

I wouldn't be without Spotify, but I mainly use it as a tool for finding great new music to buy on CD.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

There is a decline in cd if you look at music industry stats. I doubt he would be concerned if people spend £10 on a cd and often multiple CDs, some good margins to be had. But it doesn’t mean cd will keep surviving. Then cost of production dictates if cd is viable and economies of scale. If these are not there and sales reach a certain level in total (not just the independent record shops affairs) cd will not be made. My main town brighton lost its hmv and now only has two indepndent record and cd shops. This tells the story that the mass market just don’t buy CDs or vinyl, and they dictate the market, not us lot.

 

[Macspur]

Like I said before,we've already had this debate.!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Well I am a bit sad because I do not go out drinking or clubbing because as soon as my daughter was born me and the wife spend our life and time with our daughter as my daughter has a disability so those days of going out have gone .

so my luxury is my hifi / home cinema / music for my free time which is a luxury in its self and I am happy with that

I’ve always owned physical formats CDs , tapes , MDs , vinyl most of my life I just do not get the same satisfaction from a streaming site like I do with a Cd I do stream music of my iTunes account with albums I’ve brought but my main love is cds still

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Like I said before,we've already had this debate.!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

I’m not so sure as the debate here to answer the first post, is why the streaming services are not doing so well which is interlinked with the success or not of CDs, which maybe is taken in isolation - debates about preferred formats go on..... I think the reason why streaming is not doing so well comes from the fractured market, and the need for investibility in the services format. My point, which I don’t think I said but hinted at, is that once a format like cd goes (as with vhs and tape etc), is it needs something to replace it. And if replacing it requires a change in technology to the mass market in buying a streamer, that requires investibility in the streaming service to go with it to get the music, for music is only a commodity not necessarily a physical format. But we’ve been here before in changes in tech many times.

 

[lpv]

music lovers shouldnt think twice and pay £1 a day for qobuz sublime and stream hi res.. cd quality is for pussies