speakers and amp advice - £10-20k budget for rock and dance music

[John Duncan]

I don't honestly think knowledge is the main criteria, regardless of budget. How many times over the years have you and I, amongst others, stated "trust your own ears", so on and so forth.

If you're using the car analogy, the same applies. If I had taken any notice of reviews I wouldn't have my Alfa. Yet it has, arguably, been one of the best cars I've owned or even driven. And this has been the crux of my reasoning.

I'm the first to admit I don't have very good technical knowledge, nonetheless I absolutely do know THE SOUND I like - even more pertinent, the sound I DON'T...

Clearly the OP only streams or uses digital sources (think). IMHO, it is about parking his backside in various dealerships and finding the combination that does it for him.

The OP just needs to be strong with dealers and tell them his final budget; room size and acoustics and what type of set-up that suits his needs (integrated, pre/power combo, old fashioned passive kit or active). Also don't pay too much attention to reviews or star ratings, just let the lugholes do the deciding.

That's all very well, but unless you ask somebody all you;ve got is what's on the high street and what you can glean from magazines, which might mean the OP will miss other, less visible options (such as an active setup) or will end up in the local Sony shop.

 

[plastic penguin]

I don't honestly think knowledge is the main criteria, regardless of budget. How many times over the years have you and I, amongst others, stated "trust your own ears", so on and so forth.

If you're using the car analogy, the same applies. If I had taken any notice of reviews I wouldn't have my Alfa. Yet it has, arguably, been one of the best cars I've owned or even driven. And this has been the crux of my reasoning.

I'm the first to admit I don't have very good technical knowledge, nonetheless I absolutely do know THE SOUND I like - even more pertinent, the sound I DON'T...

Clearly the OP only streams or uses digital sources (think). IMHO, it is about parking his backside in various dealerships and finding the combination that does it for him.

The OP just needs to be strong with dealers and tell them his final budget; room size and acoustics and what type of set-up that suits his needs (integrated, pre/power combo, old fashioned passive kit or active). Also don't pay too much attention to reviews or star ratings, just let the lugholes do the deciding.

That's all very well, but unless you ask somebody all you;ve got is what's on the high street and what you can glean from magazines, which might mean the OP will miss other, less visible options (such as an active setup) or will end up in the local Sony shop.

I do get that John.

The problem I have is he's received so many different recommendations throughout this thread it could be counter productive. Where does he start? And are there local dealers to cover half the recommendations? This is one occasion where I will not even hint at a option. With that budget, he'll need to spend a morning or afternoon with a dealer and take it on from there.

Sometimes less info is definitely more. IMHO this is that case.

 

[Overdose]

Which brings us onto hi-fi. Based on what I've heard so far: Spending more than £600 on the right digital source makes no sense, as spending more than this doesn't get you noticeably better sound quality. Spending more than £1000 on the right solid state power amplification doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. Spending more than about £3000 on the right valve power amp doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. For speakers it depends on your taste in music and speakers. Somewhere in the region of £800 to £7000, depending on your tastes, should be enough to buy the right speakers for you.

There are many people that spend far more than they logically have to on their consumer goods. That's either through ignorance, or because buying things is such an emotional part of our lives.

I don't normally agree with you, but on this I do.

There is a ceiling price for any product to be competent, beyond this you pay for things such as status, aesthetics and individuality. Performance benefits cease to exist above this point and there is little reason to spend any more unless you want the extra kudos and satisfaction of spending more. Nothing wrong with that of course, but the core purpose of hifi is high fidelity reproduction of the media to hand, it is not to be an acceptably looking piece of furniture, attractive centre piece for discussion or coffee table (in the case of subs).

Rating products according to price and particularly expecting less expensive hifi to perform less well than much more expensive kit, is erroneous, particularly as we are talking about equipment costing thousands of pounds. I can entirely understand why someone would want to spend huge sums of money and can also understand hifi retailers supporting this, but lets not pretend it all about sound quality, that price point was passed just after the cost of a decent brand new run around car.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The problem I have is he's received so many different recommendations throughout this thread it could be counter productive. Where does he start? And are there local dealers to cover half the recommendations? This is one occasion where I will not even hint at a option. With that budget, he'll need to spend a morning or afternoon with a dealer and take it on from there.

The lack of availability of certain brands in his area will narrow the options down naturally anyway, so having more options initially is a good thing, as the OP can see which of the given options are open to him.

 

[chebby]

I would like to think that £10K - £20K would get me a system for life (or at least a bl###y long time).

Unless the OP can easily afford to regularly 'box swap' at this level, then I would suggest sticking to kit from companies who have a good chance of still being around in 10 year's time or longer. (For repairs, servicing, upgrades etc.)

We could all flick through a high-end hi-fi mag from 10 or more years ago and make a pretty big list of 'boutique' brands that no longer exist and can therefore no longer support their product.

The disappearance of the company also affects the resale value of the kit.

10 and 20 year-old Naim / Quad / B&O / Linn / Sugden equipment (for a few instances) can still all be serviced and repaired by their makers.

Just a thought.

 

[John Duncan]

Performance benefits cease to exist above this point

That is, of course, a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Which brings us onto hi-fi. Based on what I've heard so far: Spending more than £600 on the right digital source makes no sense, as spending more than this doesn't get you noticeably better sound quality. Spending more than £1000 on the right solid state power amplification doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. Spending more than about £3000 on the right valve power amp doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. For speakers it depends on your taste in music and speakers. Somewhere in the region of £800 to £7000, depending on your tastes, should be enough to buy the right speakers for you.

As I have previously mentioned, I'm beginning to think the oft stated 'law of diminishing returns' isn't as relevant as it used to be. I think when people state (not saying this is the case with yourself) that spending more than X amount brings no benefits, it can sometimes be a misinformed opinion. Many people base these beliefs on what they hear at shows (one of the few places for the masses to hear high end hi-fi), which is one of the worst places to form any opinions on any equipment. Others may have heard a badly matched system or two at a dealer or show and done the same. Others just follow others and repeat, regardless. You could argue that better quality equipment is more neutral and more accurate, and to that you could say that many people may not necessarily like 'accurate', as most people seem to like a bit of warmth or character (hence the number of speaker manufacturers in this tiny industry).

I would generally agree with the last point, but not on the others.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Performance benefits cease to exist above this point

That is, of course, a ridiculous thing to say.

Agreed. And not from a retailer point of view, but from a personal point of view.

 

[floyd droid]

I would like to think that £10K - £20K would get me a system for life (or at least a bl###y long time).

Which is what the OP is after.

basically just want to buy a setup that i will not have to ever change until im an oap!

Agree with you regarding 'boutique' brands. Some of them dont last twelve months let alone ten years.

Nice hard wired valve amp with top dollar transformers and no expense spared guts. That will do the trick , repairable anytime anywhere.

 

[relocated]

(Apologies again to the OP for the thread drift. )

You never know.......he might just spend his money on a second home in France!

Only trouble is, apparently you don't need more than one house. :?

 

[Sir Lemon]

Reading this thread, one could easily get the impression of a forum wide fixation on a hand full of products from a hand full of brands. Which could be understandable for most other similar threads (purchase advice) with low/er budgets on hand (the value champions argument can be raised). But here it's a little disturbing, since with this kind of money one could, would, probably should, get a little creative and smash the usual patterns and the typical cookie cutter solutions.

There are literally hundreds of brands/manufacturers that would potentially qualify for an honorable mention in such a thread, but still, we get the exact same six or seven names that we see in every other thread (ATC, KEF, Naim, etc). I have never read the forum religiously, but for about a week or so I kept checking many such threads (since I too, am looking to grab some gear in the near-ish future), and I have to say that the repetition (and predictability) of the suggestions is borderline depressing.

 

[relocated]

You don't need to spend more than £100k on a houseble.

That probably depends where you live, Im sure you can get lots around Coventry for that sort of price but not around here, cheapest is about £125,000 but thats only 1 bedroom.

Nitpicking aside, I'm sure the point is understood.

It isn't "nitpicking"though David. It is about the accuracy of your opinion. Let's hope your sound opinion is better than your house price opinion.

 

[Overdose]

Performance benefits cease to exist above this point

That is, of course, a ridiculous thing to say.

Why?

To suggest the opposite is to say that performance increases alongside the price ad infinitum, ergo the most expensive equipment for a given setting is the best.

Which is more ridiculous a suggestion?

 

[Electro]

Reading this thread, one could easily get the impression of a forum wide fixation on a hand full of products from a hand full of brands. Which could be understandable for most other similar threads (purchase advice) with low/er budgets on hand (the value champions argument can be raised). But here it's a little disturbing, since with this kind of money one could, would, probably should, get a little creative and smash the usual patterns and the typical cookie cutter solutions. There are literally hundreds of brands/manufacturers that would potentially qualify for an honorable mention in such a thread, but still, we get the exact same six or seven names that we see in every other thread (ATC, KEF, Naim, etc). I have never read the forum religiously, but for about a week or so I kept checking many such threads (since I too, am looking to grab some gear in the near-ish future), and I have to say that the repetition (and predictability) of the suggestions is borderline depressing.

I have some sympathy for this point of view and have said someting similar before , there are many other brands that are at least as good if not better than the usual most common recommendations especially some European products .

But to be fair some of these alternative products are harder to find and demo but it is worth the effort because there are some real gems to be found

 

[floyd droid]

Reading this thread, one could easily get the impression of a forum wide fixation on a hand full of products from a hand full of brands. Which could be understandable for most other similar threads (purchase advice) with low/er budgets on hand (the value champions argument can be raised). But here it's a little disturbing, since with this kind of money one could, would, probably should, get a little creative and smash the usual patterns and the typical cookie cutter solutions. There are literally hundreds of brands/manufacturers that would potentially qualify for an honorable mention in such a thread, but still, we get the exact same six or seven names that we see in every other thread (ATC, KEF, Naim, etc). I have never read the forum religiously, but for about a week or so I kept checking many such threads (since I too, am looking to grab some gear in the near-ish future), and I have to say that the repetition (and predictability) of the suggestions is borderline depressing.

Ooooh , I will look forward to your opening post then mate . You wont be getting Naim,PMC,KEF blah blah blah from me thats for certain.

But you need to remember where you are here, its basically sevenoaks r us ,lol.

 

[davedotco]

Reading this thread, one could easily get the impression of a forum wide fixation on a hand full of products from a hand full of brands. Which could be understandable for most other similar threads (purchase advice) with low/er budgets on hand (the value champions argument can be raised). But here it's a little disturbing, since with this kind of money one could, would, probably should, get a little creative and smash the usual patterns and the typical cookie cutter solutions. There are literally hundreds of brands/manufacturers that would potentially qualify for an honorable mention in such a thread, but still, we get the exact same six or seven names that we see in every other thread (ATC, KEF, Naim, etc). I have never read the forum religiously, but for about a week or so I kept checking many such threads (since I too, am looking to grab some gear in the near-ish future), and I have to say that the repetition (and predictability) of the suggestions is borderline depressing.

Whilst this is true you have to understand the nature of this forum.

A lot of posters are not looking for the best sound, or even the best sound for their money they are making a 'lifestyle' choice.

In many cases they are looking for 'bling' and well known brand names to impress their mates and make them feel good about themselves. Nothing wrong with a bit of 'retail therapy' but it is pointless recomending different equipment that does not tick the right boxes.

for example, a lot of people come on here looking for modestly priced equipment to play modern 'bass driven' music, I, and a few others, often recommend active pro monitor type speakers for their ability to produce a powerful, punchy sound at a modest cost, exactly what is required.

However they are rarely well known names and are largely 'bling' free so the usual suspects, the 'value champions' as you put it are bought instead.

Once the excitement of the new system is past, they are often to be found back on here complaining that the system is not giving them what they want and asking if maybe some new cables or a subwoofer will make the difference.

It almost certainly will not but such straightforward advice is not welcome, you are challenging their choice (made after reading all the reviews and forum recommendations) of equipment and that just gets you an argument you really don't need.

 

[floyd droid]

Good post Dave.

 

[John Duncan]

To suggest the opposite is to say that performance increases alongside the price ad infinitum, ergo the most expensive equipment for a given setting is the best.

That's not what I suggest at all, and you know it. Whether benefits above a certain price are a) audible or b) worth the money is another matter entirely (and has been discussed in this thread), but you suggest that they do not exist *at all* - ie that there is a point where components are perfect and no improvement is possible. THAT is ridiculous.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Problem is that Overdose's is the philosophy of a certain tiny manufacturer which has a disproportionately big voice on this forum.

Not worth commenting on, really.

 

[Overdose]

To suggest the opposite is to say that performance increases alongside the price ad infinitum, ergo the most expensive equipment for a given setting is the best.

That's not what I suggest at all, and you know it. Whether benefits above a certain price are a) audible or b) worth the money is another matter entirely (and has been discussed in this thread), but you suggest that they do not exist *at all* - ie that there is a point where components are perfect and no improvement is possible. THAT is ridiculous.

Equipment can be as good as it is technically possible to be. This level of performance is the ceiling at which no more benefit is possible and it can be done at a given cost. That manufacturers spend more acheiving this goal, or people are willing to buy equipment vastly more expensive than necessary to obtain it, doesn't change the fact that a technical ceiling for performance exists. It is certainly possible for some components to be audibly transparent and beyond the audible, there is no actual benefit other than holding bragging rights.

Basically this ceiling is audibility and regardless of figures or measurements differentiating components, if it's not audibly different it is effectively the same. Speakers are the odd one out of the mix as making audibly transparent speakers is nigh on impossible at the moment, but given a good enough system and a decent DSP setup, you could imitate the sound of almost any consumer sound system available. Whether or not you wanted to or needed to is another matter, but it doesn't change the fact that it can be done and at more modest price levels than some might suggest.

 

[Frank Harvey]

It isn't "nitpicking"though David. It is about the accuracy of your opinion. Let's hope your sound opinion is better than your house price opinion.

I'm sure everyone else got the point of my post even if you didn't.

 

[Overdose]

deleted for quotation error

 

[chebby]

Reading this thread, one could easily get the impression of a forum wide fixation on a hand full of products from a hand full of brands. Which could be understandable for most other similar threads (purchase advice) with low/er budgets on hand (the value champions argument can be raised). But here it's a little disturbing, since with this kind of money one could, would, probably should, get a little creative and smash the usual patterns and the typical cookie cutter solutions. There are literally hundreds of brands/manufacturers that would potentially qualify for an honorable mention in such a thread, but still, we get the exact same six or seven names that we see in every other thread (ATC, KEF, Naim, etc). I have never read the forum religiously, but for about a week or so I kept checking many such threads (since I too, am looking to grab some gear in the near-ish future), and I have to say that the repetition (and predictability) of the suggestions is borderline depressing.

I have some sympathy for this point of view and have said someting similar before , there are many other brands that are at least as good if not better than the usual most common recommendations especially some European products .

But to be fair some of these alternative products are harder to find and demo but it is worth the effort because there are some real gems to be found

At least Electrocompaniet are easy find (Audio-T five minutes away in my case).

They have also been around for donkey's years and have regularly featured in magazine reviews (even in WHF?). They are also regularly recommended here in the forum. Does this, and their - relatively - easy availability in the UK nowadays, make them a 'typical cookie cutter solution'?

 

[lindsayt]

Which brings us onto hi-fi. Based on what I've heard so far: Spending more than £600 on the right digital source makes no sense, as spending more than this doesn't get you noticeably better sound quality. Spending more than £1000 on the right solid state power amplification doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. Spending more than about £3000 on the right valve power amp doesn't make any sense as you don't get better sound quality. For speakers it depends on your taste in music and speakers. Somewhere in the region of £800 to £7000, depending on your tastes, should be enough to buy the right speakers for you.

As I have previously mentioned, I'm beginning to think the oft stated 'law of diminishing returns' isn't as relevant as it used to be. I think when people state (not saying this is the case with yourself) that spending more than X amount brings no benefits, it can sometimes be a misinformed opinion. Many people base these beliefs on what they hear at shows (one of the few places for the masses to hear high end hi-fi), which is one of the worst places to form any opinions on any equipment. Others may have heard a badly matched system or two at a dealer or show and done the same. Others just follow others and repeat, regardless. You could argue that better quality equipment is more neutral and more accurate, and to that you could say that many people may not necessarily like 'accurate', as most people seem to like a bit of warmth or character (hence the number of speaker manufacturers in this tiny industry).

I would generally agree with the last point, but not on the others.

Yes, it all depends what particular digital source, power amps and speakers we're talking about.

My top-end for sound quality at the lowest price components are:

Digital source: 2nd hand Benchmark DAC

Solid state power amplification: for high power a 2nd hand JBL 6290 professional amp, or for better domestic acceptability a classic Pioneer Exclusive, or Sony ES, or Onkyo Integra, or Kenwood, or something of that ilk.

Valve power amp: a custom built SET, or a used Coincident Frankenstein, or a Longdog Audio SET, or a Jeff Korneff or a Yamamoto.

Speakers: for someone prioritising WAF and small size and convenience over ultimate sound quality a 2nd hand pair of active AVI's, for someone into chamber music or wanting the most amount of midrange magic with a large well furnished room 2nd hand Quad Electrostatics, for someone prioritising all-round sound quality a custom frankenstein semi DIY speaker that includes horns, for turnkey good all-rounder speakers full sized corner horns such as EV Patricians, for a great compromise between WAF and sound quality Vaughn Cabernets (preferably 2nd hand if you can find any) or some variation of this theme of exotic, higher efficiency drivers in a well executed design.

Of course, it's possible that I might come across a component that's much higher priced than the ones I've mentioned that does sound significantly better. So far I haven't.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Have you heard Martin Logan, Magnepan, Magico or top range Tannoys, lindsayt?

Sadly, as with everything from washing machines to blenders, you get what you pay for in this life on this blighted planet .