Speakers with rolled-off or softer treble

[Goat]

I am still struggling with treble...or rather, spending far too much time focusing on it when listening to music. Try as I might, I just can't shake the feeling that it intrudes too much and detracts from the overall enjoyment. The times I enjoy listening to my system the most, are on the treble-shy tracks, the mid-range heavy ones. This really shows the strengths (to my ears) of the arcam a19 and kef r100 speakers, which beautifully place and articulate the various strands of the mids and upper bass tones.

And don't get me wrong, the Kef R100's are still a significant improvement over the Kef Q300's and the Epos Epic 2 speakers I used to have. The transition from mids to highs is much smoother, and the overall quality of the treble is better too. But still...it grates, after months of trying to 'live with them'. I also appreciate that there are much much brighter and less refined speakers out there, but then I guess it is all relative.

Perhaps I am just oversensitive to it, but it has certainly got me wondering whether I am simply listening to the wrong speakers. Maybe more modern, revealing ones just aren't for me, even if they are technically 'better' in many ways.

So...I was wondering if anyone could recommend some speakers, prefferably bookshelves, which posess more rolled off treble, but still have a lovely midrange (and preferably taut bass, as that is another annoyance with the R100's. If I can't find anything suitable, I think I am just going to sell the whole system - I never had any of these problems when I owned a cheap micro system for years!!

Thanks

 

[CnoEvil]

If the Arcam and R100s are too bright, you could well be a candidate for a tube amp or Sugden A21 (possibly second hand).

You could also try Sonus Faber Toys.

Is there anything about your room that could be causing problems.......bare laminate floors, large reflective areas of glass / tiles, or being sparsely furnished (with little soft furnishings).

 

[BigH]

Could be your room, has it got carpet, curtains, soft furnishing?

What cables are you using?

I have heard a few comments about the Arcam AI9 being a bit harsh.

What sort of music do you play?

 

[Goat]

Nah, room couldn't be much softer furnished.

Cables are Audio-Slip copper ones, so again, not renowned for brightness at all.

Sonus Faber...very expensive, but any particular model you'd recommend?

 

[matt49]

I think Cno may be on to something. The problem may be in the amp.

As for Sonus faber, I have the Venere 1.5s which are a very relaxed listen. They're around £1K. The stands (just bought a pair today!) are £350, but they work well on bookshleves as they're front ported.

 

[BigH]

Nah, room couldn't be much softer furnished.

Cables are Audio-Slip copper ones, so again, not renowned for brightness at all.

Sonus Faber...very expensive, but any particular model you'd recommend?

OK that rules some of the possibilities. Can you demo some speakers along with the Kef R100, I did not find the Kefs bright, Epos was forward treble and so were the Dyn X12s, also try the Kef R100s with other amps like Creek 50A, has less bass than the Arcam A19 and is pretty refined, Rega Brio R maybe another option

 

[CnoEvil]

Nah, room couldn't be much softer furnished.

Cables are Audio-Slip copper ones, so again, not renowned for brightness at all.

Sonus Faber...very expensive, but any particular model you'd recommend?

You could try these: http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=14104&gclid=CI6u6vzLiroCFbGWtAodVRsA0A

 

[Goat]

Thanks - the toys look tiny! I would be more minded to investigate the Venere 1.5's...

Matt49 - what other speakers did you demo the Venere's against? Was the treble noticeably 'easier' to listen to? How does the bass perform?

I'm not sure if the Arcam is the problem, I remember demoing it against the rega brio and audiolab 8000 and noticing barely any difference between them.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks - the toys look tiny! I would be more minded to investigate the Venere 1.5's... Matt49 - what other speakers did you demo the Venere's against? Was the treble noticeably 'easier' to listen to? How does the bass perform? I'm not sure if the Arcam is the problem, I remember demoing it against the rega brio and audiolab 8000 and noticing barely any difference between them.

I would have suggested the Veneres, but I believe they are voiced with the more modern SF sound, which I think is a little livelier and more forward......but do go and listen, as they may be what you're after.

 

[jiggyjoe]

I think the kef speakers have a pretty smooth balance already. Quote from a review from soundandvision mag lab report.

"speakers have a mild downward tilt in the tonal balance, so they may sound a little soft in the treble — or they may sound appealingly smooth and forgiving, depending on your taste."

Cant see the arcam being at fault as arcam amps are generally quite smooth, although I have not heard the a19 myself.

Not sure if it was you but did we not go down this path with your old epos speakers and the use of resistors on the tweeter binding posts??

I Think you would be better of buying an amplifier with tone controls so you can turn the treble down a bit, and when you get to 40 like me you can leave it flat and it sounds great .

 

[matt49]

what other speakers did you demo the Venere's against? Was the treble noticeably 'easier' to listen to? How does the bass perform?

I did a direct comparison in my room with the PMC twenty.21s. The PMCs seemed very lively and airy but rather fatiguing in the treble, and they didn't produce the bass I like.

I also did dealer demos of some Dynaudios (DM 2/6, Excite X12, and Focus 110A) and AVI ADM9RS. Of these the Dyn X12s worked best for me.

I find the treble of the Veneres very sweet. I know there are other speakers that have more crystalline brilliance in the treble, more breathy upper mids, and tighter, more tuneful bass. The SFs have all of this in good measure, but somehow they manage to achieve a balance I don't find with other brands, and they make acoustic instruments sound wonderfully tuneful, which is important for me, as I mainly listen to classical music.

But I've become a big SF fan. (I also have the Cremona Auditor Ms.) So do take this with a pinch of salt ...

I hope that helps.

:cheers:

Matt

EDITED formatting

 

[CnoEvil]

But I've become a big SF fan. (I also have the Cremona Auditor Ms.) So do take this with a pinch of salt ...

Would you agree that SF have voiced the Venere range with a "slightly" more modern presentation, as compared to the older ranges like your Auditor Ms?

 

[matt49]

Would you agree that SF have voiced the Venere range with a "slightly" more modern presentation, as compared to the older ranges like your Auditor Ms?

I'm sure there's some truth in that -- "slightly" seems about right. Of course the biggest difference between the two models is the quality, not the voicing. The Cremonas just do everything better.

:cheers:

Matt

 

[drummerman]

http://shop.xtz.se/bild-ljud/hogtalare/stativ/satellit/XTZ-99.26-Matt-Black?stat=1

http://shop.xtz.se/hogtalare/satellitehgtalare/xtz-99.26-mkii-walnut

Read good things about this one

regards

 

[Goat]

I think the kef speakers have a pretty smooth balance already. Quote from a review from soundandvision mag lab report.

"speakers have a mild downward tilt in the tonal balance, so they may sound a little soft in the treble — or they may sound appealingly smooth and forgiving, depending on your taste."

Cant see the arcam being at fault as arcam amps are generally quite smooth, although I have not heard the a19 myself.

Not sure if it was you but did we not go down this path with your old epos speakers and the use of resistors on the tweeter binding posts??

I Think you would be better of buying an amplifier with tone controls so you can turn the treble down a bit, and when you get to 40 like me you can leave it flat and it sounds great .

That was me indeed. I guess I should revisit the resister idea however (to be honest, I'd forgotten about it since trying it with the Epos').

To clarify - does using resisters mess with the way the mids cross into the treble? That is one of the strengths of the R100's, which ideally I wouldn't want to mess with. It's not clear whether it's the volume of the treble (in comparison to the rest of the frequency band) that is the problem, or whether it's just too extened for my tastes. Resisters merely alter the volume, is that right?

 

[SiUK]

Just to add another angle, sensitivity to high frequencies can also be caused by stuff other than your room and hi-fi. Medical stuff for example can produce a similar effect. Stress, viral infections, age, etc. can all contribute in various ways. If you are a relatively young, chilled out individual, unstressed, with no ongoing medical issues then totally ignore this and carry on with proper hi-fi talk

I mention it only because some years ago, in my early 40s, I suffered vestibular damage from medication used to treat a particularly nasty viral infection which left me with tinnitus and a condition called hyperacusis (sensitivity to everyday sounds/specific sounds). But of all the ranges I was especially sensitive to higher frequencies were the worst - the hf squeal of the CRT TV was unbearable, and at night I could hear the high pitched whine from an external fan on a building quite a way up the road for example, but no one else could hear either.

Anyhoo, I wasn't able to listen to my hi-fi much for quite a while because the high frequencies were just too piercing and it felt almost painful with some music. After a year or so of treatement (basically 'retraining' my brain) I was able to listen to music again, but even now higher freqencies can actually still seem more prominent than they used to.

So back to hi-fi solutions...

 

[chebby]

Regrettably your A19 has 'lost' the tone controls that the A18 offered. A bit of tweak on the treble control would probably have solved this issue.

 

[chebby]

Just been skipping through your Marantz NA7004 instructions and found a function call 'M-DAX'. It is there to help make up for deficiencies in compressed formats.

However, it tries to compensate for 'rolled off treble'...

"M-DAX (Marantz Dynamic Audio Expander) processing to 'optimise' data-reduced audio sources such as MP3 and AAC files. This is said to compensate for the high-frequency roll-off in such files, and has a three-position selector." (From TechRadar review.)

Have you checked this setting to ensure it is switched off?

I don't know if you aleady have it switched off (or whether you play a lot of compressed content) but it could be worth checking just to make sure.

 

[chebby]

Another finding of Malcolm Steward's Techradar review was to do with the difference in performance between the NA7004's analogue outputs and digital output...

"Listening to the unit through its analogue connection gives results that often seem warm and gentle in character, although rather inconsistent, varying from one album to another. Some appear shouty and unrefined by contrast. Bass, though, seems stodgy and overblown.

The cure for these ills is bypassing the analogue outputs and feeding a digital signal straight to a DAC. The presentation immediately improves dramatically – the NA7004 becoming far more even-handed in the way it presents tracks and is more consistently balanced across all its inputs"

It might be a cheaper option (than to keep swapping speakers) to try it's digital output into a seperate DAC.

Maybe the problem is really with the NA7004's analogue output and not the speakers.

The bass problems described above (stodgy, overblown) also seem to tally with your comment about the R100's bass in your original post ("and preferably taut bass, as that is another annoyance with the R100's"). And maybe the problem with the treble is not that it needs 'rolling off' but that it needs to be better.

Can your Arcam dealer lend you an irDAC maybe?

 

[Frank Harvey]

If Chebby's posts don't help, try the Spendor A3 or A5. If they're not smooth enough, look out for an older pair of S5e. When we got those in, I had to walk up to the speaker and put my ear to the tweeter to see if it was working...

 

[Goat]

Chebby - I know what you're saying, and I had considered getting an Arcam Irdac....however, I also know that many people say the difference between DACS (in this case, the NA7004 one and the Arcam Irdac), or CD players etc is so miniscule, that any difference is pretty much inaudible.

Furthermore, would feeding the NA7004 into a separate DAC even work? I.e. people also say that clock speeds need to match, or some other technical speak. If they do not, then the external DAC would essentially be bypassed in any event. But I have no idea, as I'm technologically stupid.

 

[Overdose]

I am still struggling with treble...or rather, spending far too much time focusing on it when listening to music. Try as I might, I just can't shake the feeling that it intrudes too much and detracts from the overall enjoyment. The times I enjoy listening to my system the most, are on the treble-shy tracks, the mid-range heavy ones. This really shows the strengths (to my ears) of the arcam a19 and kef r100 speakers, which beautifully place and articulate the various strands of the mids and upper bass tones.

And don't get me wrong, the Kef R100's are still a significant improvement over the Kef Q300's and the Epos Epic 2 speakers I used to have. The transition from mids to highs is much smoother, and the overall quality of the treble is better too. But still...it grates, after months of trying to 'live with them'. I also appreciate that there are much much brighter and less refined speakers out there, but then I guess it is all relative.

Perhaps I am just oversensitive to it, but it has certainly got me wondering whether I am simply listening to the wrong speakers. Maybe more modern, revealing ones just aren't for me, even if they are technically 'better' in many ways.

So...I was wondering if anyone could recommend some speakers, prefferably bookshelves, which posess more rolled off treble, but still have a lovely midrange (and preferably taut bass, as that is another annoyance with the R100's. If I can't find anything suitable, I think I am just going to sell the whole system - I never had any of these problems when I owned a cheap micro system for years!!

Thanks

Have you had your hearing tested recently? It might be worth a check up to see if your ears are fine.

That aside, what about simply turning down the treble on the amp? (Edit: I see that your amp has no tone controls)

If these result in no improvement or highlighting of a problem and you feel that you need to spend some money, for taught bass and less harsh treble, my recommendation would be to try a pair of active speakers. These can be driven by the preamp section of your Arcam.

I would be inclined to stick the AVI DM5s, Quested S6 and S7 and Neumann KH120 on your hit list.

 

[BigH]

Goat I just came across your earlier post back in March which I link here for others to read which may help them assess your problem: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/my-thoughts-on-the-arcam-a19-epos-epic-2-combination?page=2

So it seems you were having problems with the Kef Q300s? but then switched to Arcam A19 and Epos Epics and everything was fine for a while but the you started having treble problems, then you moved house and changed the speakers to Kef R100s and everything seemed fine but now we are back to square 1? It could be verious things, could be the amp, Ive heard a few people say its bright top end on certain music, it could be the metal tweeters causing listening fatigue, it could be you listening too closely, I know once you have heard something it is hard to not notice it.

My concern is you have changed items and been happy but then hit problems later on, so doing demos is that going to help? My experience of Epos is the treble is a bit forward, noticed that on jazz cymbals, I did not find that on the Kefs. Maybe tone controls may help?

 

[jiggyjoe]

If i was you I would buy my self a used graphic equalizer off ebay, they have quite a few for around £50.

You can connect it up to your arcam amp using the tape loop, so you can switch it in or out of circuit depending on the music you are playing.

>use it to gently roll off the high treble, see how it sounds to you.

Remember to only use the cut and not the boost on the equalizer, otherwise you can quickly overdrive your ampeven at low volumes.

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. IMO. The Active route is not the way to go if you want a smooth sound with a rolled off treble. I also think a system should innately have the sound that you're looking for, without having to resort to measures to tailor it.......but it's only my opinion and there is more than one way to skin a cat.