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Still no right answer to Hi Fi satisfactory sound

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stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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Guys let me sum up things a bit. My opinion is really an objective point. This has nothing to do with the personal sound preferences. I'll give you an example. The other day my band recorded a demo in a studio. We got at the end a mother CD with our tunes and straight off I put the CD into the Hi Fi. A few days later the radio station played our demo. I know the sound simply because I created it with my friends. The CD has up until today no comparison to the sound from the radio. Even the recorded boradcast from playing our music on a station sounds better today than the Hi Fi playback - no matter on which Hi Fi we played it on - I mean the music from radio broadcast was the most similar to the real sound from our demo . Do you get it ? I wish most of you could listen your favourite CD played in a studio and then on your Hi Fi....That's why I am saying that source of our Hi Fi is stripped the fundamental compression and expander tools - exposing certain frequencies much more than others. If you adjust generic treble / bass that is ok but also that is no solution because you in turn put a veil on other frequencies.Still better than no adjustment. It is not so much about the scale itself it is about the given frequency spectrum that needs to be entirely exposed - just do yourself a 40Hz up to 20Khz sound test from YouTube for example. You will easily hear how many frequency dips your system has in certain passages. These dip passages in case of a radio broadcast are compensated to the listener by compression and expansion.
 
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SpursGator

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Jan 12, 2012
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that source of our Hi Fi is stripped the fundamental compression and expander tools

If you adjust generic treble / bass that is ok but also that is no solution because you in turn put a veil on other frequencies.Still better than no adjustment.

These dip passages in case of a radio broadcast are compensated to the listener by compression and expansion.
You should buy an old-school graphic equalizer and run your system through it. Make all of the little sliders look like a big parabola. That is what FM stations do, along with compression. That is what you are hearing.

They do this to compensate for uneven aerial reception that would make the music sound harsh. They also do it because a lot of recordings are less than perfect - they don't want you changing the channel if a song they are paid to play sounds crap.

Think of it like a digital photo editor, who can open imperfectly taken shots on a computer, and apply a little blur to make up for the underlying imperfections, making for a prettier picture. But what you are saying is that ALL photos would look better if we just bought a monitor with that effect built-in, whereas a hifi fanatic would rather have the absolute sharpest resolution possible, with the understanding that this is likely to expose more imperfections.

You know, many if not most hi-fi speakers have a little of this built-in. Maybe you need better speakers - or you guys should hit the big time, get into a studio with six-digit mics, and make better recordings! But you will not convince me that FM radio (or heavily eq'd/compressed music in general) sounds better. It's more like an addiction - like salt. A little makes things taste better. More than a little, and after awhile nothing tastes like anything without salt.
 
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stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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Or one can take the positive techie approach, and point out that radio speakers are usually full-range, with no crossover, and that some people prefer this presentation such that it is a whole sub-hobby within speaker building. There are whole websites devoted to building high-end speakers out of old radio drivers, because some people think they sound better, and whole companies that specialise in this weird world of beamy, high-efficiency, single-driver speakers (the best, and weirdest, one is Supravox, a company which is, of course, French). Some people just hate anything but a single-driver presentation - maybe OP is one of them.
Nice and very good answer - really up to the point...actually the company looks indeed really interesting. Maybe lack of crossover is the solution.
https://www.supravox.fr/en/categorie-produit/speakers/floorstanding/
...but the thing is radio also sounds good on 2 way speakers....by the way.
 

Friesiansam

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Feb 3, 2015
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I spend far more time on computer forums than I do here and, reading this thread, I can just imagine the response if someone posted that modern PCs are too fast and unemotional and we would all be better off using an abacus.
 

stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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I spend far more time on computer forums than I do here and, reading this thread, I can just imagine the response if someone posted that modern PCs are too fast and unemotional and we would all be better off using an abacus.
Oh really ? Then say this now again to all who are using turntables Mr Klugscheißer.
 

SpursGator

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Jan 12, 2012
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I spend far more time on computer forums than I do here and, reading this thread, I can just imagine the response if someone posted that modern PCs are too fast and unemotional and we would all be better off using an abacus.
I'm more of a techie myself, and I remember telling a friend of mine (a serious musician) back in about 1989 that I thought MIDI cables would eventually replace quarter-inch cable. He was into computers too - more of a distinction at the time - but he basically laughed me out of the room and said, dude, you are thinking like a techie, not a musician.

I never forgot it and it was important lesson. It is like saying to a painter that there is a new type of polymer-based paint coming that will make oils and watercolors obsolete.
 
Guys let me sum up things a bit. My opinion is really an objective point. This has nothing to do with the personal sound preferences. I'll give you an example. The other day my band recorded a demo in a studio. We got at the end a mother CD with our tunes and straight off I put the CD into the Hi Fi. A few days later the radio station played our demo. I know the sound simply because I created it with my friends. The CD has up until today no comparison to the sound from the radio. Even the recorded boradcast from playing our music on a station sounds better today than the Hi Fi playback - no matter on which Hi Fi we played it on - I mean the music from radio broadcast was the most similar to the real sound from our demo . Do you get it ? I wish most of you could listen your favourite CD played in a studio and then on your Hi Fi....That's why I am saying that source of our Hi Fi is stripped the fundamental compression and expander tools - exposing certain frequencies much more than others. If you adjust generic treble / bass that is ok but also that is no solution because you in turn put a veil on other frequencies.Still better than no adjustment. It is not so much about the scale itself it is about the given frequency spectrum that needs to be entirely exposed - just do yourself a 40Hz up to 20Khz sound test from YouTube for example. You will easily hear how many frequency dips your system has in certain passages. These dip passages in case of a radio broadcast are compensated to the listener by compression and expansion.
“exposing certain frequencies much more than others”

Compression systems used by radio “expose” ALL frequencies, and to virtually the same volume! Any dynamics inherent in the music are gone. Big crescendos and slow builds ups no longer exist. And gone is a wide frequency response - you’ll get a wider frequency response from a cassette tape.

The only real difference (if comparing the end result CD) in the sound of a studio to home is the room treatment.

Look, I’m with you, in one sense. I do think that products like equalisers should come back. Let people listen to music the way they want to listen to it. If that’s using graphic equalisers with settings that just boost bass and treble and remove midrange (the good old U shape curve!), so be it. Let them. It was part of the fun in the 80s. Digital room EQ is the moPedro day equivalent if the graphic equalisers, but equalisers can be used easily by anybody, even by someone who has never seen it before. Stick a PC screen and a microphone in front of people and you’ve lost them immediately. Plus, it’s no fun.

If you were trying to tell me that what you actually played (not recorded) sounded nothing like the end result, I could understand, but there is no way that a cheap, mono radio being fed a dynamically compressed, limited frequency range can ever hope to compete with even a half decent budget Hi-Fi. That’s not me being biased. Please do give us a list of components in these Hi-Fi systems that are supposed to sap everything out of music.
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
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“exposing certain frequencies much more than others”

Compression systems used by radio “expose” ALL frequencies, and to virtually the same volume! Any dynamics inherent in the music are gone. Big crescendos and slow builds ups no longer exist. And gone is a wide frequency response - you’ll get a wider frequency response from a cassette tape.

The only real difference (if comparing the end result CD) in the sound of a studio to home is the room treatment.

Look, I’m with you, in one sense. I do think that products like equalisers should come back. Let people listen to music the way they want to listen to it. If that’s using graphic equalisers with settings that just boost bass and treble and remove midrange (the good old U shape curve!), so be it. Let them. It was part of the fun in the 80s. Digital room EQ is the moPedro day equivalent if the graphic equalisers, but equalisers can be used easily by anybody, even by someone who has never seen it before. Stick a PC screen and a microphone in front of people and you’ve lost them immediately. Plus, it’s no fun.

If you were trying to tell me that what you actually played (not recorded) sounded nothing like the end result, I could understand, but there is no way that a cheap, mono radio being fed a dynamically compressed, limited frequency range can ever hope to compete with even a half decent budget Hi-Fi. That’s not me being biased. Please do give us a list of components in these Hi-Fi systems that are supposed to sap everything out of music.
David , yes I agree with your point of view too and your techie knowledge. Let me then strip everything off and I will try to describe shortly what I really mean.
There is no doubt that a small radio cannot compete with serious Hi Fi in terms of precision of the sound. But the whole point is that precision of the sound does not need necessarily go together with sound excitement and enjoyment.
In the long term of being in Hi Fi I know really what I am talking about. So if you put a CD into a drawer of a Hi Fi that costs a grand you give me the whole scale, clean non compressed sound etc. but what I mean this is simply not enough. Because it lacks the sound liveness and vividness that is crucial to the music enjoment. Without this none of even the most expensive Hi Fi can give you the enjoment of the sound. Radio sound on the other hand is totally devoided of these features but give you the sound excitement and upbeat sound - this is exactly what equalisers were a bit supposed to do to spice up the sound. Unfortunately to do this you need more than just an EQ. It looks like expanders, compressors and EQs are all necessary to compose such sound. That is why the good radio stations incorporate such things. I really have no further clue why the Radio sound is the only one that is so specific. Each song , on almost each popular radio station gives me a great joy to listen to - I could never ever say this about any Hi Fi I could hear and hear now up until today. To substantiate my thesis ;) - Look at the posts on almost each Hi Fi forum - you can easily notice that MOST of the threads are from users who complain about the sound and need sound improvement ! I never saw forum that could consist of at least 50% satisfied users. Once again - we are not talking about the technical advantages of the Hi Fi vs Radio we are talking about the elusive thing that is simply out in every Hi Fi but not on radio. I cannot precisely say what technlologically it is - to say this we would need a sound engineer from a radio station who could describe precisely what it is all about.
 

abacus

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Sep 24, 2008
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Thing is, Midi is digital that carries no musical information and ¼ Jack is analogue so one was never going to replace the other, hence the reason for the laughter. (Don’t worry though as even today people still think that Midi transmits audio)

If you get a nicely balanced £1000 system it will blow the socks off a £10,000 poorly balanced system, and the same applies to radio which is engineered to sound great with limited equipment, (Hence the enjoyment) in fact with modern music tech you can almost make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Bill
 
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12th Monkey

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Aug 31, 2015
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ou can easily notice that MOST of the threads are from users who complain about the sound and need sound improvement ! I never saw forum that could consist of at least 50% satisfied users.
I think that's because many of us only participate when we are looking to improve, or have a specific problem. Imagine how boring it would be if everyone just popped up periodically to say they were happy with how their system sounds?

It sounds as though you should just listen to the radio. I wouldn't expect you've persuaded many of us to follow suit, but no-one can say you haven't given it your best shot!
 
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Look at the posts on almost each Hi Fi forum - you can easily notice that MOST of the threads are from users who complain about the sound and need sound improvement ! I never saw forum that could consist of at least 50% satisfied users. Once again - we are not talking about the technical advantages of the Hi Fi vs Radio we are talking about the elusive thing that is simply out in every Hi Fi but not on radio. I cannot precisely say what technlologically it is - to say this we would need a sound engineer from a radio station who could describe precisely what it is all about.
That’s not because hifi is some “elusive” thing, it’s mainly because people buy used or ex-demo stuff because it’s cheaper than rrp that really isn’t suitable for their purpose - speakers that just don’t work in their rooms, amplifiers that arent suitable for the speakers they have, below par source components, equipment that just doesn’t work well together, and equipment they the just don’t like the sound of - all because of a lack of auditioning to make sure their purchase is right for them.

If more people researched their purchase before parting with their cash, there’d be far more happy people around.

EDIT:
And I’m going to add Facebook groups to this. There’s way too many armchair experts out there who are recommending products as a solution to individual's queries because its what they have themselves - whether it’s suitable or not doesn’t come into the equation - it’s what they have therefore it’s the best, and the ideal solution for the individual asking the question. And from what I’ve seen on most Facebook groups, the advice is the worst. I’ve pretty much stopped posting on Facebook groups as some of the advice is dreadful. But of course, someone posted it, so that’s the solution.

Unfortunately the poor advice outweighs the genuinely useful.
 
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Jimboo

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Correct David.The thing is stereo dude hi fi buffs talk it but don't often walk it. I bought my turntable in 1980 a Linn. I will never want another one no matter what shiny new must have arrived. I auditioned things I didn't like at higher and lower than a sensible budget for me would dictate. Listened to amps and c.d players made sure streaming worked and got the dealer to recommend stuff and mix and match. In the end the simplicity of the Kef ls50w with less matching criteria and unfussy placement values made me abandon separates for ever. It was a premium price tag and it has software streaming issues. Coupled with a transport and the Linn it all works for me. It was a bonus that I found it convenient and flexible. I bought it though for the sound. I love it's sound. It replaced naim and quad products. I am totally and utterly content with the sound. Listen to David. I am sympathetic to the endless questions asked on here about is this any good and does this sound like a good idea etc. Audition everything you can afford and dismiss nothing unless you hear it first.
Monkey is right that it would be a bit boring if everyone just popped up to say how happy they are . However , that is me and as David said it really should be all of us. As I hinted at the start of this rambling post. Hi fi buffs on here have lots of old stuff despite their advise on new stuff. If you look at how some of them set up speaker placement and their room environment and then ask why it sounds poor it's because as every one knows you need to get the basics right.
And no, buying a radio isn't the answer.
 
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I’m not saying there is only one way to buy hifi (even if there is only one correct way) - but some like to do things properly and others like to walk tightropes and take chances, and that’s fine, but those that take chances usually end up on forums to express their unhappiness with their latest purchase, which replaces something else they took a chance on that didn’t pan out.
 

SpursGator

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Jan 12, 2012
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That’s not because hifi is some “elusive” thing, it’s mainly because people buy used or ex-demo stuff because it’s cheaper than rrp that really isn’t suitable for their purpose - speakers that just don’t work in their rooms, amplifiers that arent suitable for the speakers they have, below par source components, equipment that just doesn’t work well together, and equipment they the just don’t like the sound of - all because of a lack of auditioning to make sure their purchase is right for them.
David, of course this is right. But the good stuff, from reputable dealers, is just out of reach. Who is this stuff really for? Who exactly can afford to walk into a quality hifi shop and "do it right?" Even a relatively modest system, if bought brand-new and all-at-once, easily runs into the thousands. Midrange systems can cost as much as a nice used car, and high-end speakers alone can creep into new Ford Focus territory, and worse.

And watch out if you decide to buy a component new. I bought a new Naim amp once, was thrilled about it, and the dealer was almost reluctant to sell it to me. He said that if I didn't buy Naim speaker cables I might void my warranty. And it "really wasn't designed" to be connected to a DAC (this was 2002, and I had a just-released Benchmark DAC1 - he did NOT approve). Eventually I talked him into accepting my 1200 quid or whatever it was, and I had a good amp for many years.

I was 28 and buying one component at a time. By 29 I had amassed an iMac, a really good amp, a fairly crappy, but serviceable, pair of Mission speakers, and an insanely good DAC. Four years and a promotion later, I had a pair of ProAc D18s and I suddenly had a pretty damn serious hifi.

Had I gone to Mr. Naim up his A---, my budget would have been what I paid for the DAC+Nait 5+Missions - something under 3 grand. So forget Naim gear. Probably looking at Rega or entry-level Arcam, with a big chunk sunk into a soon-to-be-redundant like-brand CD player sold at a 600% markup, and when I found those (new) D18s, I would have had nothing capable of driving them, and still wouldn't have a DAC! My system would sound well-integrated, but all my upgrades would be to keep it current, with the sound staying...entry level. But well-integrated.

The business model of smallish companies building low-volume, high materials-cost boxes sold in showrooms may will be a good way for a customer to leave with a good system. But in the modern world, in which we have beautiful supercomputers in our pockets that have made practically every tool in the house obsolete, it is just TOO EXPENSIVE. We used to read about the coming technological miracles, and we have it in our pocket, and it's under a grand. It's gotten cheaper and cheaper.

Meanwhile, all that beautiful hifi kit in the magazines? STILL costs a fortune, and you still can't have it unless you are one of the one percent. And you never will! No normal person ever will. May as well read about yachts. You start getting into Ayre, Sonus Faber, Wilson, Krell, high end Linn or Naim - whatever - and you are looking at a price tag that is an irresponsible purchase even for a rich guy!

Walk into most hifi shops to buy a complete system, and leave with a bunch of low-end consumer garbage that's got more hot air in it than actual technology. Unless you are rich.

Some of us want more and most of us aren't rich. Sure, this leads a lot of people to make bad combinations and buy inappropriate kit. But this is why they do it.
 
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stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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David, of course this is right. But the good stuff, from reputable dealers, is just out of reach. Who is this stuff really for? Who exactly can afford to walk into a quality hifi shop and "do it right?" Even a relatively modest system, if bought brand-new and all-at-once, easily runs into the thousands. Midrange systems can cost as much as a nice used car, and high-end speakers alone can creep into new Ford Focus territory, and worse.

And watch out if you decide to buy a component new. I bought a new Naim amp once, was thrilled about it, and the dealer was almost reluctant to sell it to me. He said that if I didn't buy Naim speaker cables I might void my warranty. And it "really wasn't designed" to be connected to a DAC (this was 2002, and I had a just-released Benchmark DAC1 - he did NOT approve). Eventually I talked him into accepting my 1200 quid or whatever it was, and I had a good amp for many years.

I was 28 and buying one component at a time. By 29 I had amassed an iMac, a really good amp, a fairly crappy, but serviceable, pair of Mission speakers, and an insanely good DAC. Four years and a promotion later, I had a pair of ProAc D18s and I suddenly had a pretty damn serious hifi.

Had I gone to Mr. Naim up his A---, my budget would have been what I paid for the DAC+Nait 5+Missions - something under 3 grand. So forget Naim gear. Probably looking at Rega or entry-level Arcam, with a big chunk sunk into a soon-to-be-redundant like-brand CD player sold at a 600% markup, and when I found those (new) D18s, I would have had nothing capable of driving them, and still wouldn't have a DAC! My system would sound well-integrated, but all my upgrades would be to keep it current, with the sound staying...entry level. But well-integrated.

The business model of smallish companies building low-volume, high materials-cost boxes sold in showrooms may will be a good way for a customer to leave with a good system. But in the modern world, in which we have beautiful supercomputers in our pockets that have made practically every tool in the house obsolete, it is just TOO EXPENSIVE. We used to read about the coming technological miracles, and we have it in our pocket, and it's under a grand. It's gotten cheaper and cheaper.

Meanwhile, all that beautiful hifi kit in the magazines? STILL costs a fortune, and you still can't have it unless you are one of the one percent. And you never will! No normal person ever will. May as well read about yachts. You start getting into Ayre, Sonus Faber, Wilson, Krell, high end Linn or Naim - whatever - and you are looking at a price tag that is an irresponsible purchase even for a rich guy!

Walk into most hifi shops to buy a complete system, and leave with a bunch of low-end consumer garbage that's got more hot air in it than actual technology. Unless you are rich.

Some of us want more and most of us aren't rich. Sure, this leads a lot of people to make bad combinations and buy inappropriate kit. But this is why they do it.
GREAT answer ! Exactly - I wanted to add to this 2 things. Firstly - DavidF is absolutely right that the problem of the HiFi separates is just many customers buy wrong not suitable to each other components - absolutely true. Plus, one can buy stuff without any hints as the second hand from Ebay for example and will be disappointed with the lack of synergy.
Secondly - SpursGator - good Hi Fi is expensive, has always been and will be. The fact is - it is mega expensive because IT IS ON PURPOSE EXTREMELY OVERPRICED ! This is an artificial way of pumping up the circle of imposing the imaginery prices onto the HiFi gear - in fact 80% of all the prices have absolutely nothing to do with the production costs and the quality itself ! This is crazy indeed. This is the trap for the customers that should never ever pay too much for Hi Fi gear if they cannot afford it - because it is pointless. If you have a budget of let us say 2 grand - do not go over it ! There is absolutely no point. You can buy yourself a good Denon PMA 800NE , Denon DCD and Dali Oberon 1 for example. This will be a great system I presume. While the people can go easily up to 5k. If you are well off then ok...otherwise nope.
 
David, of course this is right. But the good stuff, from reputable dealers, is just out of reach. Who is this stuff really for? Who exactly can afford to walk into a quality hifi shop and "do it right?" Even a relatively modest system, if bought brand-new and all-at-once, easily runs into the thousands. Midrange systems can cost as much as a nice used car, and high-end speakers alone can creep into new Ford Focus territory, and worse.
Depends what you’re classing as “good stuff”. I’be found over the years that most people buying items tha are £1,000-5,000 (as a rough example), aren’t people who are minted, they’re “ordinary” folk like you and me. Just people with average jobs, average income, and either have to use credit or save in order to purchase. Many of those well off enough to buy a £20,000 CD player without batting an eyelid are few and far between, mainly because their interested lie elsewhere (more cars, another holiday home in Aspen, and other expensive hobbies which are probably more sociable).

And watch out if you decide to buy a component new. I bought a new Naim amp once, was thrilled about it, and the dealer was almost reluctant to sell it to me. He said that if I didn't buy Naim speaker cables I might void my warranty. And it "really wasn't designed" to be connected to a DAC (this was 2002, and I had a just-released Benchmark DAC1 - he did NOT approve). Eventually I talked him into accepting my 1200 quid or whatever it was, and I had a good amp for many years.

I was 28 and buying one component at a time. By 29 I had amassed an iMac, a really good amp, a fairly crappy, but serviceable, pair of Mission speakers, and an insanely good DAC. Four years and a promotion later, I had a pair of ProAc D18s and I suddenly had a pretty damn serious hifi.

Had I gone to Mr. Naim up his A---, my budget would have been what I paid for the DAC+Nait 5+Missions - something under 3 grand. So forget Naim gear. Probably looking at Rega or entry-level Arcam, with a big chunk sunk into a soon-to-be-redundant like-brand CD player sold at a 600% markup, and when I found those (new) D18s, I would have had nothing capable of driving them, and still wouldn't have a DAC! My system would sound well-integrated, but all my upgrades would be to keep it current, with the sound staying...entry level. But well-integrated.
Three figure mark ups don’t exist..

And that’s Naim dealers for you. The serious Naim dealers I mean. I’m not sure I’m quite understanding this - are you saying you’re glad you didn’t go the Naim route with that dealer? The one who was reluctant to sell it to you?

The business model of smallish companies building low-volume, high materials-cost boxes sold in showrooms may will be a good way for a customer to leave with a good system. But in the modern world, in which we have beautiful supercomputers in our pockets that have made practically every tool in the house obsolete, it is just TOO EXPENSIVE. We used to read about the coming technological miracles, and we have it in our pocket, and it's under a grand. It's gotten cheaper and cheaper.
But these pocket sized super computers as you put it are made in exploitative Chinese factories where employees fall asleep on the job and apparently suicide rates are quite high! Plus, there is no profit margin for the retailer, the only one making a high profit margin is the manufacturer when they sell the end product to retailers. It’s not really helping or preserving the industry long term, and is purely relying on the public to want the next best phone a year later. If this process slows or stops, the phone industry is screwed. But of course, there’s too much money at risk for that, so they’ll always keep the carrots dangling for the donkeys.

Meanwhile, all that beautiful hifi kit in the magazines? STILL costs a fortune, and you still can't have it unless you are one of the one percent. And you never will! No normal person ever will. May as well read about yachts. You start getting into Ayre, Sonus Faber, Wilson, Krell, high end Linn or Naim - whatever - and you are looking at a price tag that is an irresponsible purchase even for a rich guy!
I agree though, there is a lot of overpriced hifi out there. Some manufacturers keep their “high end image” by keeping prices artifically high. Personally, I don’t want to deal with that type of company, as I want to present value for money as much as possible.

Walk into most hifi shops to buy a complete system, and leave with a bunch of low-end consumer garbage that's got more hot air in it than actual technology. Unless you are rich.
That’s mainstream for you. Go to mainstream hifi dealers and you’ll be buying mainstream hifi promoted by mainstream hifi press. Sold to you by salesmen chasing a target. Who knows, maybe the salesman is trying to hit his target because he loves expensive watches, and feels the same about the watch industry as you do about the hifi industry...
 

shadders

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Nov 19, 2009
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Hi,
Just to add to the costs of hifi.

A well specified amplifier with single output transistors for the power stage, with a cascode for the VAS and triple output stage configuration, the transistors costed as a purchase of single values (not bulk) - the total for such an amplifier is £14.39.

Adding a power transformer and reservoir capacitors increases the cost considerably (also some cost for resistors and capacitors). If you purchase bulk, then it will reduce the excess cost considerably too.

Essentially, to obtain a very well specified amplifier, you do not need many components and you do not need a lot of money either. China is used to increase the profit margins.

If you use the inflation calculator for an amplifier from the 1980's or 1990's to present day, then the amplifiers costing £400 cost roughly the same today with inflation adjustment, yet many are now built in China. This is not about having to make in China, but about cost reduction to improve profits.

Regards,
Shadders.
 
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Jimboo

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So there you have it. Spurs and Stereodude completely failing to understand just why what they rail about happens.There is good sound but it comes at an unaffordable cost.
And that just isn't the case. Despite the fact that a dealer and seller of systems who has heard combination after combination with all sorts of cables and gizmos telling you if you take your time and audition and you use your ears you can be happy it won't happen.
High end (a sales term) is too dear. It's too dear because 800 - 1000 pound phones on 40 pound a month contracts owned by teenagers are a bargain. Combine your yearly sky and tidal costs that's another grand a year. A grand and a half plus spending money for a week in the sun . Maybe you have hundreds of CDs and records at a tenner each and twenty pound pop. You need a phone and we pretty much all get ripped off by contracts , you pay fifteen quid line rental and another 25 for the internet on top. Car deals are the best at ripping you off because once you buy the thing if you tried to sell it five minutes after doing the paperwork you would lose money. You save money into a bank account that gives you one per cent interest if your lucky and que up for the next sales to save money paying for your clobber with a credit card at 19 per cent payed off monthly costing you more than if you bought it pre sales with cash.
Hifi is over inflated and a profit machine. WTF isn't.
You love music ? Spend time listening to it ? Honestly believe (let's use naim as an example) that you need a specialist cable and connector , sesperate power supplies or a whole box with source and volume pot to keep a circuit board pure? Did you ever listen to it or demo it. Do you think nice hi hat there Ringo with your toe tapping or do you hand wring because maybe the cymbal is a bit splashy , is it the amp or my speakers ?
Components are cheap , hifi even high end is often tacky and 80% of it is the same on a marantz entry as one costing three times the price. What is required for the so called ultimate experience hi Res is the cheapest easiest found technology available on a market stall for twenty quid and a monthly contract. You spend your whole life buying unnecessary crap. If music and not system listening is your bag then spend time, audition , audition, audition. My Linn deck is forty years old and I bought it for one hundred pounds from a numpty that had bought it two months earlier and wanted to finance an upgrade. You can bet he bought it and then read a hi fi mags turntable special and he instantly felt he couldn't have spent enough.
Audition it right , save and buy it if you love it and you like me can have equipment that lasts forty years. Your phone and t.v and car and that must have winter coat will all have gone but the hi fi will still be there.
Stop reading magazines. They are adverts.
 

12th Monkey

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2015
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I'm not surprised you are angry if you are paying £40 p.m. for mobile phone calls and internet. Mine's around £8 for unlimited texts and more calls and mobile data than I have ever got anywhere near using - even during lockdown where my business usage has gone through the roof.
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
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I'm not surprised you are angry if you are paying £40 p.m. for mobile phone calls and internet. Mine's around £8 for unlimited texts and more calls and mobile data than I have ever got anywhere near using - even during lockdown where my business usage has gone through the roof.
...and this I can say is actually funny.
 

Jimboo

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2019
510
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1,270
I'm not surprised you are angry if you are paying £40 p.m. for mobile phone calls and internet. Mine's around £8 for unlimited texts and more calls and mobile data than I have ever got anywhere near using - even during lockdown where my business usage has gone through the roof.
Kind of proves my point about affordability and quality Monkey. That's what my son pays because he is a member of the apple cult.
 

SpursGator

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2012
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Great answers all around David - I've missed your insight into the industry. In general I agree with everything you wrote, especially re: China. And, to clarify on the "supercomputers in your pocket" point, my comment was intended as "in the eyes of the public," they have this miracle in their pockets but amps still cost a fortune. I understand perfectly why Apple can build this phone for their cost, and if I tried to build it (or pay people a Western-standard wage to build it), it would cost a LOT more. If Apple decided to build quality amps and could sell 200 million of them, they would be cheaper.

(Speaking of which, I haven't heard it, but apparently the combination of two of those funky Apple wireless speakers, in stereo mode, sounds ridiculously good)

I'm just pointing out that by doing it my own way, I spent around five grand over a few years, and ended up with Benchmark - Naim - ProAc. I couldn't have walked into any hifi shop in the world with five grand at that time and gotten a system anywhere near that good (and I would have had to go into debt to do it, as you say, since I didn't have it all at once). And this is before I started buying used equipment and building stuff.

Your point - that people often fail at trying to do what I did - still stands.


Three figure mark ups don’t exist..
Not for dealers, and not with some products. But high end CD players? Come on. The cosmetic adornments cost more than the electronics.

And that’s Naim dealers for you. The serious Naim dealers I mean. I’m not sure I’m quite understanding this - are you saying you’re glad you didn’t go the Naim route with that dealer? The one who was reluctant to sell it to you?
No - I wanted an amp. I had my DAC and had spent weeks ripping hundreds of CDs into iTunes at full size (remember this era?). I wasn't planning on buying serious speakers yet, and I sure as hell wasn't going to buy any Naim speaker cables (as if). I needed an amp and I knew which one I wanted. They were used to selling systems. I was building one. They were probably afraid I was going to fry it or something - DACs were not a household word in 2002.

So I'm saying, IF I had gone the "work with a dealer route" (not picking on Naim - I bought their amp!). I am not a typical customer, of course. I'm not saying that this route isn't better, just that at the level of sound that I am aspiring to (thanks to the industry's best efforts!), neither I nor many other people have that kind of money.

Put another way:

ME: I want to buy an Astin-Martin.

YOU: Look mate, if you buy an Astin-Martin, don't be a fool and buy a used one. Never know where it's been. Better to go to a car dealer with your budget, and let them guide you.

ME: You don't understand. I said I want to buy - as in ACTUALLY BUY - an Astin Martin!

Of course a new Toyota Supra is the better choice. RIght?


That’s mainstream for you. Go to mainstream hifi dealers and you’ll be buying mainstream hifi promoted by mainstream hifi press. Sold to you by salesmen chasing a target. Who knows, maybe the salesman is trying to hit his target because he loves expensive watches, and feels the same about the watch industry as you do about the hifi industry...
Yes, brilliant.
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
144
13
4,595
The thing with Hi Fi is - you buy a system costing 5k only to hear than another one costing 2k sounds as good as yours.
From my experience if you really need to and can afford to buy or invest in an amp and hear the great difference is to buy a new Accuphase. Here I can say - wow that makes a difference. Strangely - WHF has never reviewed any of the Accuphase amps and those are the class leader on the global markt. No doubt there are other great expensive sounding amps but no point to overspend your money. An amp like Accuphase E-270 should be enough for years to come if you really want something luxuriuos and great sounding. Still it does not sound as good as the radio to me.
 

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