Still no right answer to Hi Fi satisfactory sound

stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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I have been years in technology - IT, TVs , Audio, Mobiles etc. I need to say that only Audio out of this all is the most upsetting , frustrating piece of technology. I have never ever been so overly dissatisfied with any other technology gadgets as I have with Hi Fi. Constant changes, upgrades, positioning etc. for years - all to no avail. There is no today's technology that can really shine with audio without all this crap. I find no relevant DSP in stereo systems that could be satisfactory in a longer way as TVs , computers are etc. Pitty. Still small crappy radio sounds better than any other reasonably priced Hi Fi out there. When audio companies are still adamant and do not implement sound compression , expander and DSP in their products - it will bring nix. Acoustics is the killer for any audio without those features.

People change their speakers as they think they dramatically can change the sound and are the weakest link. No they are not. Many Hi Fi speakers convey at least 50Hz up to standard 20Khz - it is the lack of proper technology that drives them.
 
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12th Monkey

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Aug 31, 2015
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sound compression , expander and DSP in their products
It wouldn't be hifi if they did, at least to my way of thinking. I've never been as happy with any aspect of technology as I am with my hifi. No changes to OS to have to learn, no need for antivirus software or backing up, no spam, no adverts, no pop-ups, no clickbait - just wonderful and engaging music of my choice. What's not to love?
 

stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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Radio sounds better then any reasonably priced hifi?
Of course it does. No doubt about it. Just sitting next to my wife's small internet radio and whatever they throw in just sounds superb. Actually I have not heard any bad sound from a finely tuned radio. It is simply the radio sound / technology that should be implemented in every Hi Fi. This is the reason why so many people complain about sound features. Too bright, too bassy, no midrange, lack of detail etc. This is not the case with proper radio sound. Just switch any station right now - you can hear it is instantaneously upbeat, dynamic, expansed right ? Moving too. This is what I mean. The only pure Hi Fi sound sounds only good in 3 places - Cinema, Car and Studio - never at home.
 

Jez l

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May 1, 2020
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If you dont like it..why dont you sell it all then. Put money into something else that makes you happier
 
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People change their speakers as they think they dramatically can change the sound and are the weakest link. No they are not. Many Hi Fi speakers convey at least 50Hz up to standard 20Khz - it is the lack of proper technology that drives them.
Many people believe that loudspeakers make the biggest difference. It’s not necessarily true, it’s just that many people perceive a bigger difference when they compare loudspeakers than when they compare amplifiers. Loudspeakers use different types of drivers and technology to produce the same end result, so the potential difference between them is pretty big. Also, how they interact with the room is very important.

People hear less differences between two amplifiers, or two streamers, because they are solid state and the perceivable differences are much smaller. They’re still there though, you just have to listen a little more carefully to hear them. If you take extremes - maybe a Class D amplifier and a valve amplifier - you’ll get quite a big difference in presentation.

One issue is that people upgrade speakers when they see a great deal. Something like a £7,000 pair of speakers for £3,500 and decide to change their £2,000 speakers expecting huge changes with their £1,000 amplifier. Of course, there’ll be natural differences between the speakers based on the driver technology used and component quality, but if the user’s amplifier cannot properly drive and control the £7,000 loudspeakers, they’re not actually listening to £7,000’s worth of loudspeaker, and certainly not £5,000’s worth of improvement. Personally, I feel some people experience this rather than the “diminishing returns” theory.
 

Jimboo

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Oct 29, 2019
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I have been years in technology - IT, TVs , Audio, Mobiles etc. I need to say that only Audio out of this all is the most upsetting , frustrating piece of technology. I have never ever been so overly dissatisfied with any other technology gadgets as I have with Hi Fi. Constant changes, upgrades, positioning etc. for years - all to no avail. There is no today's technology that can really shine with audio without all this crap. I find no relevant DSP in stereo systems that could be satisfactory in a longer way as TVs , computers are etc. Pitty. Still small crappy radio sounds better than any other reasonably priced Hi Fi out there. When audio companies are still adamant and do not implement sound compression , expander and DSP in their products - it will bring nix. Acoustics is the killer for any audio without those features.

People change their speakers as they think they dramatically can change the sound and are the weakest link. No they are not. Many Hi Fi speakers convey at least 50Hz up to standard 20Khz - it is the lack of proper technology that drives
I believe , hell , I know the vast majority of hi-fi buffs are just never going to be happy or satisfied ever. Show them a 3 grand amplifier stand and write the guff that incredible-jaw dropping improvements from your 30 grand amp will magically be revealed and they will buy it. They buy special fuses for ffs ! They buy new stuff and read about new stuff believing that when the MK2 version comes out it will be better. They never talk about the music. It is all about graphs and ohms and Hz, stuff that means NADA to your ears. They are mad , spectacularly gullible and they all to a man,/ woman are hand wringing system listeners that cannot enjoy the music because there is a bit of tat or more money required to iron out the perceived blip in audial heaven. A pork pie short of a picnic.
However, your belief in radio sound as pure perfection places you in the flat earth / doomsday cult/ 5G is a virus machine sponsored by big pharma and government approved to control the masses and the David Icke knows man, he just knows brigade.
Despite the fact that you have spent years seeking a hi-fi with acceptable quality sound while on the road to Damascus you heard a radio and hey , game over. Yet, here you are on a hi-fi forum as a hi-fi buyer telling us it's a waste of time.
It's like you keep struggling to read a book because you cannot see the words and your glasses are on your head.
If radio sounds best for you cool. Not much point in engaging with people on a forum such as this is there? So , why not just buy a radio ? You will never get back into the circle of trust here ever again.Perhaps Stereo man isn't quite the right username. Tranny guy or radiorental, Rob-erts. That sort of thing.
 

Gray

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Nov 27, 2015
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....your belief in radio sound as pure perfection places you in the flat earth / doomsday cult/ 5G is a virus machine sponsored by big pharma and government approved to control the masses and the David Icke knows man, he just knows brigade.
Despite the fact that you have spent years seeking a hi-fi with acceptable quality sound while on the road to Damascus you heard a radio and hey , game over. Yet, here you are on a hi-fi forum as a hi-fi buyer telling us it's a waste of time.
It's like you keep struggling to read a book because you cannot see the words and your glasses are on your head..... You will never get back into the circle of trust here ever again.

Don't beat about the bush Jimboo, tell him what you think :LOL:
 

stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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I believe , hell , I know the vast majority of hi-fi buffs are just never going to be happy or satisfied ever. Show them a 3 grand amplifier stand and write the guff that incredible-jaw dropping improvements from your 30 grand amp will magically be revealed and they will buy it. They buy special fuses for ffs ! They buy new stuff and read about new stuff believing that when the MK2 version comes out it will be better. They never talk about the music. It is all about graphs and ohms and Hz, stuff that means NADA to your ears. They are mad , spectacularly gullible and they all to a man,/ woman are hand wringing system listeners that cannot enjoy the music because there is a bit of tat or more money required to iron out the perceived blip in audial heaven. A pork pie short of a picnic.
However, your belief in radio sound as pure perfection places you in the flat earth / doomsday cult/ 5G is a virus machine sponsored by big pharma and government approved to control the masses and the David Icke knows man, he just knows brigade.
Despite the fact that you have spent years seeking a hi-fi with acceptable quality sound while on the road to Damascus you heard a radio and hey , game over. Yet, here you are on a hi-fi forum as a hi-fi buyer telling us it's a waste of time.
It's like you keep struggling to read a book because you cannot see the words and your glasses are on your head.
If radio sounds best for you cool. Not much point in engaging with people on a forum such as this is there? So , why not just buy a radio ? You will never get back into the circle of trust here ever again.Perhaps Stereo man isn't quite the right username. Tranny guy or radiorental, Rob-erts. That sort of thing.
It seems you just don't quite get what I mean. So I'll put it this way, I hear a lviolin playing live by someone. The same song later on radio and Hi Fi. On a radio it has almost the same vivid impact. On Hi Fi it is stripped of all true emotion. You might argue with me and not believe it....the truth is - Radio gives you the most accurate emotional feel to the sound. Hi Fi on the other hand, has everything but this...I do not know what exactly constitues the specific radio sound - whether it is the compression tools or the wave to sound modulation that are both missing of course in Hi Fi. This is quite interesting that the problem affects only reproduction whereas the real time sound output ( live or amplified - like electric guitar playing ) sounds always very good, exactly like in case of radio. So reproduction is the gist of the problem. Radio seems somehow to bypass it. Interesting.
 

12th Monkey

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Aug 31, 2015
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hi-fi buffs are just never going to be happy or satisfied ever. …... They never talk about the music. It is all about graphs and ohms and Hz, stuff that means NADA to your ears. They are mad , spectacularly gullible and they all to a man,/ woman are hand wringing system listeners that cannot enjoy the music
Pardon my bluntness, but 'cobblers'.

So I'll put it this way, I hear a lviolin playing live by someone. The same song later on radio and Hi Fi. On a radio it has almost the same vivid impact. On Hi Fi it is stripped of all true emotion.
Erm, ditto!
 
A little portable radio won’t be giving you 50Hz-20kHz, and will be compressing dynamics and boosting quiet passages, to the point that music is virtually one single volume level. No natural “swelling” or dynamics of orchestras, the quiet parts are loud!

Hifi, mostly, endeavours to reproduce what the source material provides - sometimes adding its own unique ingredients - so are you really criticising the capture and treatment of live music? I’d say that maybe digital isn’t doing it for you, but the radio you listen to is probably DAB, and playing at some low bit rate too.

Have a listen to some Amphions - if you can’t hear any emotion coming from those, then there really is no hope for you.
 
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stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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A little portable radio won’t be giving you 50Hz-20kHz, and will be compressing dynamics and boosting quiet passages, to the point that music is virtually one single volume level. No natural “swelling” or dynamics of orchestras, the quiet parts are loud!

Hifi, mostly, endeavours to reproduce what the source material provides - sometimes adding its own unique ingredients - so are you really criticising the capture and treatment of live music? I’d say that maybe digital isn’t doing it for you, but the radio you listen to is probably DAB, and playing at some low bit rate too.

Have a listen to some Amphions - if you can’t hear any emotion coming from those, then there really is no hope for you.
David thanks for the Amphion recommendation I'll take a listen to it. NO - it is not that I oppose Hi Fi in general now. Of course it is a beautiful hobby - I love this hobby. I love playing with components etc. and I fully understand what you mean. It is the sound specification that has its own rules in a studio or at home. Of course music in a studio sounds exactly like it should, acoustics, great stuff etc. but at home we are playing by different rules. Sound should be moving. It is not about just amplification - I get more bass, or treble or surround etc. it is about the scale, resolution and emotional vividness. It does not really matter that a radio cannot cover those frequencies because it gives you a totally different thing instead. As you said first of all - when you listen to an instrument you pick up almost the whole scale of it. Radio by its compression and expansion covers also more sound spectrum than in case of Hi Fi. Hi Fi does not expose lower volume dynamic changes because it does not amplify it variably or randomly - it amplifies evenly and equally the whole spectrum levelling all up. Radio picks up quieter tones and you ears pick this much better up - just like live listening.

Hi Fi companies throw constantly away compression tools, expanders, loudness, treble adjustments in crossover in speakers etc. for the sake of a clean design and that should never happen. It should be exactly the opposite. Hi Fi should be pumped up with all the sound adjustment gadgets and DSP - to at least allow it to tailor it to acoustical needs.
 
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12th Monkey

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when you listen to an instrument you pick up almost the whole scale of it. Radio by its compression and expansion covers also more sound spectrum than in case of Hi Fi. Hi Fi does not expose lower volume dynamic changes because it does not amplify it variably or randomly - it amplifies evenly and equally the whole spectrum levelling all up.
I think you're tying yourself up in all kinds of logical knots here!
 
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Jimboo

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Oct 29, 2019
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It seems you just don't quite get what I mean. So I'll put it this way, I hear a lviolin playing live by someone. The same song later on radio and Hi Fi. On a radio it has almost the same vivid impact. On Hi Fi it is stripped of all true emotion. You might argue with me and not believe it....the truth is - Radio gives you the most accurate emotional feel to the sound. Hi Fi on the other hand, has everything but this...I do not know what exactly constitues the specific radio sound - whether it is the compression tools or the wave to sound modulation that are both missing of course in Hi Fi. This is quite interesting that the problem affects only reproduction whereas the real time sound output ( live or amplified - like electric guitar playing ) sounds always very good, exactly like in case of radio. So reproduction is the gist of the problem. Radio seems somehow to bypass it. Interesting.
Oh I get what you mean hifi is emotionally bankrupt, you like the sound of music to have no space, no sense of presence. Our ears and brain process things differently. The thing is in my forty plus years of listening what you seek has always been available in Woolworths or in the free saga mail order supplements in Sunday newspapers . Them all in one single inbuilt mini stereograms that look nice on granny's Welsh dresser.
 

Jimboo

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Oct 29, 2019
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Pardon my bluntness, but 'cobblers'.



Erm, ditto!
You see from almost anyone else on here I would shrug my shoulders at this cutting riposte. However, given your views on cables and the joys of blu tacking metal on things to improve sound you may be better served lurking at the back of the class rather than sticking your hand in the air.
 

stereoman

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Mar 22, 2016
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To Jimboo and 12th Monkey - maybe you find it funny - I see nothing funny or even badly sarcastic in your responses sometimes. Maybe others do or simply try better. Anyway I do not get offended in any way. Even a poor, crappy response is welcome.
 

12th Monkey

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Aug 31, 2015
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You see from almost anyone else on here I would shrug my shoulders at this cutting riposte. However, given your views on cables and the joys of blu tacking metal on things to improve sound you may be better served lurking at the back of the class rather than sticking your hand in the air.
If you think anyone into hifi by default cannot love music, which is what you have said, you are wrong. But as advised by someone else, I won't carry on feeding.
 

Jimboo

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Oct 29, 2019
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It's funny how little it is mentioned on hi-fi forums. You are right ,best not to feed. I do hope you keep your promises.
 

Jimboo

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Oct 29, 2019
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To Jimboo and 12th Monkey - maybe you find it funny - I see nothing funny or even badly sarcastic in your responses sometimes. Maybe others do or simply try better. Anyway I do not get offended in any way. Even a poor, crappy response is welcome.
It is just exasperation really. An argument/belief/point of view is what we all have to a degree. However you seem confused. I love hifi even though it sounds poor?

There was a guy on a music forum once who argued that nothing after 1989 in music was as good as pre that date because of the standard of Columbian cocaine. He , like you had thought about it and argued his case vehemently. It is still bull. I didn't mention the all in one music centre products for a cheap laugh. They are the products that play your formats and sound like radios. That isn't sarcasm. It is merely an observation. You (I assume) don't own one. Perhaps if Sony put a badge on one you would be on here in a flash.
 

SpursGator

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One can respond as a techie, and point out that what much of OP is saying is just not accurate - FM radio covers less of the frequency band than, say, a CD, and the compressed music that is broadcast over FM not only sounds worse on the same speaker, but is usually sexed up by the radio station to sound "cooler," with a smiley-faced eq setting. FM music makes me nuts, especially in the US where it is truly awful.

Or one can take the positive techie approach, and point out that radio speakers are usually full-range, with no crossover, and that some people prefer this presentation such that it is a whole sub-hobby within speaker building. There are whole websites devoted to building high-end speakers out of old radio drivers, because some people think they sound better, and whole companies that specialise in this weird world of beamy, high-efficiency, single-driver speakers (the best, and weirdest, one is Supravox, a company which is, of course, French). Some people just hate anything but a single-driver presentation - maybe OP is one of them.

But there are a few valid points about audiophiles buried in OP's bizarre series of posts. It's true that the "hobby," for people like me, has very little to do with music. It is, like many hobbies, an attempt to make something closer to perfect over time, by going full anorak on it. Great music is the reward that you get, not the hobby (and it's what gets you into the "hobby" in the first place). Listening to someone's low-fi system bugs me. Sometimes I can't enjoy the music and I admit that's bad. But it doesn't mean I don't love music!
 

12th Monkey

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Aug 31, 2015
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But there are a few valid points about audiophiles buried in OP's bizarre series of posts. It's true that the "hobby," for people like me, has very little to do with music. It is, like many hobbies, an attempt to make something closer to perfect over time, by going full anorak on it. Great music is the reward that you get, not the hobby (and it's what gets you into the "hobby" in the first place). Listening to someone's low-fi system bugs me. Sometimes I can't enjoy the music and I admit that's bad. But it doesn't mean I don't love music!
I have friends who love music every bit as much as I do, and who attend far more live music events than I do. But they listen to music at home on things that do it no justice whatsoever. I don't understand this myself, but clearly there are many ways of getting your music fix.

And clearly the desire to get close to perfection can take over with some people, so the kit becomes more important than the music it should be bringing to life. It's just plain wrong to assert that we are all like that though.
 

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