speakers and amp advice - £10-20k budget for rock and dance music

[Frank Harvey]

hi

looking for advice on speakers and amps to audition for listening to mainly rock music and dance (house/techno), but also all other genres of music.

5X5m living room.

using digital source so only after amp and speakers with budget £10-20k. Any suggestions on what brands sound best for rock/dance music in this price range (used or new)?

many thanks

A

I haven't read through the thread as I haven't had time, but if it were my own money - and I do listen to rock/dance, as well as other electronic music and alternative rock - I wouldn't be looking to definitively split the budget any specific way. Some speakers need big power, some don't. Although, most good speakers do respond well to better amplification...

As I say, my money would still go on something like the KEF Reference 205/2 and then your personal choice of amplification. Why? The 205/2's, when driven properly, they keep their character intact, tight, and don't 'change'. As long as the accompanying amplification has the same attributes, the system will sound the same at low or high volumes. They're effortless, in a way that you can turn them up and you needn't worry about the volume you want them to deal with - they just take it. I like the 205/2's with the Bryston 4Bsst2 stereo power amp or 7Bsst2 monoblock power amps, Cyrus Mono X200 monoblock power amps, or Chord SPM1050 or SPM1200 stereo power amps. I like these power amps because they don't change the 205/2's characteristics, and don't change their own at higher volumes either. These combinations deliver what I expect from the likes of Rage Against The Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Boards Of Canada, Nine inch Nails, Foo Fighters, Nirvana, Angus & Julia Stone, Elysian Fields, Queens Of The Stone Age etc etc - all the stuff that I consider demo material, and that should sound good. They also deliver with material that doesn't sound so good. Yes, they'll reveal shortcomings in recordings, but if they didn't, I'd be disappointed.

The 205/2's just do everything right in regard to what I want them to do, and that is all anyone can ask. You firstly need to find a speaker that you like the sound of, then make sure you drive them properly in order to make the investment worthwhile. Of course, going the active route removes the need to find sufficient amplification, but also removes choice, to a certain extent.

Based on your stated budget, get a demo of some speakers in the £5k-10k price point, then look at amplification.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Also, agree with several other posters – you don’t need to spend £10,000.

You don't need to spend more than £100k on a house (and you don't need more than one). You don't need to spend more than £10k on a car (and again, you don't need more than one). You don't need to spend more than £200 on an amp. You don't need to spend more than £10 on a watch (or even have a collection). You don't need to spend more than £5 on a t-shirt. But people do, for different reasons. There are benefits, they're just not necessarily benefits that appeal to everyone.

Everyone has their own priorities. With some it is their house and its contents, with others it is their car/car collection. Others may spend a fortune on golfing, holidays, a clothes collection, a watch collection, or just weekends out p*****g it up a wall. For me, my hobbies are music and movies, so my money will go on hardware and software for my chosen priorities. I see many people spending thousands of pounds on holidays. Unless the holiday involves visiting historic sites, I don't see the point in spending thousands of pounds to sit around a burn on a beach and getting p****d. A holiday is for a week or two, and you'll have some photos to prove you were there. Movies and music are for life, and are continuously enjoyable.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Indeed, there is some wild talk on this thread about a £2K system sounding "better than any £20K systems". Very easy claims to make, but when pressed they generally turn out to be based on very limited experience.

Take any well matched £2k system or good quality active system and compare it to £20k's worth of badly matched system and the claims made are possible, but if the purchasers of such awful sounding £20k systems had visited a quality dealer in the first place, they wouldn't be thinking of changing their systems. Someone mentioned an expensive B&W and Meridian system earlier - definitely wouldn't be my first choice!

 

[Macspur]

Also, agree with several other posters – you don’t need to spend £10,000.

You don't need to spend more than £100k on a house (and you don't need more than one). You don't need to spend more than £10k on a car (and again, you don't need more than one). You don't need to spend more than £200 on an amp. You don't need to spend more than £10 on a watch (or even have a collection). You don't need to spend more than £5 on a t-shirt. But people do, for different reasons. There are benefits, they're just not necessarily benefits that appeal to everyone.

Everyone has their own priorities. With some it is their house and its contents, with others it is their car/car collection. Others may spend a fortune on golfing, holidays, a clothes collection, a watch collection, or just weekends out p*****g it up a wall. For me, my hobbies are music and movies, so my money will go on hardware and software for my chosen priorities. I see many people spending thousands of pounds on holidays. Unless the holiday involves visiting historic sites, I don't see the point in spending thousands of pounds to sit around a burn on a beach and getting p****d. A holiday is for a week or two, and you'll have some photos to prove you were there. Movies and music are for life, and are continuously enjoyable.

Well said that man! but I do like to squeeze some sun and a beach in if poss.

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[FennerMachine]

More good points from more posters! Especially David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi.

If I had a budget of £20,000 to spend on Hi-Fi and I new it would not affect me financially I could spend that much. I might not spend it all depending on the system I ended up liking.

Probably the Spendor SP100R2 anther poster suggested with suitable CD player and amplifier.

That would be the best part £15,000 right there.

That's likely what I would get but the OP needs to do lots of demoing.

 

[CnoEvil]

Take any well matched £2k system or good quality active system and compare it to £20k's worth of badly matched system and the claims made are possible, but if the purchasers of such awful sounding £20k systems had visited a quality dealer in the first place, they wouldn't be thinking of changing their systems.

Often, the first experience people have of a very expensive system is at a show, where the set up and room are far from ideal.......and because the sound is poor, they assume that all highend systems are a waste of money.

A few weeks ago I heard Kef Blades bi-amped with Linn amplification and a Linn Klimax DS as a source...and I can say that (imo) no system under £20k would get close, let alone one at £2k.

 

[letsavit2]

personally I would spend 5k on a nice system then the other 15k on drink, drugs and dirty women. 20k on hi fi is a waste.

 

[CnoEvil]

Indeed, there is some wild talk on this thread about a £2K system sounding "better than any £20K systems".

Really? I think I need a new browser, this one seems to be leaving posts out.

Matt's comment is quite understandable, as there are several statements insinuating this; such as:

"For around £2k you can have the AVI ADM9RS + ADM sub (no step amp required). They could be all you ever need".

"If it is about enjoying your music rather more than the kudos[??] of having spent £10k or more, then buy a pair of AVI ADM 9RS active speakers + dedicated AVI sub for just £2k".

"For a budget of £5000-10,000 (or less!) you can buy a system that has 99% of the performance of the best £20,000+ systems. Very often with many of the urber expensive HiFi systems you just end up getting expensive bling which doesn't actually sound better than much cheaper systems and many of them even sound worse".

"I disagree. There's nothing wrong with the quality of ..........Spotify Premium with any system. Even one costing £20,000."

The strong impression that the above statements give is:

- The likelihood is that £2k (on AVI) will fill all needs...which is possible, but unlikely if the OP heard a good £15k system. Though if it makes him evaluate VFM, it has merit.

- Spending £20k is about vanity and showing off, rather than about the music.....so anything above £2k (on AVI) is wasted

- Spending possibly less than £5k, will give you, as near as dammit, the performance of the very best systems, costing even in excess of £20k (which are little more than expensive trinkets).

- Source and bit rate is of little importance, so spending money here is wasted.

If there is another conclusion from these opinions, other than expensive systems are a complete waste of money, that £2k - £5k (probably nearer £2k) gives 99% (who can hear 1% anyway) of the very best systems, and anyone spending £10k-£20k has more money than sense and are simply looking for kudos......I would like to hear it.

Once again, it is not my intention to judge the people who made the above statements, as i absolutely believe in their right to hold this opinion; but to challenge your assertion that there isn't a very strong implication that a simple £2k (or a little more) Active system, will equal, or in many cases better a £20k+ one. I am not even commenting on whether this assertion is true or not, only that the above quotes bear out that Matt wasn't so far off the mark.

 

[CnoEvil]

personally I would spend 5k on a nice system then the other 15k on drink, drugs and dirty women. 20k on hi fi is a waste.

I like your style, but it would have even less WAF than hifi......and that's difficult enough. :shifty:

 

[plastic penguin]

hi

looking for advice on speakers and amps to audition for listening to mainly rock music and dance (house/techno), but also all other genres of music.

5X5m living room.

using digital source so only after amp and speakers with budget £10-20k. Any suggestions on what brands sound best for rock/dance music in this price range (used or new)?

many thanks

A

If you are genuine and you have up to 20k to blow on a system, what the f*** are you doing on here. This is a great for mere mortals, but with 20k floating I'd just go to as many dealers as possible*

* In fact if I had that sort of money, I wouldn't spend it all on AV or hi-fi.

Hi-fi components are dead products. By that I mean that most components are outmoded quicker than rat up a drainpipe. Makers that don't can't afford to because they have such crummy distribution they can't generate the revenue. Spend just a fraction of that 20k on hi-fi and blow the rest on starting your own dating agency.

 

[steve_1979]

"For a budget of £5000-10,000 (or less!) you can buy a system that has 99% of the performance of the best £20,000+ systems. Very often with many of the urber expensive HiFi systems you just end up getting expensive bling which doesn't actually sound better than much cheaper systems and many of them even sound worse".

"I disagree. There's nothing wrong with the quality of ..........Spotify Premium with any system. Even one costing £20,000."

These two statements were mine.

First of all the Genelec 8260A speakers that I recommended are probably some of the most accurate and competent speakers available (although not nessessarly the most enjoyible depending on your taste). They may cost only £6000 but I bet that they'd give any of the other sugestions in this thread more than a run for their money when it comes to low distortion, detail, accuracy, frequency range, SPL, stereo imaging and all in one complete package.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with the quality of Spotify Premium (provided you have the 'High quality streaming' checkbox ticked in the 'Preferences' menu). Spotify Premium streams Ogg Vorbis audio files at 320kbps. Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis. The two files will sound identical to each other and I guarantee that if you ABX them in Foobar then you will never be able to tell them apart.

 

[floyd droid]

If you are genuine and you have up to 20k to blow on a system, what the f*** are you doing on here.

Nice one PP. I was going to post the same question early in the thread yesterday. Glad I didnt tbh as its been entertaining reading the 'predictable' posts that followed. Had my diplomatic head on here.......

Also, agree with several other posters – you don’t need to spend £10,000.

Aye , but coming from folk who 'maybe' havnt even lived with a 3k system let alone10k/20k , well they would say that wouldnt they if you think about it.

You just gotta love peeps with a 1500* quid set up advising the OP which way to go ,lol.

* just a figure I pulled out of the air , but you get my drift.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you are genuine and you have up to 20k to blow on a system, what the f*** are you doing on here. This is a great for mere mortals, but with 20k floating I'd just go to as many dealers as possible* * In fact if I had that sort of money, I wouldn't spend it all on AV or hi-fi. Hi-fi components are dead products. By that I mean that most components are outmoded quicker than rat up a drainpipe. Makers that don't can't afford to because they have such crummy distribution they can't generate the revenue. Spend just a fraction of that 20k on hi-fi and blow the rest on starting your own dating agency.

I think that's a bit harsh.

- If he was blowing £20k on a car, there would be little argument.....and look at the (dead) depreciation on that.....but if you are into cars and driving, it gives pleasure.

- For some, £20k is blown on drink, ciggies and restaurants, over 3 or 4 years......we all have different priorities.

- Before walking into a dealer with a £20k budget, it makes sense to have a little knowledge, and a hifi forum is a reasonable place to start.....if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there; and with £20k to spend, it could be a very expensive one.

- There is a good bank of knowledge on here, with people having systems between £10k-£20k.

- It's AV that goes out of date, almost before you've bought it. 2 channel is much more stable, and that's what the OP is looking for.

I seem to be argumentative today, so I'd pay little heed. :doh:

 

[CnoEvil]

If you are genuine and you have up to 20k to blow on a system, what the f*** are you doing on here.

Nice one PP. I was going to post the same question early in the thread yesterday. Glad I didnt tbh as its been entertaining reading the 'predictable' posts that followed. Had my diplomatic head on here.......

oke: So that people like you can bring some knowledge and sense the thread. :shifty:

 

[matt49]

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with the quality of Spotify Premium (provided you have the 'High quality streaming' checkbox ticked in the 'Preferences' menu). Spotify Premium streams Ogg Vorbis audio files at 320kbps. Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis. The two files will sound identical to each other and I guarantee that if you ABX them in Foobar then you will never be able to tell them apart.

What are you backing your guarantee with, Steve?

Like other lossy codecs, Ogg Vorbis suffers from compression artefacts such as pre-echo, which have been found to be audible by trained listeners.

:cheers:

Matt

 

[steve_1979]

You just gotta love peeps with a 1500* quid set up advising the OP which way to go ,lol.

With all due respect to you floyd, that seems like a bit of a narrow view point.

Just because some people can't afford to spend £20,000 themselves it doesn't mean that they haven't had experience with more expensive systems. There's nothing wrong with sharing these experiences and making recommendations based on them.

 

[busb]

Ignore what sounds very much like sour grapes! However, with that much to spend married with what sounds like not a great deal of knowledge - I'd suggest a totally different route altogether - blow only 5k (or less), get a better idea of what you want & what's available - don't rush to blow your entire budget - yet!
We've all made poor purchases here but most with less to loose.
Whatever decision you make - enjoy the experience!

 

[Macspur]

At the end of the day if the guy wants to spend upwards of 20K on a quality HiFi who are we to discourage him.... he's obviously had a rough time and wants to treat himself to something he's going to enjoy for years to come.

It is possible to spend a lot of dosh on a nice looking set up that sounds terrific too.

Good luck to the OP, enjoy!

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[steve_1979]

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with the quality of Spotify Premium (provided you have the 'High quality streaming' checkbox ticked in the 'Preferences' menu). Spotify Premium streams Ogg Vorbis audio files at 320kbps. Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis. The two files will sound identical to each other and I guarantee that if you ABX them in Foobar then you will never be able to tell them apart.

What are you backing your guarantee with, Steve?

Like other lossy codecs, Ogg Vorbis suffers from compression artefacts such as pre-echo, which have been found to be audible by trained listeners.

:cheers:

Matt

At lower bit rates Ogg Vorbis sound quality can be a issue but not at 320kbps.Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis then compare them using the ABX test in Foobar.

(Apologies to the OP if this is starting to go a bit of topic.)

 

[altruistic.lemon]

At lower bit rates Ogg Vorbis sound quality can be a issue but not at 320kbps.Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis then compare them using the ABX test in Foobar.

(Apologies to the OP if this is starting to go a bit of topic.)

Well, I can hear a difference in my system. Should I book in for a op to get my hearing degraded??

 

[steve_1979]

At lower bit rates Ogg Vorbis sound quality can be a issue but not at 320kbps.Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis then compare them using the ABX test in Foobar.

(Apologies to the OP if this is starting to go a bit of topic.)

Well, I can hear a difference in my system. Should I book in for a op to get my hearing degraded??

Did you rip both the lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis files from the same CD yourself (thus ensuring that they are both from the same master version)?

Did you compare them both in Foobar using the ABX plugin?

 

[plastic penguin]

If you are genuine and you have up to 20k to blow on a system, what the f*** are you doing on here. This is a great for mere mortals, but with 20k floating I'd just go to as many dealers as possible* * In fact if I had that sort of money, I wouldn't spend it all on AV or hi-fi. Hi-fi components are dead products. By that I mean that most components are outmoded quicker than rat up a drainpipe. Makers that don't can't afford to because they have such crummy distribution they can't generate the revenue. Spend just a fraction of that 20k on hi-fi and blow the rest on starting your own dating agency.

I think that's a bit harsh.

- If he was blowing £20k on a car, there would be little argument.....and look at the (dead) depreciation on that.....but if you are into cars and driving, it gives pleasure.

- For some, £20k is blown on drink, ciggies and restaurants, over 3 or 4 years......we all have different priorities.

- Before walking into a dealer with a £20k budget, it makes sense to have a little knowledge, and a hifi forum is a reasonable place to start.....if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there; and with £20k to spend, it could be a very expensive one.

- There is a good bank of knowledge on here, with people having systems between £10k-£20k.

- It's AV that goes out of date, almost before you've bought it. 2 channel is much more stable, and that's what the OP is looking for.

I seem to be argumentative today, so I'd pay little heed. :doh:

My overriding point is with that sort of budget I would want to go into dealerships with a (very) open mind. Everyone on here has their own preference. No-way would I encourage, and indeed why I haven't (and won't) recommend any brands/models.

Absolutely nothing to do with sour grapes. If it is, let them ripen first.

 

[CnoEvil]

These two statements were mine.

First of all the Genelec 8260A speakers that I recommended are probably some of the most accurate and competent speakers available (although not nessessarly the most enjoyible depending on your taste). They may cost only £6000 but I bet that they'd give any of the other sugestions in this thread more than a run for their money when it comes to low distortion, detail, accuracy, frequency range, SPL, stereo imaging and all in one complete package.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with the quality of Spotify Premium (provided you have the 'High quality streaming' checkbox ticked in the 'Preferences' menu). Spotify Premium streams Ogg Vorbis audio files at 320kbps. Try ripping an audio CD to both lossless FLAC and 320kbps Ogg Vorbis. The two files will sound identical to each other and I guarantee that if you ABX them in Foobar then you will never be able to tell them apart.

Like I said, it is not my intention to argue with your POV.

Of course there is nothing "wrong" with 320kbps per se, it's just my experience that as it's presented, there is a difference compared with 16 bit, which is increasingly highlighted as the system gets more expensive.

The same is true with 24 vs 16 bit, though I take your point on board that it could be down to different mastering.....but it's all academic, as you can't get the "24 bit mastering" on the 16 bit version, so if you want the difference the better mastering may give, you have to pay through the nose for the "Studio Master".

 

[lindsayt]

David raises a good point about you not having to spend more than x on a y.

Personally, I think that some things are worth spending a lot of money on, some things aren't and some things are in the middle.

For example I think that it makes a huge amount of sense to buy the right house costing far in excess on £100k. You are more likely to have a nicer house to live in by having a larger budget and in the long term, property prices are only going to rise - barring some worlwide catastrophe, such as nuclear war or a bubonic plague like epidemic.

Cars, on the other hand sufffer from huge depreciation, unless they are sought after classics. Sought after classics don't tend to be ideal vehicles for doing lots of miles due to poorer reliability plus higher maintenance and servicing costs and fuel costs. So far cars it makes sense to buy them for less than £10k - often much less. £2k will get you a reliable, comfortable, safe German or Swedish work-horse car. £8k will get you a 400 horsepower high performance car.

A £10 watch will tell the time, and look just as nice as a far more expensive one. Makes no sense to me to pay more.

A £5 cotton T shirt will look just as good and be just as comfortable and last just as long as a more expensive one. Why pay more?

Holidays. Spending more will get you to more exotic locations and will buy you better comfort in your travel. It makes sense to buy as expensive a holiday as you can comfortably afford. Although I'd rather go on 3 budget-ish holidays than 1 posh one. If I had the money I'd go on 3 posh ones.

Which brings us onto hi-fi. Based on what I've heard so far: Spending more than £600 on the right digital source makes no sense, as spending more than this doesn't get you noticeably better sound quality. Spending more than £1000 on the right solid state power amplification doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. Spending more than about £3000 on the right valve power amp doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. For speakers it depends on your taste in music and speakers. Somewhere in the region of £800 to £7000, depending on your tastes, should be enough to buy the right speakers for you.

There are many people that spend far more than they logically have to on their consumer goods. That's either through ignorance, or because buying things is such an emotional part of our lives.

 

[CnoEvil]

My overriding point is with that sort of budget I would want to go into dealerships with a (very) open mind. Everyone on here has their own preference. No-way would I encourage, and indeed why I haven't (and won't) recommend any brands/models.

Absolutely nothing to do with sour grapes. If it is, let them ripen first.

Of course you don't have sour grapes, and I hope I haven't given that impression.

IMO. It is wise to glean a certain amount of knowledge before you get to the dealer stage, or you may end up with what he thinks is best. A basic understanding of what you are talking about should gain you a little respect and get you taken more seriously.

There are dealers who will give good advice and steer you right, but that can't necessarily be taken for granted. Coming from his existing system, almost everything will sound impressive.......but as I've said before, something is only impressive until you hear better.

Having a list of what to try (if you don't know it exists, you won't know to ask for it), and having a basic understanding of Active vs Passive, the different Types and Classes of amps, and the different ways speakers can be designed (IB/Ported/TL), as well as the importance of set up and room acoustics................is a good place to start.