Tidal in trouble

[QuestForThe13thNote]

music lovers shouldnt think twice and pay £1 a day for qobuz sublime and stream hi res.. cd quality is for pussies

it depends what system you play it on, particularly the amplification and speakers, as cd quality will sound better than higher resolution formats on some peoples systems on this forum against others streaming higher res. In fact lesser mp3s too.

at the moment these streaming firms just need to get streaming cheaper for the streaming generation and from more saturation, then we can get cheaper hi res and cd quality streaming too.

 

[gasolin]

Havn't read all the reply's but personally i buy more lps than cd's,what i do use most is tidal and youtube and i don't need a streamer, why would i?

wmp,tidal and vlc works fine also do my cdplayer and turntable, i just don't want to have 10-20 cds laying around my pc,cdplayer,amp turntable and having to change cd every 10-20-30 min the same with record,lps, with the prices of cd's i won't be buyng 2-4-5 cd's or records every month, but for the price tidal hifi costs i can listen to all the new and old mucis whithout having to change cd,reocord all the time with personally playlist's according to my taste

 

[johnnyboy1950]

Some general comments.

Some of you chaps spend more on your gear than most people spend on their car. Judging by the opinions on 320k files on this forum why are you bothering with the mainstream streamers? I'm old enough to regret selling my large vinyl collection but have recently bought a turntable and am enjoying the experience with a few new vinyl purchases. In terms of hours spent listening the biggest for me is listening to spotify from my phone through my van speakers while at work. At home I listen to spotify, vinyl and cds with what i think is a pretty decent system. I'm happy to have all these formats to use as and when the situation dictates. When friends come round we have vinyl sessions, then I'll compile a playlist of "guess the intro", fun that you cant really do with vinyl.

Also if most streaming services are running at a loss and artists are complaining that they are not getting enough royalties, where is the money going. There are 30 million premium subscibers on spotify, that's £3.6 billion a year. That's a very very very big server!

 

[Deleted member 108165]

As Mac has said, this has been debated on here before....

Who really gives a flying f**k about all this anyway? I like being old and I like physical formats, you can shove streaming services where the sun don't shine. And please Quest stop trying to tell us what we should all be spending our money on, you like streaming services... that's fine, I don't, and that's fine too.

Brilliant post by Johnnyboy, bravo sir, *good* £3.6 billion per annum just for Spotify, yeah they're really having a hard time aren't they! Kids these days don't like paying for music, it's only us codgers who buy music.

What's needed is for some of these streaming sites to fail so there's less competition and more subscribers then maybe we'll see a reduction in monthly charges, then and only then would I ever be interested... but you still wouldn't prise me away from physical formats.

 

[paulkebab]

any streaming services and can't see me paying for any in the near future. If I like something I buy it, once, not rent it every month. That's the advantage of hard copy, plus when the internet goes down for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me. Streaming is fine it's just not for me. What is also possible is people are recording streams, so they could amass thousands of 'virtual CD's' for 12 months membership of a service, and i can't think of a method of monitoring that possibillity.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I've found so much new music that I haven't and couldn't have heard before with Spotify....it has opened a door for me and I think my monthly subscription is a piddling amount for the vast library that is available to us users.it's actually saved me a few quid...I used to not get to listen to a lot of the albums I was interested in before I used Spotify...now I can hear a album a few times before I decide whether I want to buy or not...this has saved me from buying a few duffers that I would have normally bought blindly....yes I stream and still buy cd's...I also like owning the physical format....just because you stream doesn't mean you just only have to stream....and what about hi res files....they ain't available on cd..so it's downloads or one of the available streaming sites for that medium if you want to dip your toe in.

 

[andyjm]

As Mac has said, this has been debated on here before....

Who really gives a flying f**k about all this anyway? I like being old and I like physical formats, you can shove streaming services where the sun don't shine. And please Quest stop trying to tell us what we should all be spending our money on, you like streaming services... that's fine, I don't, and that's fine too.

So, what about some facts? Figures for 2017 aren't out, but for 2016 the BPI said:

Total album units sold across all formats - 123million, up 1.5% on 2015 (they have a formula that takes all sales, CD, streaming, downloads, Vinyl and come up with this figure)

Total vinyl sales up 53% in comparison to 2015, at 3.2million (2.4% of total sales)

CD sales down 11% in comparison to 2015, at 49million (40% of total sales)

Conclusion, vinyl is doing well relative to the previous year, but is a tiny niche. CD sales continue a rapid decline, streaming/download sales continue to increase and are now the bulk of all music sales.

Got grown up kids? they are the a major market in themselves, and an indicator of the market's direction. None of mine have ever bought a CD. Physical media is in terminal decline.

 

[insider9]

As Mac has said, this has been debated on here before....

Who really gives a flying f**k about all this anyway? I like being old and I like physical formats, you can shove streaming services where the sun don't shine. And please Quest stop trying to tell us what we should all be spending our money on, you like streaming services... that's fine, I don't, and that's fine too.

So, what about some facts?  Figures for 2017 aren't out, but for 2016 the BPI said:

Total album units sold across all formats - 123million, up 1.5% on 2015 (they have a formula that takes all sales, CD, streaming, downloads, Vinyl and come up with this figure)

Total vinyl sales up 53% in comparison to 2015, at 3.2million (2.4% of total sales)

CD sales down 11% in comparison to 2015, at 49million (40% of total sales)

Conclusion, vinyl is doing well relative to the previous year, but is a tiny niche.  CD sales continue a rapid decline, streaming/download  sales continue to increase and are now the bulk of all music sales.

Got grown up kids? they are the a major market in themselves, and an indicator of the market's direction.  None of mine have ever bought a CD.  Physical media is in terminal decline.

 

And according to this data vinyl (2.4%) and CD (40%) don't even make up half of total sales. With streaming and downloads remaining (unless I'm missing something). That doesn't surprise me at all. Lots of young people buy tracks from iTunes.

I won't go as far as criticising anyone. Just listen to music and enjoy, who cares how My preference is streaming.

 

[Webern]

Most of my listening is classical music. Streaming represents a particular problem for the excellent smaller independent labels who finance their own new recordings. There's an interesting article from Gramophone magazine that puts the problem into stark relief. https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/making-waves-classical-music-and-the-rise-of-streaming

"Hyperion's Chief Executive Simon Perry puts it even more starkly. ‘If in the future there are no CD sales, no downloads and people only wish to stream, then how on earth does the label find the £1.5 million in cash to pay for the 75 recordings we make each year?’ he asks. ‘I don't have a pot of gold at the bottom of my garden. If we then start offering our recordings on streaming services for virtually no financial return, and the majority of people decide that that's how they wish to consume music in the future, then I can't see where the income will come from to pay for all the new recordings.’"

I'm a new entrant to Qobuz. I use it mainly to explore new recordings, and then I buy the very best ones on CD (I might choose a download if I can get my system hardware sorted out). I'm very aware that, if I stop buying CDs or downloads, companies like Hyperion may have a bleak future. In the classical world, it seems that the current streaming revenue model just doesn't cover the considerable outlay in making new recordings. Classical may be a small part of the 'market' but surely we don't want to see it wither away?

 

[andyjm]

Most of my listening is classical music. Streaming represents a particular problem for the excellent smaller independent labels who finance their own new recordings. There's an interesting article from Gramophone magazine that puts the problem into stark relief. https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/making-waves-classical-music-and-the-rise-of-streaming

"Hyperion's Chief Executive Simon Perry puts it even more starkly. ‘If in the future there are no CD sales, no downloads and people only wish to stream, then how on earth does the label find the £1.5 million in cash to pay for the 75 recordings we make each year?’ he asks. ‘I don't have a pot of gold at the bottom of my garden. If we then start offering our recordings on streaming services for virtually no financial return, and the majority of people decide that that's how they wish to consume music in the future, then I can't see where the income will come from to pay for all the new recordings.’"

I'm a new entrant to Qobuz. I use it mainly to explore new recordings, and then I buy the very best ones on CD (I might choose a download if I can get my system hardware sorted out). I'm very aware that, if I stop buying CDs or downloads, companies like Hyperion may have a bleak future. In the classical world, it seems that the current streaming revenue model just doesn't cover the considerable outlay in making new recordings. Classical may be a small part of the 'market' but surely we don't want to see it wither away?

I think it is important to differentiate streaming from downloads. In principle, the download economic model is the same as a CD purchase, without the faff of pressing the disc, distributing it and all the other friction and cost between you and the musician. It should allow a much more efficient way to access music, allow smaller musicians to be supported and for all except CD manufacturers and distributors is a win win for all concerned. A subscription based streaming system is very different, and frankly I can't see how that can support niche audiences effectively.

No reason why both models can't coexisit though.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I won't go as far as criticising anyone. Just listen to music and enjoy, who cares how My preference is streaming.

Don't take me the wrong way guys, I was just having one of those moments. It's just that I find a certain members posts about as palatable as cucumber skin... they have the same indigestible quality *biggrin*

 

[MajorFubar]

I enjoy streaming services, but I'm never going to be able to treat them seriously while artists/songs/albums can just disappear at a whim. When I buy a CD or an LP I've got it for life, not until someone decides to no longer allow it to be streamed in my territory. Frivolous example by way of example: last year I was able to stream the Now That's What I call Christmas album from iTunes. I tried to stream it from my phone at a childrens' Xmas party the other night, about a third of the tracks are now greyed out and are non-streamable. Sod it. Next year I'll just buy the CD for about £2 off eBay in June.

 

[jjbomber]

There are 30 million premium subscibers on spotify, that's £3.6 billion a year. That's a very very very big server!

Spotify is £8.33+VAT. That's a very, very big mistake in your figures.

Secondly, most people don't pay in pounds. Most pay far less in their own local currency.

 

[insider9]

Source billboard.com

Spotify losses more than doubled in 2016 to 556.7 million euros ($581.4 million) on revenues of 2.933 euros ($3.064 billion) from the 230.9 million ($241.6 million) in red ink tallied in the prior year, when sales, restated, were $1.93 billion ($2.014 billion), according to the streaming service's annual financial report.

While Spotify losses are mounting, it's important to note that Spotify's revenue increased by 52.1 percent. Within the red ink, the company's operating loss increased 47.8 percent to 349.4 million euros ($412.3) from the 236.3 million ($246.8 million) operating loss reported in the prior year.

 

[drummerman]

Source billboard.com

Spotify losses more than doubled in 2016 to 556.7 million euros ($581.4 million) on revenues of 2.933 euros ($3.064 billion) from the 230.9 million ($241.6 million) in red ink tallied in the prior year, when sales, restated, were $1.93 billion ($2.014 billion), according to the streaming service's annual financial report.

While Spotify losses are mounting, it's important to note that Spotify's revenue increased by 52.1 percent. Within the red ink, the company's operating loss increased 47.8 percent to 349.4 million euros ($412.3) from the 236.3 million ($246.8 million) operating loss reported in the prior year.

I am not an Accountant but if anyone would run their personal finances that way the bank would soon cut off any extra credit line ... ?

Revenue, whilst increasing, seemingly far outweighed by rising operating losses.

Something will have to give eventually me thinks.

Also kinda makes me question whether the long announced lossless streaming on Spotify will happen. Surely only the tiniest minority of nerds (us) would consider it. A drop in the ocean yet with likely more operating costs.

 

[insider9]

Not every business has to make money Many companies would love to own a well known brand in their portfolio that makes a loss but is growing. Alternative is make a profit and pay taxes. Cash is king but often it's cash flow and not just cash in ultimate terms.

 

[Macspur]

As Mac has said, this has been debated on here before....

Who really gives a flying f**k about all this anyway? I like being old and I like physical formats, you can shove streaming services where the sun don't shine. And please Quest stop trying to tell us what we should all be spending our money on, you like streaming services... that's fine, I don't, and that's fine too.

Brilliant post by Johnnyboy, bravo sir, *good* £3.6 billion per annum just for Spotify, yeah they're really having a hard time aren't they! Kids these days don't like paying for music, it's only us codgers who buy music.

What's needed is for some of these streaming sites to fail so there's less competition and more subscribers then maybe we'll see a reduction in monthly charges, then and only then would I ever be interested... but you still wouldn't prise me away from physical formats.

No need to apologise Doug... I'm all for streaming, but like I say it's just a brilliant tool for me to discover great new music... got an album on now via Spotify to see if I like enough to buy on CD.

I would never pay for a download.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[jjbomber]

Not every business has to make money Many companies would love to own a well known brand in their portfolio that makes a loss but is growing. Alternative is make a profit and pay taxes. Cash is king but often it's cash flow and not just cash in ultimate terms.

They.ve also done a 10% share capital swap with China's leading streaming company. I am surprised WhatHiFi didn't report that good news in amongst the 10 adverts for Apple!

 

[jjbomber]

brits have no money left on buying cd’s or streaming subscribtions cause they all spend it on booze, take away and taxi to buy more booze

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42350406

 

[andyjm]

I would never pay for a download.

Mac

..and that is different from paying for a CD how?

 

[Macspur]

I would never pay for a download.

Mac

..and that is different from paying for a CD how?

It's not the physical format and that's my preferred way of owning and listening to my music... I begrudge paying £7.99 for a file to sit on my PC and in my case, I can't even see the bloody thing lol!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I would never pay for a download.

Mac

..and that is different from paying for a CD how?

It's not the physical format and that's my preferred way of owning and listening to my music... I begrudge paying £7.99 for a file to sit on my PC and in my case, I can't even see the bloody thing lol!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

sorry Mac but these are sentimental reasons and reluctance for change from the old order. I’d rather pay £8 than £13 my music shop charge for a new cd. I think most would do as it’s very price elastic. Not least of which if it becomes £4 Because more people do it, it’s much cheaper than usual £10 of cd. Think of all those costs of production, delivery, wholesale etc in cd. You don’t have that with downloads.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

As Mac has said, this has been debated on here before....

Who really gives a flying f**k about all this anyway? I like being old and I like physical formats, you can shove streaming services where the sun don't shine. And please Quest stop trying to tell us what we should all be spending our money on, you like streaming services... that's fine, I don't, and that's fine too.

So, what about some facts? Figures for 2017 aren't out, but for 2016 the BPI said:

Total album units sold across all formats - 123million, up 1.5% on 2015 (they have a formula that takes all sales, CD, streaming, downloads, Vinyl and come up with this figure)

Total vinyl sales up 53% in comparison to 2015, at 3.2million (2.4% of total sales)

CD sales down 11% in comparison to 2015, at 49million (40% of total sales)

Conclusion, vinyl is doing well relative to the previous year, but is a tiny niche. CD sales continue a rapid decline, streaming/download sales continue to increase and are now the bulk of all music sales.

Got grown up kids? they are the a major market in themselves, and an indicator of the market's direction. None of mine have ever bought a CD. Physical media is in terminal decline.

im not telling anyone to spend their money on streaming but I’m saying it takes people to invest in the tech and services, to get overall benefit. If you are mature and listen to CDs only it won’t make any difference but I listen to new stuff all the time. The reason I do give a f—k is I want to see artists getting better paid. With a smaller total market thy won’t get as much as a bigger market. Clearly all the well known ones still do well but it’s all those new ones coming in that won’t have a reason to make music if it doesn’t pay as well and with the market is a fraction of the total size it once was. In the 90s cd was at its highest and most ever revenue in music market since cd came in, it’s also why I think music is some of the best we have had. Total revenues in 2015 are about half that in 2000in the us market.

But the thing that’s not mentioned here is that total revenue from downloads, both singles and albums, has outstripped cd sales since about 2012. Cd is declining all the time. But I think there will always be a market for ownership in downloads, it’s just you won’t get packaging, and this will come down to sentimental issues and needing to get with the change. One of the reasons why the market went up with cd was because of it being a new technology and investing in CD players which takes time, of all those still using tape, vinyl etc. It will take that of a newer source in downloads and streaming services, played by a pc or need streamer etc, to bring the market up to previous levels, and music is the winner in all of this, as well as consumers getting cheaper music too. That’s why adopting a new source in a streamer is absolutely the way to go for the music industry. At the moment consumers don’t have the streaming tech on mass and are being punished in price through smaller chunks of the market existing in cd, downloads, and streaming services.

if you look at the Riaa stats in the us, cd is lower than 40percent of all total sales. But the classical music industry man going on about what will happen, as stated in the post above, doesn’t reflect the fact that the market isn’t one where downloads and cd don’t exist. Cd won’t but downloads are increasing of CDs market share to accommodate the need to own. But I agree with the comment that it’s annoying when music disappears on your streaming service, but that’s why downloads will continue, not least there is huge infrastructure around downloads that are profitable eg iTunes and amazon etc. It’s also why buying CDs makes sense now if you want better quality files to rip to your nas, for the perspective of ownership, by audiophiles won’t sustain cd to this extent of the way CDs are bought to rip better files. So that classical guy is being sensationalist and probably because he yearns for the margins traditionally available on CDs. I’m sorry he just has to get with it, and go with the way the market is going and the times. The quicker new cd production can die, the better for me, as it’s all about music. If it forces all the dinosaurs like my dad to buy a streamer then think what positive thing that will do the industry. That’s one reason I don’t get audiophiles who just like cd or vinyl because ironically it means they can’t like new stuff, a function of changes in the market. Maybe they are distinct and just like old stuff, but I do think it’s about half and half with streaming on here.

 

[Macspur]

I would never pay for a download.

Mac

[/

quote]

..and that is different from paying for a CD how?

It's not the physical format and that's my preferred way of owning and listening to my music... I begrudge paying £7.99 for a file to sit on my PC and in my case, I can't even see the bloody thing lol!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

sorry Mac but these are sentimental reasons and reluctance for change from the old order. I’d rather pay £8 than £13 my music shop charge for a new cd. I think most would do as it’s very price elastic. Not least of which if it becomes £4 Because more people do it, it’s much cheaper than usual £10 of cd. Think of all those costs of production, delivery, wholesale etc in cd. You don’t have that with downloads.

There's nothing sentimental about being blind I can assure you!

I rarely pay over £10 for a CD and usually quite a lot less.

Now just wrap up FFS!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I can understand that. Isn’t there software blind people can get on your pc eg speech vocals, to download online.

the used market for CDs is a different comparator for price to the difference between new CDs and downloads. You can’t have a cheap used market for CDs, freely available for all music, if they stop new cd production.