The Apex Club

[ellisdj]

Similar is not the same - while it will work ok the blend of the speakers that creates panning and effects wont marry up as good. Trust me my system is like this now

Having bigger speakers will change the sound but it wont go properly with what you have.

Smaller speakers image better than larger speakers which is good for home theatre

Do you use a sub?

If so what do you crossover at? If in region 80htz all bass is done by your sub.

If you want bigger speakers then change the whole front out LC R not just LR. People have floorstanders for L and R when they want to listen to music full range.

The main snag.with apex.a40 it has to be wall mounted - if you use the a10 you can stand mount them - they behave like a normal small bookshelf like this - might be a route to consider

 

[Mtenga]

Yes I use a monolith and cross it over at 100hz though my receiver suggested 80 and the speaker is capable of 60 according to the specs. It is the potential for improved music performance that would be driving the change. Certainly the three A40s image well. Half the time everything sounds like it is coming out of the centre. You have to put your ear to the left and right sometimes to know they are on.

I've got my A40s on table tops. They provide little rubber feet to allow that.

 

[ellisdj]

Why do you crossover @ 100htz?

You said you wanted bigger speakers for a big movie sound what is your main goal of making the change? Improve movies or music?

Even though you can put the speakers on a table top doesnt mean thats a good thing to do overall - this couls be an.area you can improve as.i.suggested before

If you plan to crossover at 100htz with floorstanders there is no point having them?

 

[Mtenga]

Why do you crossover @ 100htz?

You said you wanted bigger speakers for a big movie sound what is your main goal of making the change? Improve movies or music?

Even though you can put the speakers on a table top doesnt mean thats a good thing to do overall - this couls be an.area you can improve as.i.suggested before

If you plan to crossover at 100htz with floorstanders there is no point having them?

I crossover at 100 because it sounds better using a bit more sub.

the main goal would be to improve music. Though movies might sound different and better.

its not possible for me to wall mount them in my current circumstances though I would if I could.

Clearly I would not crossover the floorstanders at 100. The point would be that they are more bass capable.

 

[ellisdj]

If improving music is your main goal then that does change things slightly - however if you change ther L&R for different speakers you will compromise the overlal soundfield. This is not ideal - you especially want the front 3 to be the same

How do you currently feed your AV Receiver for music - via a digital lead or analogue?

How do you playback music - using the sub as well or just the speakers?

What area needs improving in the music playback?

 

[RickyDeg]

Mtenga, I would pay attention to ellisdj's advice here!

If you are looking for a unified soundfield for movies or multichannel music then identical speakers (say, all A40's) all-round IS the way forward, no doubts about it. Mixing floorstanders and smaller center/surrounds is something I did for years and years (Apex is my 9:th speaker system), and while traditional 2-channel stereo music was great with the floorstanders, there was always the issue of a non-homogenic soundfield that no EQ can cure. I always had a feeling that something was 'off' while enjoying movies. Some are more sensitive to this than others but I think once you've experienced a system with identical speakers all-round it's VERY hard to go back because you realise "how it's suppose to sound" in terms of panning effects that constantly occur in movie soundtracks. A unified soundfield will draw you in more easily with much less distraction.

There is a reason why mixing studios primarily use sub/sat systems when recording soundtracks and more often than not all speakers are identical. If I could I would have only A40's all-round, no question! My A10 + A40 mix is therefore a slight "compromise", but one I accept for the time being. My next system will definitely consist of the same speakers all round.

 

[RickyDeg]

BTW - can hardly believe this thread been going strong for over 3 years now :exmark:

Thanks to gosalh for starting it

 

[fayeanddavid]

Mtenga, I would pay attention to ellisdj's advice here!

If you are looking for a unified soundfield for movies or multichannel music then identical speakers (say, all A40's) all-round IS the way forward, no doubts about it. Mixing floorstanders and smaller center/surrounds is something I did for years and years (Apex is my 9:th speaker system), and while traditional 2-channel stereo music was great with the floorstanders, there was always the issue of a non-homogenic soundfield that no EQ can cure. I always had a feeling that something was 'off' while enjoying movies. Some are more sensitive to this than others but I think once you've experienced a system with identical speakers all-round it's VERY hard to go back because you realise "how it's suppose to sound" in terms of panning effects that constantly occur in movie soundtracks. A unified soundfield will draw you in more easily with much less distraction.

There is a reason why mixing studios primarily use sub/sat systems when recording soundtracks and more often than not all speakers are identical. If I could I would have only A40's all-round, no question! My A10 + A40 mix is therefore a slight "compromise", but one I accept for the time being. My next system will definitely consist of the same speakers all round.

Can only but agree with the above;

I have three A40s across the front and am currently persuading the good lady that a pair of A40s at the side will look and sound just fine!!

In support of earlier comments; I also believe that movies are mastered for sub/sat configurations, and where the Apex A40s score is that they are pretty damned good with music also, so unless you really need hi end audiophile 2 channel stereo untainted, I would say with what you have.

Admittedly most of what is played through the Apex is from iThings, via AirPlay or Bluetooth, but it still sounds just fine

The subject of crossover was mentioned, mine are crossed over at 100Hz also, two views, 1. AntiMode suggest upping the xover and have a listen(and it works at a higher x over) and 2. I believe that higher x over gives better integration at high volume levels. Sub integration is seamless and sounds just brilliant, took some tweaking with volume/gain, but well worth the time and effort

 

[fayeanddavid]

[[/quote]

I crossover at 100 because it sounds better using a bit more sub.

the main goal would be to improve music. Though movies might sound different and better.

its not possible for me to wall mount them in my current circumstances though I would if I could.

Clearly I would not crossover the floorstanders at 100. The point would be that they are more bass capable.

[/quote]

Isn't that the point of the sub though, to take the lead in low frequency and support any speaker associated with the sub?

A sub only has low frequencies to manage, thus making for an easier load being presented to the speakers.

Why do you want to change, if you are 80/20 movies/music then I would stay with what you have IMHO, howver if you are a music man with a few movies then there may be a reason, then I would go with KEF LS50s and keep the sub

 

[ellisdj]

Cross over frequency is irrelevant to integration between the speakers and sub.

Its advised to crossover at 80htz as the ear cannot detect the locality of origin of 80hz bass so its a good crossover point. Often room modes, phase problems and sub distortion is perceived as bass directionality.

Setting the correct sub phase is the most overlooked thing in home setups. Anyone who sets a crossover from ear is also not really doing the right thing - you need to measure and see where its best to set the crossover.

Adding an antimode is a good way to improve bass performance if the rceiver doesnt have comprehensice management - I dont think yamahas do.

The Monolith has a flat freq response down to 30htz in free air - thats awesome - put that in a room and it will go wildly off depending on the room so the anitmode helps to stop that.

(having owned an antimode and now having what I have - I would probably use the lift 35hz option )

This is a step too far at this stage we need to know how Mtenga has his system setup to truely advise on how to improve music stereo or 2.1 playback.

 

[Mtenga]

A few points above. Firstly I do use an Antimode and it does tame the peaks and make it all more natural. A good integration with the speakers. Certainly movies are my main interest and I don't have a particular problem with the musical performance but just feel that floorstanders may offer more in that respect. The question is then of the impact on the movie watching from having floorstanders rather than matched A40s? Consensus seems to be that that is negative. i have a cd attached to the receiver via analogue and stream FLAC to that same device via dlna. It's a dual purpose device. So that's my music.

 

[ellisdj]

Sounds like your doing mostly what you can, the only thing that i can think of suggesting is feeding the receiver digital from your cd player to prevent the receiver converting the analogue signal back to digital. This is.not true of streaming though so thats not a problem just a reco.

I think when it comes to music playback speaker positioning is all important. This could be a problem. This is where the a10 stands can work better

If you want to run pure direct through the receiver into floorstanders dont let us stop you - just get the matching centre as well

 

[Mtenga]

I've already invested in the A40s and like them so want to continue with them, at the very least with one as centre. Its sort of reassuring what people are saying. There is just a constant niggle at the back of mind about having larger and fuller speakers. Its just a desire for potential improvements rather than my current setup letting me down or being deficient with either movies or music.

I'd be interested to hear from people that have an Apex set in part and use floorstanders for the stereo pair or have left Apex for something bigger. I've seen both on this site.

 

[fayeanddavid]

I've already invested in the A40s and like them so want to continue with them, at the very least with one as centre. Its sort of reassuring what people are saying. There is just a constant niggle at the back of mind about having larger and fuller speakers. Its just a desire for potential improvements rather than my current setup letting me down or being deficient with either movies or music.

I'd be interested to hear from people that have an Apex set in part and use floorstanders for the stereo pair or have left Apex for something bigger. I've seen both on this site.

mtenga

as you may remember I did move away from a KEF R series (500 and 600C) to the Apex (via LS50s which my wife did not like), and I will put my hand up and say that it is the best thing I have done in terms of performance, especially for movies (include tv in this)

For years (and years) I had been hung up on floor standers, a "matching" centre speaker (that can never quite match) and surrounds, now with 3 x A40s across the front the sound stage, quality and effects is perfectly tonally balanced and seamless.........................personally I would not move away from this approach.

Even if I were to listen "seriously" to music I would stay with what I have, compared to what I used to have, I have been down the route of quality record decks and amplification for two channel, upmarket cd players etc, now all our music is around 320kps digital and more than mets my needs

I respect the challenge that you have, it's that "what if" and " it could be better" challenge that niggles, stay with what you have or get 2 x A40s for the front LR duties and position them vertically......................................you know you want to!

Then, when funds allow, consider a pre/power set up, now that takes you to the next level.

Good luck

 

[ric71]

You have been given some good advice.

Moving to floorstanders will be a mistake and it may well introduce many other issues. It is also a complete miss truth spouted by the Hifi brigade that subs don't work with stereo.

Using a sub sat system is a far more flexible option, that when implemented properly will give fantastic results.

You def should not be lacking anything in the bass dept with a sub sat system. If you feel you are then consider a more capable sub. I would look at a KK DXD808 for starters. The Mono is the best sub out there for the money but move up a bracket and there is a huge difference in performance.

 

[ellisdj]

You like the Apex I can tell - I have not heard 2 a40s in stereo 2.1 but I bet they are good - more drivers is generally a good thing - look at the Bose model when it comes to their high end pa speakers.

I know from experience that when you run an av system for music it takes a lot to get it to sound great.

The sub needs to be perfect as its 50% of the sound with sub sattelites more crossing over at 100hz.

It adds all the scale and has to be right to support the rest. If the timing of the sub is off then it sound disjointed to the rest of the music. I wouldnt trust an auto setup to get it perfect it wont.

Post 8 on this thread links to AVF where someone has posted a download and some instructions of how you set your sub phase using the distance

In a nut shell you play the disc which you d/l and burn as a DVD - it plays a beeping soud from your speakers and sub - you adjust the distance of the sub until both start and stop together. This easy to do tip will improve your subs timing and bass weight I found.

Well worth doing for everyone - for the record I adjusted mine 10cm it sounded better. My Cousin adjusted his 15cm - so its not huge but it def helps and is worth checking

 

[Mtenga]

Well I'm convinced based upon what I've heard here, next upgrade will be two more A40s which will leave me with five of them for the main speakers and two A10s as surround backs. It's cheaper as well >)

Will look at the sub as well in time, I'm sure someone will come around to pickup a relatively new monolith for a decent discount.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont think selling the monolith is a good idea - you could go out and spend £3k on a sub doesnt mean you will get better bass - it doesnt work that way.

Sealed bass subs are genrally considered better for music but thats categorical and then generally suffer in the low end. Bass quality is about speaker and sub placement / seating position first - then all imprtant room acoustics.

I am not saying one sub is not better than another its just whether you are getting the best from what you have before spending a ton of money more

 

[ric71]

If you have correctly set up a monolith it will sound good. If you correctly set up any of the following subs correctly it will trash the monolith in all areas. KK 808,12012 Paradigm Sub 12,15,Sub1/2 JL Fathoms/Gothams the list goes on.

But as you have been told set your sub up properly first.

 

[ellisdj]

Thats a punchy comment - the monolith is a well designed sub with the box allowing in essence / measured flawless bass performance to 30hz if you want a flat response - In the right room only! like all subs / speakers they are only as good as the surroundings! No amount ot technology can change laws of physics with regards to sound waves

Subs you have reco'd are designed differently, with the odd exception - to try and squeeze good low end performance out of small boxes. Not saying they dont perform well, I have very limuted experience.

I was keen on the DXD's from KK but they have one major flaw in my eyes - they use switching power supplies and amplification. From that I would be drawn to the JL Audios - as they have proper torodial transformer based power supplies in their subs. For the money you get linear power supplies in BK Subs as well - that I like very much and I feel is a very good thing.

 

[ric71]

I don't think its punchy at all. The BK subs cannot be beaten for the cost by anyone.

your 400 sounds great but if you replaced it with one of the ones I listed it will be a massive improvement as I know you will take the time to calibrate it properly.

Yes a crap room can have an adverse effect

 

[ellisdj]

Well your right in that those subs have supposedly had a lot of design gone into the drivers and other important elements - where as the bk subs are using general speakers you can buy for not a lot of money. You would expect design to have gone into these drivers as well but in comparison to a JL Audio driver with 10 patents etc there is no comparison. I dont doubt they are a lot better considering all factors

My 400 is an average sub at best - it has flaws - its not braced that well, and I think you get distortion at certain frequncies which will be inherent in the design. This manifests in directionality - but I cant confirm this until my room is better treated.

The monolith is different though - its a simple case of mathematics and box size to be the flat response. You wouldnt expect to have the same problems with it in the right environment - providing its braced well etc.

BK dont recommend it for music though so again its not perfect

 

[Mtenga]

Whilst I dont mind the monolith size I wouldnt say no to something smaller. I've attached an antimode, run the YPAO (which does EQ the sub) and placed it in the best position that I can. Little more one can do in terms of setting it up.

 

[ellisdj]

If you have measured the subs resposne using REW or similar and found the best position in your room then fair play you have done the right thing - I assume by the best place you have measured and found the spot that has the least nulls - most even frequency response.?

There are more things you can do still.

Firstly is measure the combined left speaker and sub, the combined right speaker and sub to make sure you have the correct phase selected on the dial on the sub.

If this is wrong you will get a suckout/ null through your cross over frequency which is very bad ? You would not be able to test this by ear but it will adversely affect things if its wrong. Quite often one side reads better than another but you can tell quite easily by the readings if the sub is out of phase with the speakers. I think most modern receivers do put the sub in correct phase but I would not trust this and check to make sure.

Secondly you can check the receiver has selected the correct distance to put the sub in correct time alignment with the speakers - I linked to this a few posts back - using the dvd ticking sound and adjusting the sub distance so the ticking stops ansd starts at the same time for both the sub/speakers

I would check to see if YPAO EQ on the sub is actually adding anything or eqing for the sake of it (Quiet often the case - YPAO is a basic paramtric eq which will more than likely create more problems than do good). Contrary to popular belief you actually want to eq as least as possible - small changes of + - 3db or so are in audible so its additional processing thats not needed.

Lastly again using REW you can analyse the frequncy response of your main speakers and sub to select the best crossover point - this way you know for sure you are selecting the right crossover. Not in a null or not in a peak. This is pretty impossible by ear - its just a guess.

PS I assume with the antimode you have attached it - then run its auto setup? There has been no mention of that? This obviously needs doing before you run YPAO

Also I would advise you use the same sub cable to the antimode as you use to the sub. QED Signature sub cables are particularly good

 

[Mtenga]

Thanks for suggesting further tweaking options. If I ever get the time I might be interested in REW but haven't to date. Yes I did manage to remember to run the Antimode setup. It made a difference.