Oh well if you don’t like a debate....
ive read all the cable stuff on your blog which I thought lacks all credibility,
ive read all the cable stuff on your blog which I thought lacks all credibility,
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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
Blacksabbath25 said:
He cant start to explain it black sabbath if he can’t accept it happens, or accepts there is a possibility it might, because he hasn’t tried. He won’t try, because that is to accept he is wrongly could be in his eyes.
thats why you take any advice from such people on hi fi with a huge pinch of salt.
In my experience, many people who don’t accept it happens or could, have never tried. Together with dispelling it doesn’t work on incapable systems. The two biggest reasons you’ll get given bad advice on this subject.
it's easy to prove this - who can show me a great sounding system being powered off an Ikea strip and freeby mains leads ??
most of you know who I am by now??
It's easy the other way around?
most of you know who I am by now??
It's easy the other way around?
Let me make an admission to your side. There isn’t any good test data (or as you put it evidence).
but we know people come out of isotek demos impressed, and by credibility of extending that to tests of many more people, lots will probably do. In fact it would be a 2 percent failure rate on ellis’ isotek demo, by extrapolation, however reliable doing that is.
so if we took that as a basis of saying doing that isotek test for a 1000 people, and our results showed many people hearing changes, which could expect on 49 people, where does this leave us in explaining what’s going on.
Thats where I come at this from, credibility - because it’s very very credible. I’ve heard that change with my own ears, as have many others. Assuming you just come at it from asking for evidence, without hearing, where does that leave you in trying to understand it Pedro. Absolutely nowhere. Again you have failed before you’ve started.
but we know people come out of isotek demos impressed, and by credibility of extending that to tests of many more people, lots will probably do. In fact it would be a 2 percent failure rate on ellis’ isotek demo, by extrapolation, however reliable doing that is.
so if we took that as a basis of saying doing that isotek test for a 1000 people, and our results showed many people hearing changes, which could expect on 49 people, where does this leave us in explaining what’s going on.
Thats where I come at this from, credibility - because it’s very very credible. I’ve heard that change with my own ears, as have many others. Assuming you just come at it from asking for evidence, without hearing, where does that leave you in trying to understand it Pedro. Absolutely nowhere. Again you have failed before you’ve started.
BigH
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
I think you will find most recordings are produced using them, pro music studios are generally not into fancy hifi cables.
If it sounds different you can measure it.
that's irrelevant to what I posted even if interesting as people are always moaning about the quality of recordings.BigH said:
Since I have had good mains acoustics and freq response I haven't complained about a single recording.
anyway who can show me should be easy??
BigH said:
Though some big ones do use them....even knowing that, you can still make your case either way. ie. They got given them as a marketing gift; or they spent extra money on them as they make a worthwhile difference. *unknw*
BigH said:
imteresting as that’s a myth I think. When I bought my power cable and bar, the guy who sold them to me is a ex recording studio engineer. He told me he had zero knowledge of cabling used in the studio. He said this became knowledge when he later sold hi Fi, and then he got a view about cabling used and differences it can make. I bet it doesn’t matter, as they’ve probably got so many tools to adapt the sound and frequencies electronically etc. Most good hi Fi stuff don’t even have tone controls.
you can’t measure all aspects of music quality. Full stop. It would be like trying to measure all aspects of taste and smell. Impossible.
BigH
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Not irrelevant, I bet most studios have better sound systems than yours. As no one can measure the difference in sound between mains cables how can it sound better?
That’s a bit like saying to someone who has the money to pay for and want a posh meal, because nobody can measure the difference between a Gordon Ramsey meal compared to greasy donner kebab, we are better off getting a donner.
BigH said:
what makes you so sure of that?
I know I can show people examples of systems sounding great using upgraded mains products it's easy in fact to suggest loads.
Therefore it should be easy for someone to demonstrate it to me - a great sounding system using an Ikea strip and free by mains cables.
we can film and record it as well to share if person so wishes make a good video
BigH
Well-known member
anyone can go to the HiFi show live in Windsor in November this year I think.
Go in to the Sound Fowndations room and listen to a great sounding system being powered off Isotek and Furutech products. It's been seriously great the last 2 years
that's one example
The Bristol Clarity alliance best sound of the show room astin trew and air audio system with the reel to reel tape was being powered from a balanced mains product not sure the name of that one.
Go out to Munich room after room will be out there this year so will film them.
That's 2 off the top of my head + Munich
BigH demo me your system sounding great.
Go in to the Sound Fowndations room and listen to a great sounding system being powered off Isotek and Furutech products. It's been seriously great the last 2 years
that's one example
The Bristol Clarity alliance best sound of the show room astin trew and air audio system with the reel to reel tape was being powered from a balanced mains product not sure the name of that one.
Go out to Munich room after room will be out there this year so will film them.
That's 2 off the top of my head + Munich
BigH demo me your system sounding great.
QuestForThe13thNote said:
I’d only debate something with someone if they knew what they were talking about. Your posts are like a case study for disconfirmation bias.
That is not my blog.
Foo with measurable evidence; or marketing b/s - take your choice.
"A Null Test is a definitive way to confirm whether a difference exists between two copies of the same audio sample. Two sample-locked copies of the same audio file are played with one copy phase inverted. If the copies are identical, they will cancel, leaving only residual random noise.
The DUT (Device Under Test) is a Maselec MTC-1X Stereo Mastering Console. No inserts are engaged, just pure transfer between the input and output of the console. Only the power cord was changed. The power cords evaluated included the 18-gauge power cord that was supplied as original equipment, a 14-gauge power cord and a MusicCord-PRO.
Multiple audio samples were produced with each power cord and null tested to establish “baselines”. Then, samples made with different power cords were null tested. The results of the baseline tests for both power cords and of the comparison are plotted together.
Each pairing of “baseline” and “comparative” null test curves reveals significant differences between the baselines and comparavive results over the audible frequency range. In other words, when comparing for example files made when the stock 18-gauge power cord was connected the DUT versus the 14-gauge power cord, the results show significant information did not null out. This is true for all pairings. The null test differences range from 10dB to 20dB! These results confirm that each power cord has a distinct and undeniable impact upon the performance of the connected component. Still skeptical? Download the files and perform the null test yourself."
https://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm
"A Null Test is a definitive way to confirm whether a difference exists between two copies of the same audio sample. Two sample-locked copies of the same audio file are played with one copy phase inverted. If the copies are identical, they will cancel, leaving only residual random noise.
The DUT (Device Under Test) is a Maselec MTC-1X Stereo Mastering Console. No inserts are engaged, just pure transfer between the input and output of the console. Only the power cord was changed. The power cords evaluated included the 18-gauge power cord that was supplied as original equipment, a 14-gauge power cord and a MusicCord-PRO.
Multiple audio samples were produced with each power cord and null tested to establish “baselines”. Then, samples made with different power cords were null tested. The results of the baseline tests for both power cords and of the comparison are plotted together.
Each pairing of “baseline” and “comparative” null test curves reveals significant differences between the baselines and comparavive results over the audible frequency range. In other words, when comparing for example files made when the stock 18-gauge power cord was connected the DUT versus the 14-gauge power cord, the results show significant information did not null out. This is true for all pairings. The null test differences range from 10dB to 20dB! These results confirm that each power cord has a distinct and undeniable impact upon the performance of the connected component. Still skeptical? Download the files and perform the null test yourself."
https://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm
Just spent the last hour reading this so now I'll have my say and be finished.
First regards the mains conditioner test.
The demo is flawed as they play a length of music then stop switch over to the mains conditioner then play the same passage of music. The salesman then says listen how much better it sounds
The audience has been fooled into thinking it must be better. Subtle differences are almost impossible to notice or remember in a sighted test. If the audience had no clue which was on or off I bet the results would be different.
If they never played any music but instead turned the volume up to full and demonstrated transformer hum or something similar then plugged in the conditioner and the noise disappeared, then I'd say that's a better test. But playing music - come now people.
Also if these conditioners do change the sound like bass response or clarity on the mids/highs etc then a simple measurement of the frequency response would easily show up a measurable difference as proof but this has never happend.
It's my belief that people who are into this sort of product are over obsessed with hifi and have gone down a path of no return and simply could not relax and enjoy the music without all this snake oil products.
And shame on the people that market/sell and feed off the paranoia of these victim's.
Quest: I've never read so much nonsense/reasoning in one thread. Next thing you'll be looking into power cables/conditioners with built in graphic equaliser/tone controls and built in dynamic EQ for late night listening.
And we all get it that your very proud with your hifi but we don't need constant reminding on every post you make -
but thanks for the comedy.
Ellis: I'd welcome a video recording of your system playing music a/b with and without the power conditioners. I'm sure you can do that.
I can't believe for one moment that power conditioners has conquered the loudness wars.
Last point regards quality of a system.
Saying only a quality system can benefit is rediculas imo.
If anything the cheap system should have far greater benefits as it's not built to as good quality as the more exotic/higher end product. So if you believe this your admitting you spent a fortune on crap.
Andy/old fart
Keep up the good work and thanks for bringing sense back to the forum.
And btw I've had Lindsay's ev sentries plugged into an IKEA 4 socket lead plugged into a home made 25m extension lead and the sound was pristine.
In fact we had 2 active speakers, 2 amps with 4 speakers and a cd player working simultaneously off 3 wall plugs.
First regards the mains conditioner test.
The demo is flawed as they play a length of music then stop switch over to the mains conditioner then play the same passage of music. The salesman then says listen how much better it sounds
The audience has been fooled into thinking it must be better. Subtle differences are almost impossible to notice or remember in a sighted test. If the audience had no clue which was on or off I bet the results would be different.
If they never played any music but instead turned the volume up to full and demonstrated transformer hum or something similar then plugged in the conditioner and the noise disappeared, then I'd say that's a better test. But playing music - come now people.
Also if these conditioners do change the sound like bass response or clarity on the mids/highs etc then a simple measurement of the frequency response would easily show up a measurable difference as proof but this has never happend.
It's my belief that people who are into this sort of product are over obsessed with hifi and have gone down a path of no return and simply could not relax and enjoy the music without all this snake oil products.
And shame on the people that market/sell and feed off the paranoia of these victim's.
Quest: I've never read so much nonsense/reasoning in one thread. Next thing you'll be looking into power cables/conditioners with built in graphic equaliser/tone controls and built in dynamic EQ for late night listening.
And we all get it that your very proud with your hifi but we don't need constant reminding on every post you make -
but thanks for the comedy.
Ellis: I'd welcome a video recording of your system playing music a/b with and without the power conditioners. I'm sure you can do that.
I can't believe for one moment that power conditioners has conquered the loudness wars.
Last point regards quality of a system.
Saying only a quality system can benefit is rediculas imo.
If anything the cheap system should have far greater benefits as it's not built to as good quality as the more exotic/higher end product. So if you believe this your admitting you spent a fortune on crap.
Andy/old fart
Keep up the good work and thanks for bringing sense back to the forum.
And btw I've had Lindsay's ev sentries plugged into an IKEA 4 socket lead plugged into a home made 25m extension lead and the sound was pristine.
In fact we had 2 active speakers, 2 amps with 4 speakers and a cd player working simultaneously off 3 wall plugs.
Your wrong there actually making assumptions on practice which means you have never attended one of these demos, basing a judgement on a stereo type, its wrong Andy and unfair to assume it.
The demo went like this - bit of chat and explanation - then demonstration of how much noise is on the mains - a lot but not as much as in some places - even saying the mains here is pretty good . Problem is proven to exist though.
Then this is what happens when you use this product - most noise gone, then this product noise has now nearly all gone - most people sitting there dont even understand what this is but they show it anyway.
Then explanation of this product with its strengths and weakness - then this product and its strengths ands weakness etc.
Then explanation of what going to do - play song - silence change plugs play song again then question - what did you think?
Answers from people listening as already posted but noone said it didnt make a difference - no one, not even the sceptics that were in the room - also no leading statements, no trying to trick people with a volume change, no selling on the day even - the only advice that was given - go to a dealer and try at home in familiar surroundings with familiar music that was it.
What they did show was that filtered mains product dont reduce dynamics in any way
The demo went like this - bit of chat and explanation - then demonstration of how much noise is on the mains - a lot but not as much as in some places - even saying the mains here is pretty good . Problem is proven to exist though.
Then this is what happens when you use this product - most noise gone, then this product noise has now nearly all gone - most people sitting there dont even understand what this is but they show it anyway.
Then explanation of this product with its strengths and weakness - then this product and its strengths ands weakness etc.
Then explanation of what going to do - play song - silence change plugs play song again then question - what did you think?
Answers from people listening as already posted but noone said it didnt make a difference - no one, not even the sceptics that were in the room - also no leading statements, no trying to trick people with a volume change, no selling on the day even - the only advice that was given - go to a dealer and try at home in familiar surroundings with familiar music that was it.
What they did show was that filtered mains product dont reduce dynamics in any way
Also I am telling you I can play any song on my system at any volume - there has been none so far I cant play - I was after some bad recording suggestions the other week to test this out - noone came up with any?
Since Lindsay came here I have things 5x maybe even 10x as good as that day - not even joking or underestimating
For example of a torture test track I can think of Muse Reapers becuase at stages it gets extemely intensely layered and I have had it go to like a hard mush here at those stages in the song. It doesnt do that anymore - it doesnt harden up and you can just about make out where the layers are so finely laid on each other in volume.
I bet that track sounds good on vinyl? I dont know many others thats why I was asking for some suggestions I want to test them
Since Lindsay came here I have things 5x maybe even 10x as good as that day - not even joking or underestimating
For example of a torture test track I can think of Muse Reapers becuase at stages it gets extemely intensely layered and I have had it go to like a hard mush here at those stages in the song. It doesnt do that anymore - it doesnt harden up and you can just about make out where the layers are so finely laid on each other in volume.
I bet that track sounds good on vinyl? I dont know many others thats why I was asking for some suggestions I want to test them
daveh75
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
But you're so full of **** it'll be a surprise to no one that you'd try and boast by quantifying the unquantifiable...
I am sorry you think that - I was making a reference there for Lindsay because when he came here there was points he rightly made about things that werent right with my systems performance. He didnt listen to as much as I would have liked but he was right on the points he made.
I took them on board and have worked on them to fix them.
Then it just so happens I have been using some outstanding products right now and that is also the reason for the sound quality improvement, some of which is a nice surpirse - its not BS its the truth - I can demonstrate it no problems - happy to do it. I dont do BS I am happy to show it and only asked to be shown things in return I dont think that is unreasonable.
I took them on board and have worked on them to fix them.
Then it just so happens I have been using some outstanding products right now and that is also the reason for the sound quality improvement, some of which is a nice surpirse - its not BS its the truth - I can demonstrate it no problems - happy to do it. I dont do BS I am happy to show it and only asked to be shown things in return I dont think that is unreasonable.
my View is that the kit of andrewjvt is probably not good enough to hear differences of the isotek blocks Ellis, so another one probably in the camp of not thinking that these devices work simply because his kit probably can’t reveal their benefits. He wouldn’t be the first.
In the isotek demo it would be very easy to choose speakers and amps that make little if no differences, and you’d get a load of people just like andrewjvt.
In the isotek demo it would be very easy to choose speakers and amps that make little if no differences, and you’d get a load of people just like andrewjvt.
Having read this thread I am firstly mainly confused and secondly concerned that anyone who thinks they will reach audio nirvana through a piece of wire will end up believing anything in order to justify the endless expense. Spend your money on good quality source material and most, even modest system will give much pleasure. I am sorry but I just don't buy into this stuff and this thread and all the options etc etc has my head spinning.
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