The Latest Purchase - Onkyo TX-NR818

[Craig M.]

For some reason this springs to mind. Clicky. That is how to compare stuff - level matched direct comparison.

Ah, the bus has arrived...

Brilliant.

 

[manicm]

Again you're only focussing on dynamic range. Since distortion is the enemy of everything and measurements are all that matter, perhaps you could find the THD of an average AV receiver compared to a similarly priced stereo amp from the same manufacturer?

So SS amps are much better than tube amps then?

One can also ask if tube amps are much better than SS amps? Could it be that in audio playback sometimes results transcend measurements?

 

[rendu]

It is a tough question indeed. Here is another thought...

Could it be that the way that music is recorded is very different than the way that movies are recorded? The listening experience that each of them tries to achieve is completely different. If you have 2 different types of recordings to suit different purpose and you use the same machine for both, it is probably difficult to meet all the requirements.

Cinema is designed to create a 3D soundstage and get you involved in the action, the some requirements could be: clinical detailed sound, mid equalization range for voices, 3D expansive soundstage, bottom end attack for action and dynamics. The music on the other hand requires different features, musicality, focus, punch, imaging, timing, grip, drums, and most important, beat etc. When preamp section is designed to do very well at movies and get the best of those recording, I beleive that it is very difficult that the same preamp can also fit music. Same dress can not fit both. For example one caracteristic of my AVR is the 3D expansion soundfield, it is enormous. When you apply this to music, it sound nice but it is another story, it is not stereo sound... it does not work. Same as when I play Rianha and instead of fast punchy drums I get explosions.....

It seems that AVR is finding ways to improve this so please I hope nobody takes this as criticism to any particular product.

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

 

[John Duncan]

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

Nah, the passive crossover will mean it all sounds like mush...

 

[The_Lhc]

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

Nah, the passive crossover will mean it all sounds like mush...

MASH!!!! You HAVE to say MASH there!! Come on man...

 

[John Duncan]

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

Nah, the passive crossover will mean it all sounds like mush...

MASH!!!! You HAVE to say MASH there!! Come on man...

You are right. He is feeding me the lines and I am missing them.

 

[BigH]

It is a tough question indeed. Here is another thought...

Could it be that the way that music is recorded is very different than the way that movies are recorded? The listening experience that each of them tries to achieve is completely different. If you have 2 different types of recordings to suit different purpose and you use the same machine for both, it is probably difficult to meet all the requirements.

Cinema is designed to create a 3D soundstage and get you involved in the action, the some requirements could be: clinical detailed sound, mid equalization range for voices, 3D expansive soundstage, bottom end attack for action and dynamics. The music on the other hand requires different features, musicality, focus, punch, imaging, timing, grip, drums, and most important, beat etc. When preamp section is designed to do very well at movies and get the best of those recording, I beleive that it is very difficult that the same preamp can also fit music. Same dress can not fit both. For example one caracteristic of my AVR is the 3D expansion soundfield, it is enormous. When you apply this to music, it sound nice but it is another story, it is not stereo sound... it does not work. Same as when I play Rianha and instead of fast punchy drums I get explosions.....

It seems that AVR is finding ways to improve this so please I hope nobody takes this as criticism to any particular product.

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

I can agree with some of that but some soundtracks are used as hifi test music so I'm not so sure.

 

[The_Lhc]

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

Nah, the passive crossover will mean it all sounds like mush...

MASH!!!! You HAVE to say MASH there!! Come on man...

You are right. He is feeding me the lines and I am missing them.

However the Cone of Shame makes up for an awful lot, excellent!

 

[steve_1979]

Given that movie soundtracks generally have a much greater dynamic range than purely music recordings

Is that a given?

IME movies almost always have more dynamic range than music does.

 

[John Duncan]

IME movies almost always have more dynamic range than music does.

Mine too. But it's not all about dynamic range is it, which Overdose appears to want to make it...?

 

[John Duncan]

Given that movie soundtracks generally have a much greater dynamic range than purely music recordings

Is that a given?

IME movies almost always have more dynamic range than music does.

Interesting conversation about it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1169057/measuring-dynamic-range-in-movies

 

[steve_1979]

IME movies almost always have more dynamic range than music does.

Mine too. But it's not all about dynamic range is it

I agree.

(That's twice in one month! )

 

[Overdose]

Overdose, read my first reply to you. I cannot explain scientifically but I think it's pretty logical. To simplistically summarise, why an AV amp may not sound good with music is because with movies you're 95% being indulged in 'loudness wars', which is more welcome when viewing, but not always welcome with non-visual listening.

To me it's as simple as that.

On the contrary, movies have a far greater dynamic range than music. The loudness wars relates to music being made to sound louder by using dynamic compression. Quite the opposite to movies.

 

[Overdose]

IME movies almost always have more dynamic range than music does.

Mine too. But it's not all about dynamic range is it, which Overdose appears to want to make it...?

Not at all. If a movie soundtrack, which includes music by the way, sounds excellent through an AV amp, then a music recording will also sound excellent, regardless of any chosen parameter. The amplifier does not differentiate between the two media types.

 

[John Duncan]

IME movies almost always have more dynamic range than music does.

Mine too. But it's not all about dynamic range is it, which Overdose appears to want to make it...?

The amplifier does not differentiate between the two media types.

No, but the producers of the media do. So a soundtrack which "sounds excellent" may do so for entirely different reasons that stereo music would do; effects steering in the case of an AV receiver, and channel separation in the case of a stereo amplifier, for example.

Found those distortion figures yet?

 

[manicm]

Overdose, read my first reply to you. I cannot explain scientifically but I think it's pretty logical. To simplistically summarise, why an AV amp may not sound good with music is because with movies you're 95% being indulged in 'loudness wars', which is more welcome when viewing, but not always welcome with non-visual listening.

To me it's as simple as that.

On the contrary, movies have a far greater dynamic range than music. The loudness wars relates to music being made to sound louder by using dynamic compression. Quite the opposite to movies.

I wasn't talking about dynamic range, just saying you're constantly bombarded sounds in movies, which is a very different sort of dynamism to music, where rhythm is much more prevalent and emphasised, and which IMO is more difficult to keep a grip on than in an average movie. Movie audio does not have much repetition, which is why I say you'd have to go looking for a bad AV amp today if you were only interested in movies.

 

[Paul.]

Regarding the test of Craig m. it is very interesting indeed. My thought would be that with that level of speakers you can probably plug a "potato" with cables and it will still sound amazing... :-d

Nah, the passive crossover will mean it all sounds like mush...

MASH!!!! You HAVE to say MASH there!! Come on man...

You are right. He is feeding me the lines and I am missing them.

However the Cone of Shame makes up for an awful lot, excellent!

FIXED!

 

[Frank Harvey]

The amplifier does not differentiate between the two media types.

No, but the producers of the media do. So a soundtrack which "sounds excellent" may do so for entirely different reasons that stereo music would do; effects steering in the case of an AV receiver, and channel separation in the case of a stereo amplifier, for example.

Also, it's worth noting that most music in movies is EQ'd to suit the movie or to sound much more impressive than it actually is. Listen to any 60's music in movies (for example) and it sounds great, but play it on a hi-fi system and the reality is quite different.

 

[Overdose]

Also, it's worth noting that most music in movies is EQ'd to suit the movie or to sound much more impressive than it actually is. Listen to any 60's music in movies (for example) and it sounds great, but play it on a hi-fi system and the reality is quite different.

Not being an expert, but I would imagine things to have moved on in the last 50 years or so.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Also, it's worth noting that most music in movies is EQ'd to suit the movie or to sound much more impressive than it actually is. Listen to any 60's music in movies (for example) and it sounds great, but play it on a hi-fi system and the reality is quite different.

Not being an expert, but I would imagine things to have moved on in the last 50 years or so.

Note, "for example". I was using 60's music as a good example of what I was trying to get across. It doesn't matter when the original track was recorded, and yes, 50 years later, even with better recording techniques, music in movies still sounds different in movies - because it is EQ'd. Accuracy, detail, neutrality etc isn't really the order of the day here, so beats are beefed up, basslines made fatter or more prominent, and upper frequencies smoothed/curtailed. Of course, every now and again, a track in a film will sound as good as the CD.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about pre-recorded music here, not film scores.

 

[Overdose]

Also, it's worth noting that most music in movies is EQ'd to suit the movie or to sound much more impressive than it actually is. Listen to any 60's music in movies (for example) and it sounds great, but play it on a hi-fi system and the reality is quite different.

Not being an expert, but I would imagine things to have moved on in the last 50 years or so.

Note, "for example". I was using 60's music as a good example of what I was trying to get across. It doesn't matter when the original track was recorded, and yes, 50 years later, even with better recording techniques, music in movies still sounds different in movies - because it is EQ'd. Accuracy, detail, neutrality etc isn't really the order of the day here, so beats are beefed up, basslines made fatter or more prominent, and upper frequencies smoothed/curtailed. Of course, every now and again, a track in a film will sound as good as the CD.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about pre-recorded music here, not film scores.

So you are suggesting that movie soundtracks are not 'hifi'?

Arguably, you won't neccessarily find the qualities highlighted in bold in quite a lot of hifi anyway, as those qualities seem to be regarded as a sign of 'over analytical' or 'clinical' sounding equipment, with many people seemingly prefering some sort of tonal colouration instead that you imply is inherent in movies.

At any rate, none of your statements explain how an AVR that competently plays back movie soundtracks, cannot do the same with music recordings. An AVR is just an amplifier with extra features and functions over and above a stereo amplifier and provided it can properly control the speakers attached to it and not add any audible distortion, then it will be no better or worse than any other amplifer doing the same thing.

 

[John Duncan]

provided it can properly control the speakers attached to it and not add any audible distortion

Shall I help you out here? The £1k Onkyo receiver quotes 0.8% distortion, the £1k stereo amp quotes 0.08%. I am going to presume that since they come from the same manufacturer, they're using the same sort of measuring tools.

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder why the OP thinks it sounds better than the stereo amplifier then? It shouldn't.

 

[the record spot]

provided it can properly control the speakers attached to it and not add any audible distortion

Shall I help you out here? The £1k Onkyo receiver quotes 0.8% distortion, the £1k stereo amp quotes 0.08%. I am going to presume that since they come from the same manufacturer, they're using the same sort of measuring tools.

From page 111 of the receiver, THD is 0.08% too John and not 0.8% as you quote.

http://www.uk.onkyo.com/downloads/2/1/7/1/8/Manual_TX-NR818_English.pdf

 

[the record spot]

I wonder why the OP thinks it sounds better than the stereo amplifier then? It shouldn't.

Probably because I've worked my way through several of the former, have an open mind, and think that it sounds as good as any stereo amp I've owned. Have you heard it or just quoting perceived "wisdom"?