Speakers with rolled-off or softer treble

[Goat]

I should probably experiment with the source in first instance then. However, would adding an external DAC to the Marantz's digital out constitute a completely 'new source'? I.e. would it entirely bypass any influence of the Marantz at all? Or would some residual influence still remain?

 

[manicm]

Goat, that's difficult to say, especially since the WHF review thought USB playback was better than network playback. So maybe the Marantz's DAC isn't the fundamental issue. Also, to put it through an external DAC would rather defeat its purpose - note at launch this was a 700 quid device - so I don't think they skimped there,

My idea to test with a CD player was to reduce unnecessary obfuscation to determine whether your amp/speaker combo is the culprit. If you're going to get an external DAC to test - then don't play it through the Marantz. Rather make sure it's got USB, and then test with a laptop if you have/can acquire one.

 

[CnoEvil]

The R100s and R300s can both sound lumpy if the amp doesn't keep good control over them, or they are too close to the wall.....the outer bung greatly helps though. IME. The R100s are bassier than the Tannoys, which have a slighter cleaner presentation, with a less golden mid-range. I also think the Tannoys are a little fussier with amp matching, as they are more likely to show up bright electronics.

I'd used them with the Onkyo TX8050, and then I think they went through a Linn DS player afterwards. Neither made them sound good. I've used the Tannoys with three or four amps now and "fussy" isn't a word I'd use to describe them. Positioning, however is important in as much as they don't do well close to a rear wall. A couple of feet out and they shine.

Bass, as I have mentioned umpteen times, is not an issue in the right room. In mine, where they fire across the width of the room, they are excellent. Neither light nor boomy. Get the balance right - as with any setup really - and they'll work a treat. Which they do, fortunately for me!

It's probably me that's fussy, as any hint of brightness puts me off. I've heard the Tannoys sounding clean and dynamic without brightness, and I've heard them sound a little edgy for my taste, when turned up. Their bass has always been in proportion and controlled.....it's the R Series that have a bass that can get overblown, if care is not taken.

 

[the record spot]

It's probably me that's fussy, as any hint of brightness puts me off. I've heard the Tannoys sounding clean and dynamic without brightness, and I've heard them sound a little edgy for my taste, when turned up. Their bass has always been in proportion and controlled.....it's the R Series that have a bass that can get overblown, if care is not taken.

Yes, sorry, I should've been clearer. I know the R100s are a bit keen in the lower registers, I guess the comment I read most often about the Tannoys is they lack bass. My preference is for clean and accurate and less for the bloomy and boomy. Sorry if it seemed a tad aggressive in my reply!

 

[CnoEvil]

I should probably experiment with the source in first instance then. However, would adding an external DAC to the Marantz's digital out constitute a completely 'new source'? I.e. would it entirely bypass any influence of the Marantz at all? Or would some residual influence still remain?

This is one that you will have try for yourself....Fwiw. I think the transport influences the sound, but not all agree. The reason I suggested the Sneaky DS, is IMO it sounds better than anything else at it's price.....I just reckon it's worth a shot, as it would be a simple solution.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Definitely try to have a listen to a valve Amp.

This may be your path to Audio Heaven.

It was for me.

 

[Goat]

Thank you for all your thoughts, I shall investigate each solution in course and let you know how I get on.

Last thing – how about the PMC twenty series?? By all accounts very fast and agile (something the R100’s are not!). Are they typically ‘brighter’ in presentation though? Very expensive, but I’m willing to investigate them further. Of course it may be that they become a bit disproportionate to the modestly priced arcam A19.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for all your thoughts, I shall investigate each solution in course and let you know how I get on.

Last thing – how about the PMC twenty series?? By all accounts very fast and agile (something the R100’s are not!). Are they typically ‘brighter’ in presentation though? Very expensive, but I’m willing to investigate them further. Of course it may be that they become a bit disproportionate to the modestly priced arcam A19.

I haven't heard the Twenty series, but I suspect they will sound "clean and lean" compared to the R100s.......FWIW. I found the LS50s sounded much cleaner than the R100s, as well as more agile, so might be a happy medium.

 

[Goat]

I actually owned the LS50's for a few days, after trading up the R100's, but quickly returned them for the R100's. I found the LS50's to be too forward and harsh - the upper mid and lower treble in particular seemed to have quite a nasty spike and the treble itself had a poorer, more edgy quality. In my opinion. However, the bass was definitely cleaner.

Might demo the PMC twenties alongside some R100's at Sevenoaks - they stock both and should also have the Arcam a19 to run alongside.

 

[BigH]

I actually owned the LS50's for a few days, after trading up the R100's, but quickly returned them for the R100's. I found the LS50's to be too forward and harsh - the upper mid and lower treble in particular seemed to have quite a nasty spike and the treble itself had a poorer, more edgy quality. In my opinion. However, the bass was definitely cleaner.

Might demo the PMC twenties alongside some R100's at Sevenoaks - they stock both and should also have the Arcam a19 to run alongside.

I did not find that with the LS50s, so it maybe worth checking that your amp. is not the problem, also do you only have one source the Marantz 7004?

Amps you could try the Roksan Kandy and/or Musical Fid. M3i.

 

[CnoEvil]

I actually owned the LS50's for a few days, after trading up the R100's, but quickly returned them for the R100's. I found the LS50's to be too forward and harsh - the upper mid and lower treble in particular seemed to have quite a nasty spike and the treble itself had a poorer, more edgy quality. In my opinion. However, the bass was definitely cleaner.

Might demo the PMC twenties alongside some R100's at Sevenoaks - they stock both and should also have the Arcam a19 to run alongside.

I did not find that with the LS50s, so it maybe worth checking that your amp. is not the problem, also do you only have one source the Marantz 7004?

Amps you could try the Roksan Kandy and/or Musical Fid. M3i.

I would agree, but the trouble with this game is the amount of variables, not least the taste of the person listening.

I'm very averse to brightness, coarseness or harshness and found them much more forgiving than I was expecting.

 

[CnoEvil]

The source can make the difference if you are close to what you're after, but no cigar.

The ATC will be tighter and cleaner, but also a warts and all presentation.

As has been mentioned, imo you need to be looking at Spendor, Harbeth and Sonus Faber.

Fwiw. I found the LS 50s to have a much more natural presentation than the R100s, with a bass that was tighter and more controlled.

 

[manicm]

Goat, I really think your Marantz may be the culprit. What rips are you using to play through it - i.e. format, bit-rate etc? What specific music are you listening to? Are you streaming over a network or using the USB port?

 

[Goat]

Well I'm using the USB port predominantly, fed by a hard drive with Flac files. Alternatively, I sometimes use the digital-in with a PS3 playing CD's. Or, listen to the DAB radio built in quite a lot. Never tried it over the network.

But considering how subtle people say sources change the sound, I have my doubts how much difference changing the source will make.

 

[CnoEvil]

But considering how subtle people say sources change the sound, I have my doubts how much difference changing the source will make.

IMO. It is "more subtle" than amps or speakers, but it can still be enough to tip the whole system into brightness.

 

[manicm]

Ok, try this, connect your PS3 (I'm assuming it has an analogue RCA out) directly to the Arcam, and spin a CD. Does it still sound harsh?

 

[FennerMachine]

I've never heard Arcam described as bright or harsh sounding.

You have tried 3 or so different speakers. Others have replied about Kefs being well balance and not bright sounding.

With your electronics that leaves the source.

I have personally found that the source can make a significant difference, but that could be because I have had CD players at the most extreme of the extremes of differences!

 

[Goat]

Good idea. I've got an old Toshiba DVD player at parents house, will grab that tonight and hook it up straight to the amp, see how that compares in timbre to running via the Marantz.

If the above yeilds little results, I'll probably just learn to accept things as they are. End of the day, I'm on a modest wage and have spent a small fortune on Hi Fi this year (nearly £2k taking into account items bought and sold on at a loss). To get significant improvements/differences would likely involve a significant further investment. It's not like the R100's are 'bad' - I'm just being overly picky and idealistic I suspect.

And the R100's have useful terminals, a knob you can twist, meaning I can leave a resister in place and simply turn the knob to switch between the two settings.

Will let you know how the dvd player compares...

 

[radiorog]

Hi goat.i totally recommend dynaudio dm7s.i have them.plenty of bass.and very articulate and detailed mid and treble.i love them.never fatiguing in any way yet.i also wanted speakers with not too high a treble after xoming from mmetal domed mordant short speakers.the dyns are super quick too and produce so much detail. i have a rega brio r.....and i also auditioned the a19 when i was biying...which was straight out od the box so not muchwarm in time...but (and i really dont want to slate your amp really) i found it instanly unagreeable to ky ears.i found it way too high pitched with no bass at all virtually and not sounding sweet.now...i tested it with my dyns which are 4ohm speakers and whf state in their reviee that the a 19 needs easy to drive speakers...so 8ohm.so actually i therefore retract my recommensation for dynaudio speakers with your amp. i would possibly tho be open to the amp being the issue????? i could be and i hope i am wrong cause nobody wants to buy gear and then find it isnt right for them. good luck tho...and i hope you find a solution.......

 

[Goat]

Ok, I hooked up my very old, very crap Toshiba DVD player with analogue connection straight to my amp. I also connected it via optical, through through the marantz streamer and then into the amp. I then proceeded to put in one of my brightest CD's - Groove Armada's Greatest Hits.

Usefully, I could easily switch between the two inputs while listening, without having to pause the music at all. So there was no memory loss apparant when making the comparison.

And the differences? Subtle. When listening through the Marantz, there was just a touch more presence to the music. It was ever so slightly more full sounding, less recessed, slightly more bass and (maybe) a hint more treble...but I may be confusing treble for detail here. By comparison, the analogue straight from the dvd player was slightly more congested and distant. But I am talking TINY differences here. If I didn't have the benefit of switching between the two sources on the fly, I'm not sure I would have noticed any difference at all, such is the fallibility of hearing memory.

Rather worrying really, how little difference there is between a 12 year old, very cheap dvd player and a £700 (at launch) streamer with dedicated hi fi DAC in it. Perhaps something like an Arcam Irdac will have a similar step up in quality again over the Marantz, putting that bit more air and detail into the mix. I would hope so. But it seems like a vain hope, especially in light of the above.

 

[TrevC]

If you like rolled off treble get a pair of Leak Mini-Sandwich. I got rid of mine for that very reason.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

You might want to try the Toy Towers, tee. Warm, rich sound. Also Spendor as mentioned.

 

[Goat]

Thanks, I shall look into those.

Also looking at the Sonus Fabre Venere 1.5's. All reviews point to a relaxing sound and slightly dark (but smooth and detailed) treble. Whether my arcam is up to the job is another matter of course.

Hmm weird, just read a couple more reviews of the venere's, specifically the 2.5's and those mention a surprisingly bright sound. Reviews are therefore conflicting massively.

 

[Crocodile]

I know you've already discounted the room but if you haven't already, try listening very close to the speakers. This should largely eliminate any room effects.

 

[Goat]

Hmm, can't find any opinions on the Sonus faber Toys anywhere! Any links? Thanks.