So you think mains cables cant possibly make a difference

[Andrew Everard]

jokerpaulonline:so a question to JohnDuncan, when whfi do there tests, do they ever do a test on the same system, but with younger and older people listening to it to see if they can hear different things?

Again, John isn't involved in the testing process, he's responsible for getting and keeping this site (and lots of other Haymarket sites) working, and happens to be a hi-fi enthusiast on the side...

 

[Clare Newsome]

jokerpaulonline:
[*]All this talk about weather the cables make any difference in the sound quality, got me thinking,
[*]younger people can hear different frequences to older people, (councils played certain notes to disburst groups of youngsters from hanging around certain areas)
[*]It would be intresting to see if there is any simularity in the ages of people that think there is a difference and those that dont.
[*]so a question to JohnDuncan, when whfi do there tests, do they ever do a test on the same system, but with younger and older people listening to it to see if they can hear different things?

So a test team spanning from 20-something to 50-something, with female participation (us ladies holding onto our ability to hear frequency extremes longer than men) isn't enough then?

 

[bigboss]

aliEnRIK:

Went to a blokes house yesterday who has a very expensive setup

he asked to borrow some mains leads to try

I never listened to his setup before fitting mine

Onto his HUGH REL subwoofer I fitted an Isotek Elite

After fitting the others he put a bass heavy track on. It sounded awful. Really BOOMy

I decided to swop to a russ andrews classic (Which has MORE guage wire in than the elite), calmed it down a treat (Though I still think his subs far too big for the room)

I could 'blind test' that all day if id wanted

So anyone any ideas how that works? Are we STILL claiming they cant possibly make any difference?

Excluding the miles of cable before the power socket, if you check the insides of the amp or CD player, does the wiring from the IEC plug to the power supply look like silver coated or cryogenically frozen cable? Or is it a standard thick cheap wire ?

If the latter - and it's of similar quality to that before the "special cable", then how can that 0.5-1m of special cable inbetween the bog standard cable make any difference whatsoever?

I don't think there will ever be an end to this debate. There are two types of people: those who can see/hear a difference, & those who can't. Just determine which category you fall into & decide for yourself if you want to spend that much extra on a mains cable.

I can't see/hear any difference.

 

[proffski]

Kings new clothes... Would some of these products get good reviews if the manufacturers never ever advertised in the magazines? I still call it 'Pseoudo Science' 'Ju Ju Flop' and 'Mumbo Jumbo'. But admit that some of these cables look oh so very pretty!

 

[Anonymous]

well , given the price of russ andrews cables , and given that any improvement that they may offer is at best , very very marginal ..

its just as well for russ that he has such a loyal , cult like following

 

[Andrew Everard]

proffski:Would some of these products get good reviews if the manufacturers never ever advertised in the magazines?

Ah, that old saw... Well, can't speak for other magazines, but in our case the answer is 'If they were any good, yes.' We've given many good reviews to non-advertisers, and many poor ones to prolific advertisers, yet again proving there's no link between review ratings and advertising spend, however many times the accusation may be made.

 

[Anonymous]

Fahnsen:
There's loads of things that can make you hear differences when you change anything in your set-up.

For instance, only a slight re-positioning of the speakers, or a change in your ears' relation to the speakers (like shifting your position in the chair), will cause audible (and measurable) differences.

And of course, any psychologist can tell you (and show you tests to prove it) that if you expect to hear a difference, chances are you'll hear 'em.

What's more, we've got no exact memory of sound, so unless we're able to switch immediately between samples, we're really comparing precessed memories; not actual sound.

Meaning, if you hear a sample, leave your seat to change cables, and get back to your seat to listen to a new sample, what you think you hear don't mean a thing.

The only way to decide whether there's real differences, is blind tests -- which is a little more complicated than just not seeing the cables in use. In such tests (and there's been a few) no-one has ever been able to identify different cables.

Well Done fahnsen -that,s very nicely put!

To add to that - difference it dosn,t necessarily stand's for better or an improvment , because difference product they may color the sound's in many differnce way, and whille you think that you might be gaining performance in some arial, you actually might be also loosing some in another -and let,s be honest even those short session A/B test for 5-10 minute , they are not usually allways reliable.

 

[chebby]

Clare Newsome:So a test team spanning from 20-something to 50-something, with female participation (us ladies holding onto our ability to hear frequency extremes longer than men) isn't enough then?

You suprised me with that test team 'demographic' Clare.

I really did think they were all much, much younger.

 

[John Duncan]

chebby:
Clare Newsome:So a test team spanning from 20-something to 50-something, with female participation (us ladies holding onto our ability to hear frequency extremes longer than men) isn't enough then?

You suprised me with that test team 'demographic' Clare.

I really did think they were all much, much younger.

My five-year-old thinks the Uniti is "too loud". Does that count?

 

[chebby]

JohnDuncan:My five-year-old thinks the Uniti is "too loud". Does that count?

Speaking of which, when do we get to read your review of it? (The naimuniti, not the 5 year-old.)

 

[Clare Newsome]

chebby:
Clare Newsome:So a test team spanning from 20-something to 50-something, with female participation (us ladies holding onto our ability to hear frequency extremes longer than men) isn't enough then?

You suprised me with that test team 'demographic' Clare.

I really did think they were all much, much younger.

Nope - average age would be thirty-something. Very similar, in fact, to our reader demographic.

 

[Anonymous]

Some people apparently cannot hear differences between a system working at its best and the same working with mains pollution with a higher noise floor.
It will save them many thousands of pounds in not buying better Hi-Fi etc.

Unfortunately there are many who have a critical listening ear and develop their systems to get the most performance out of it.

As many know the Domestic mains quality is affected by noise, radio frequency interference (RFI). which is collected along the cable running from the sub-station, through transformers, street cabling to your home.
Added to that further noise pollution off the ring circuits in the home, poor Earthing and stray voltage on the Neutral and Earth lines.
So you can see the supply is less than perfect, as it generates a higher noise floor.
Even if you run a separate radial from your CPU to your hi-fi, this is no solution for the poor quality mains coming into your house.

Why is mains quality important?

To supply each component with the purest quality mains will allow it to operate at its optimum, without having to work against mains noise.

When talking about equipment - There's two paths - The Signal path and the Power path.
Power rails feeding the amplification circuits interact and interfere with the delicate signal paths causing serious degregation to music quality. (much of it radiating from the transformer)
This is why keeping the pre-amp in another unit from the power amp sounds much better.
The thing about amplification is it amplifies what it is sent, noise and all. So quite simply garbage mains in garbage noise out.
Mains cables do have there part to play in either helping or hindering mains noise, along with a good grounded Main Earth and well laid out cables instead of a jumble of wires.
Hope my post helps a little for a clearer understanding.

 

[Anonymous]

EDITED BY MODS - please do not attack other users

 

[Anonymous]

Trevor, what you say is not proven, and you should make that point. Because that is the case, you logic, while not flawed, is based on potentially false premises.

 

[Anonymous]

Err, sorry don't follow?

Please be a little less obtuse.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you mean obscure, not obtuse. Sorry, for once can't help you there.

 

[idc]

The WHF blind test where mains cables were found to have the biggest influence on sound, compared to ICs and speaker cable was interesting. It is also contradicted by another forums test where four disguised mains cables were sent to different members who tried them out on their own kit and then rated them. Tow of the cables were identical, but 8 out of 23 said they could hear a difference. The audiophile cable rated no better than the others.

 

[Anonymous]

I think I mean obtuse..........

Am an attendant lord, one that will do...Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse; At times, indeed, almost ridiculous- Almost, at times, the Fool." - T.S. Eliot (1888-1965),British-American poet and critic, from The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, 1917.

OK

 

[Anonymous]

Look up obtuse on google, Trev, or in a dictionary. You meant obscure.

 

[Anonymous]

Obtuse..

a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.
b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.

Do I?

 

[Anonymous]

trevor79:Obtuse..a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.Do I?Obviously, Trev, otherwise you'd be attacking another forum member, and you wouldn't want to do that, would you?

So what did you think of the disallowed goal?

 

[Andrew Everard]

Tarquinh:Obviously, Trev, otherwise you'd be attacking another forum member, and you wouldn't want to do that, would you?

You've been warned before, Tarquinh...

 

[Anonymous]

Systems working in ideal conditions v working with a Mains noise floor due to various conditions is not obvious for everyone.

However business and commerce are actively addressing this, cleaning up the power supply by balancing phase voltages, filtering harmonics, transients and dealing with over voltage.
Intel have done much research on this and Powerstar (http://powerstar.co.uk/voltageoptimisation.html) are providing solutions for many household names in the UK.

The Mains can be improved with benefits gained.

I appreciate that some people refuse to except this, but that is down to a lack of knowledge IMHO. After all it's a specialized subject.

As many know Mains quality is affected by Voltage variances, noise, radio frequency interference (RFI).

Added to that further noise pollution off the ring circuits in the home, poor Earthing and stray voltage on the Neutral and Earth lines.
So you can see the supply is not perfect, it generates a higher noise floor.
Even if you run a separate radial from your CPU to your hi-fi, this is no solution for the poor quality mains coming into your house.

Why is mains quality important?

To supply the purest quality mains will allow your equipment to perform better and last longer.

When talking about equipment - There's two paths - The Signal path and the Power path.
Power rails feeding the amplification circuits interact and interfere with the delicate signal paths causing serious degregation to music quality. (much of it radiating from the transformer)
Keeping the Pre/Power amps separate sounds better.
Amplification amplifies what it is given, noise and all. So quite simply garbage Mains in, garbage noise out.

Mains cables do have there part to play in either helping or hindering mains noise, along with a good grounded Main Earth and well laid out cables instead of a jumble of wires.

Hope my post helps a little for a clearer understanding.

 

[chebby]

I can understand the logic behind all that for explaining the employment of mains filtering devices (like your BT units for instance) if mains noise/fluctuation is a problem.

However the thread is entitled... "So you think mains cables cant possibly make a difference", so the subject is to do with about 2 metres of cable between a wall socket and the hifi's mains input.

If poor mains quality is a problem in one's premises, then what will 2 metres or so of passive cable (no matter what gauge or quality nor how well screened) be able to do about the problem?

 

[Dave_]

trevor79:Systems working in ideal conditions v working with a Mains noise floor due to various conditions is not obvious for everyone.

However business and commerce are actively addressing this, cleaning up the power supply by balancing phase voltages, filtering harmonics, transients and dealing with over voltage.
Intel have done much research on this and Powerstar (http://powerstar.co.uk/voltageoptimisation.html) are providing solutions for many household names in the UK.

The Mains can be improved with benefits gained.

I appreciate that some people refuse to except this, but that is down to a lack of knowledge IMHO. After all it's a specialized subject.

As many know Mains quality is affected by Voltage variances, noise, radio frequency interference (RFI).

Added to that further noise pollution off the ring circuits in the home, poor Earthing and stray voltage on the Neutral and Earth lines.
So you can see the supply is not perfect, it generates a higher noise floor.
Even if you run a separate radial from your CPU to your hi-fi, this is no solution for the poor quality mains coming into your house.

Why is mains quality important?

To supply the purest quality mains will allow your equipment to perform better and last longer.

When talking about equipment - There's two paths - The Signal path and the Power path.
Power rails feeding the amplification circuits interact and interfere with the delicate signal paths causing serious degregation to music quality. (much of it radiating from the transformer)
Keeping the Pre/Power amps separate sounds better.
Amplification amplifies what it is given, noise and all. So quite simply garbage Mains in, garbage noise out.

Mains cables do have there part to play in either helping or hindering mains noise, along with a good grounded Main Earth and well laid out cables instead of a jumble of wires.

Hope my post helps a little for a clearer understanding.You posted exactly the same thing yesterday, on the previous page- So what was the point of this post!