Reliability of HiFi gear: rant ahoy

[nopiano]

They’re great if you wrap some fish in foil, with a bit of oil and seasoning. Very quick and healthy, tasty too. Baked potatoes, lots of other stuff too. I cook frozen samosas in mine. I’m not a chip fan, I find them tasteless and greasy, but home made oven chips tossed in a small amount of olive oil and Kikkoman soya sauce, plus black pepper, are not bad, certainly they make a change. I don’t eat meat, but I suspect meat cooks really well in them.

Drifting your own thread…whatever next!

 

[davidf]

Not really sure what frying pans and Apple Watches have to do with audio (the thread title), but as others have said, it seems as though you’ve just been a it unlucky. Not uncommon - I’ve seen others who have had numerous issues with many things, audio or otherwise. Personally, I’ve never had an issue with any Apple products other than their intentional retardation via software updates, and virtually zero audio issues other than those caused by my own hand, other than a faulty Aiwa personal cassette player in the 90s, and the odd projector issue, usually failing bulbs. My Xbox 360 died on me in 2011 (about as relevant as frying pans), and I had a subwoofer amp issue about 8 years ago, bu other than that, nothing of note.

 

[twinkletoes]

Humm I think you’re just unlucky or as is mostly the case on the internet the real reason for failure hasn’t been mentioned so take these problems with a healthy dose of salt. But there certainly are faults that do crop up.

I’ve owned very few audio products that have actually gone properly wrong. Naim was the most notable brand for me that’s caused me some bother and were a little quirky in use but to give them their credit they tried to resolve the issues.

I’ve got speakers, mission 700s that are nearly 25 years young. NAD components that I bought in 2002 and are still being used (though I have tracked down spares for them). A lovely marantz pm7200 the one with a class A switch which is 20 years young, A pioneer Blu-ray player I bought in 09 still going strong.

I have a chord qutest that’s sat in my rack for 4-5 years and been powered on 24/7. Things with batteries need to be replaced at some point it’s not really a fault it where and tear but agree they should be user replaceable.

Spending more doesn’t necessarily mean more reliable, in fact the more highly tuned somthing is the more service intervals it may require. And that goes for any product. Cars to watches and everything in between.

The right repair argument though is a completely separate issue and people should fight back as this could be the difference between something becoming landfill or not, manufactures should be made to make spares available or least supply plan for there devices to allow for easier repairs and spares found.

 

[Gray]

I’ve got speakers, mission 700s that are nearly 25 years young.

And the rest, surely.
Pretty sure I bought my little Mission 700 in the very early 80's.
I sold them well over 25 years ago.

 

[davidf]

I forgot something I had that went faulty - my Tag McLaren AV32r192 died on me within a week, and under the terms and condition of their warranty, it was to be repaired. I set them straight and they replaced it. That was about 20 years ago.

 

[matthewpianist]

I would say I've generally been lucky, but then I haven't had most kit long enough for issues to develop.

The Rotel CD11 Tribute has proven to be a pain. I've now had 2 and my Dad has had one, and all three have exhibited the very intermittent issue of suddenly stopping halfway through a track. My current one last did so half way through the final movement of a Nielsen symphony! It's now out for repair, but I'm half expecting an unacceptable response of 'no fault found'. It's a shame because it's a superb CD player sound-wise and also very well built overall. When I read around it seems modern Rotel CD players have a bit of a reputation for transport issues, which is a shame. My 30-year old Sony is utterly reliable with every disc I play.

I had a Roksan K2 CD player (bought new) which developed a faulty display, but Roksan were excellent in getting it sorted.

 

[podknocker]

I would say I've generally been lucky, but then I haven't had most kit long enough for issues to develop.

The Rotel CD11 Tribute has proven to be a pain. I've now had 2 and my Dad has had one, and all three have exhibited the very intermittent issue of suddenly stopping halfway through a track. My current one last did so half way through the final movement of a Nielsen symphony! It's now out for repair, but I'm half expecting an unacceptable response of 'no fault found'. It's a shame because it's a superb CD player sound-wise and also very well built overall. When I read around it seems modern Rotel CD players have a bit of a reputation for transport issues, which is a shame. My 30-year old Sony is utterly reliable with every disc I play.

I had a Roksan K2 CD player (bought new) which developed a faulty display, but Roksan were excellent in getting it sorted.

That's serious bad luck, having 3 faulty units. It must be a faulty part, or some glitchy firmware. I've mentioned this in earlier posts and I still think CD players are more unreliable than they used to be. I've owned over a dozen over the years and the more recently purchased ones developed faults sooner than older ones. This technology is over 40 years old now, thanks to Philips and Sony and I can't imagine what companies are doing, to make these things fail. The components should be very familiar and should be reliable, after more than 40 years of fabrication and use. Thankfully, I've reached the end of my journey with the optical formats. It's streaming only now and I hope this stuff works much better and for longer.

 

[npxavar]

My mom's portable anti-shock Panasonic CD player from 1998 has Elna caps inside. Not a joke. Still works fine, although it's been indoors for the last 10+ years. Never serviced.

 

[podknocker]

Elna Cerafine caps in loads of stuff years ago. I don't keep up with this stuff now, as I'm a bit less geeky, but I'm guessing most modern devices use poorer quality caps etc.

 

[matthewpianist]

That's serious bad luck, having 3 faulty units. It must be a faulty part, or some glitchy firmware. I've mentioned this in earlier posts and I still think CD players are more unreliable than they used to be. I've owned over a dozen over the years and the more recently purchased ones, developed faults sooner than older ones. This technology is over 40 years old now, thanks to Philips and Sony and I can't imagine what companies are doing, to make these things fail. The components should be very familiar and should be reliable, after more than 40 years of fabrication and use. Thankfully, I've reached the end of my journey with the optical formats. Is streaming only now and I hope this stuff works much better and for longer.

I think back then manufacturers (and especially Sony and Philips who invented the format and supplied transports to most other manufacturers) were paying particular attention to making CD as good as it could possibly so that it would be adopted as THE mainstream format. That worked for over 30 years, but over the past 10 it has given so much ground to streaming. Sony and Philips both stepped out of producing hi-fi long ago, and I think most makers are now simply pushing out players to avoid gaps in their customer base.

I notice Rega discontinued the Apollo a few months ago, and there hasn't been any announcements about a replacement. In the recent WHF feature on Rega, it was suggested that parts for CD players are becoming harder to get hold of.

That really leaves only Marantz and Denon producing decent affordable CD players.

 

[podknocker]

I'm wondering if the quality Philips and Sony transports are hard to find now and there is a large manufacturer, producing a generic CD transport and this finds its way into most devices. I'm only guessing. I'm not sure how many types of transport are made now and how the quality differs.

I agree CD players are a 'filler' in most product ranges and focus is moving away from building quality components for this sort of product. Companies don't invest as much perhaps. It's still no reason a company like Cyrus can charge over £2000 for a CD player and the thing can't read CDs. This has happened and it's a disgrace. My Audiolab Omnia needed a servo version update, via CD, to help it read CDs. Shocking.

I mentioned earlier about what goes into a CD player and it doesn't come close to £500 so what are companies adding to a CD player, that we don't know about, to make this 41 year old device cost so much? It's not a bespoke, hand crafted transport.

 

[Geoff P.]

In a similar vein ( old kit is better ? ), I've had varying results from the same manufacturer. Last year, for fun, I fired up my old full size Aiwa cassette deck, only to find all the drive belts had turned to black mush ! Binned.
Then this week my granddaughter showed an interest in cassettes ( some bright young thing is bringing them out, apparently ). Found my 40 year old Aiwa portable player, put in 2 AAs, plugged in my AKG K451s and it plays and sounds fine ! So that's getting a new home.
Must admit I've had good experiences with most of my old kit, as my Denon DRA-455 amp, Marantz CD5400, Thorens TD166 MK2 and Mission 750LE are all still doing good work !
Geoff P.

 

[Noddy]

I mentioned earlier about what goes into a CD player and it doesn't come close to £500 so what are companies adding to a CD player, that we don't know about, to make this 41 year old device cost so much? It's not a bespoke, hand crafted transport.

As I said, boutique manufacturers have bigger overheads relative to unit sales. I’m sure you cannot hear the difference between a decent consumer grade Japanese CDT and an audiophile boutique one, unless the latter has been deliberately voiced. The latter might have fancy knobs of course, and a nicer fascia. It might also be assembled in the UK. And plenty of nice adverts and reviews in the magazines to convince you that it is the mutts. I admit to being a bit of a snob, I chose an AudioLab amp over a Marantz, or other Japanese brand, on the basis of looks, even though I know the Marantz may well be more reliable. My old Akai separates were very reliable, as was the cheap Japanese all in one before it. And my Sony Walkman.

The biggest enemy of electronics is heat, I’m sure my Arcam Solo Movie was running too hot, lots of features in a small case, it’s not ideal. My Chord Mojo ran hot, once the new battery arrives, I will find out if the circuits have fried. I went through numerous hard drives in my old PC until I realised that it had insufficient cooling, and the drives were frying. The motherboard also started failing. They had cut costs to maximise profit. The cheaper audio gear can also get too hot. That is why I now avoid all in one systems.

 

[npxavar]

The biggest enemy of electronics is heat, I’m sure my Arcam Solo Movie was running too hot, lots of features in a small case, it’s not ideal. My Chord Mojo ran hot, once the new battery arrives, I will find out if the circuits have fried. I went through numerous hard drives in my old PC until I realised that it had insufficient cooling, and the drives were frying. The motherboard also started failing. They had cut costs to maximise profit. The cheaper audio gear can also get too hot. That is why I now avoid all in one systems.

For boutique brands it is not maximizing it is about making a profit or not. Naim and Rega just don't use heatsinks on their amps unless it is placed on the chassis for a combined effect. Heatsinks are among the most expensive parts in an amp, along with the chassis and the transformer.

UK has a relatively cool climate and all(?) affordable boutique brands are UK based. Lots of boutique brands in the US but they have to ship to Texas so ... As for Europe, Burmeister and Pathos make true monster out of amplifiers with matching prices.

 

[matthewpianist]

Update on the CD11 Tribute... It's unexpectedly just been delivered back to me, and has had a new CD loader, fitted by Rotel. I'll report back in a few days once it's got a good few hours on it, but at least the repair was handled efficiently (through RS) and I didn't get the lazy 'FNF' outcome which is so often the case with intermittent faults.

I'm hoping all will be good because it's a fantastic sounding machine.

 

[Noddy]

For boutique brands it is not maximizing it is about making a profit or not. Naim and Rega just don't use heatsinks on their amps unless it is placed on the chassis for a combined effect. Heatsinks are among the most expensive parts in an amp, along with the chassis and the transformer.

UK has a relatively cool climate and all(?) affordable boutique brands are UK based. Lots of boutique brands in the US but they have to ship to Texas so ... As for Europe, Burmeister and Pathos make true monster out of amplifiers with matching prices.

I didn’t say boutique brands are maximising profit, I actually said they have higher overheads. The danger of consumer brands of course is cost cutting to maximise profit.

I don’t doubt that some boutique brands use better heatsinks, but how much does that really add to the price? Incidentally quite a few of these boutique brands integrated amps can hum. My first AudioLab 6000a hummed intermittently, it could even be heard from 5m away. The replacement is much better, it has almost no hum. I believe they don’t remove any DC offset from the mains input, presumably to reduce unit cost, and manufacturing variations in the transformer coil can lead some to produce vibrations in the presence of a DC offset. My Arcam is a boutique brand, and yet it got rather warm in use.

The better integrated amps use a decent DAC chip, but I can buy one for £10, manufacturers will get them at a much lower price. How much does a nice fascia really cost?

 

[Oxfordian]

In a similar vein ( old kit is better ? ), I've had varying results from the same manufacturer. Last year, for fun, I fired up my old full size Aiwa cassette deck, only to find all the drive belts had turned to black mush ! Binned.
Then this week my granddaughter showed an interest in cassettes ( some bright young thing is bringing them out, apparently ). Found my 40 year old Aiwa portable player, put in 2 AAs, plugged in my AKG K451s and it plays and sounds fine ! So that's getting a new home.
Must admit I've had good experiences with most of my old kit, as my Denon DRA-455 amp, Marantz CD5400, Thorens TD166 MK2 and Mission 750LE are all still doing good work !
Geoff P.

I wish I could say the same, best part of 30 years sat in my loft due to a lack of space to put the system up whilst the kids were living at home, the loft leaked and along with a few nesting birds made the system all but unusable, only the speakers found a new home, the amp, CD player and turntable were all consigned to the great HiFi store at the local skip.

 

[twinkletoes]

And the rest, surely.
Pretty sure I bought my little Mission 700 in the very early 80's.
I sold them well over 25 years ago.

These where the late 90's "refresh"

 

[npxavar]

I didn’t say boutique brands are maximising profit, I actually said they have higher overheads. The danger of consumer brands of course is cost cutting to maximise profit.

I don’t doubt that some boutique brands use better heatsinks, but how much does that really add to the price? Incidentally quite a few of these boutique brands integrated amps can hum. My first AudioLab 6000a hummed intermittently, it could even be heard from 5m away. The replacement is much better, it has almost no hum. I believe they don’t remove any DC offset from the mains input, presumably to reduce unit cost, and manufacturing variations in the transformer coil can lead some to produce vibrations in the presence of a DC offset. My Arcam is a boutique brand, and yet it got rather warm in use.

The better integrated amps use a decent DAC chip, but I can buy one for £10, manufacturers will get them at a much lower price. How much does a nice fascia really cost?

We should be gratefull that affordable boutique is still around. One should be prepared for surprises though. It is like BMW cars, where maintenance troubles look inevitable.

 

[Gray]

I didn't get the lazy 'FNF' outcome which is so often the case with intermittent faults.

Intermittent faults are as bad for service departments as they are for customers.

Having worked in a few, I can assure you that the 'No Fault Found' verdict is (or should be) a reluctant last resort.

There's a limit to how much testing can be done in an effort to reproduce a fault symptom.....they may well have found no fault - but fitted new parts anyway...just to be able to say they did something.

Hopefully the something they did will be your genuine cure 👍

 

[Gray]

In the recent WHF feature on Rega, it was suggested that parts for CD players are becoming harder to get hold of.

No doubt that's true.
Fortunately there were still several places supplying the part I needed to repair my ancient Philips CD-604 recently:


Brother said it reminded him of a Caramac bar.
(If you remember those, you're at least as ancient as the player).

Including postage, the total cost to repair the loading mechanism was £4.69.

 

[davidf]

I notice Rega discontinued the Apollo a few months ago, and there hasn't been any announcements about a replacement. In the recent WHF feature on Rega, it was suggested that parts for CD players are becoming harder to get hold of.

Exposure have just added a new player to their line up. It’s their first full width one for a few years, which could mean availability is improving.

 

[matthewpianist]

Intermittent faults are as bad for service departments as they are for customers.

Having worked in a few, I can assure you that the 'No Fault Found' verdict is (or should be) a reluctant last resort.

There's a limit to how much testing can be done in an effort to reproduce a fault symptom.....they may well have found no fault - but fitted new parts anyway...just to be able to say they did something.

Hopefully the something they did will be your genuine cure 👍

No hitches last night, but it's obviously early days for an intermittent fault. I hope it has fixed the issue as it's a fabulous CD player.

 

[Nico69]

On a OP related note - How long to keep the boxes for? 2 Weeks? 2 Months? 2 Years? 20 Years?

I had my Tannoy speaker boxes since 1997 and they came in handy when I sold them today. It was used to store other camera and lens boxes in the loft.

How long shall I keep my new Marantz amp and cd player boxes and associated polystyrene packing? Also my Dali Oberon box. They are all big and bulky and I have no room really. Do warranty claims insist on original packaging?

 

[matthewpianist]

On a OP related note - How long to keep the boxes for? 2 Weeks? 2 Months? 2 Years? 20 Years?

I had my Tannoy speaker boxes since 1997 and they came in handy when I sold them today. It was used to store other camera and lens boxes in the loft.

How long shall I keep my new Marantz amp and cd player boxes and associated polystyrene packing? Also my Dali Oberon box. They are all big and bulky and I have no room really. Do warranty claims insist on original packaging?

I keep mine for as long as I own a component. It's much safer sending anything that goes faulty for repair, and it's also a big bonus if you decide to sell something.