Question RCA interconnect

[WayneKerr]

Interesting you've brought that up I was trying to work it out the other day. I think it's about £320, which I admit is quite a lot when my hardware costs south of £2k. As you know, I have tried some "kit" changes as you put it, Arcam and Naim amp try outs plus a couple of speaker trials around the £1k area, but nothing has really floated my boat. So it's really been a case of fine-tuning what I've got.

Just taking your current "kit" into consideration - amp, DAC, speakers, at full RRP is around £1500, agreed? So you've spent an additional 21% of this on cables, (£320), that's almost the price of your DAC.

My cable spend is 3.33%, the cables are aftermarket so hopefully professionally terminated and are of sufficient gauge... but the most appealing feature is the colour of the sleeving

 

[podknocker]

Interesting side note on the "objectivist" thing. Hi-res objectively contains a lot more data than FLAC or much more than the compressed hi-res I listen to over bluetooth Ldac. Yet I can't hear any difference between the two. Those that can hear the difference therefore have "objectivity" to back up the differences that they hear. Yet I think the vast majority of people with sound but average hearing would not be able to say which is true high resolution.

FLAC can be any quality you want, up to 32bit /96kHz. It uses lossless compression. It can hold CD, or higher res audio data and will sound the same as the original, whatever the source. I have rips of CDs in FLAC and they sound identical.

MP3, AAC, WAV, FLAC: all the audio file formats explained

Do you know your OGG from your ALAC?

www.whathifi.com

 

[WayneKerr]

I think it'd be great if manufacturers did double blind - there's no legitimate reason why they shouldn't. That piece that Russ Andrews wrote a while back saying they are unrepresentative because they cause the listener stress was pure comedy gold.

But expecting people to do a double blind at home is unrealistic - even if you sheathed cables in something identical, the connectors are likely to be different - so the double part of blinding falls at the first hurdle.

I think that if someone can genuinely* tell the difference between two things (whatever they might be) whilst having their sceptical partner swap between them (i.e. single blind), their views should not automatically be dismissed because they aren't the gold standard and they haven't been published in an academic journal.

*However that is proven - a can of worms I'll leave unopened...

The issue with any audio blind-testing is having zero periods of silence between testing components as auditory memory is fleeting at best.

Some years ago I read a post from a forum member who actually attended a “cable day”, (I can’t remember which company/brand it was), he stated he definitely heard differences between cables but couldn’t explain it. Simple… between all the cable swaps and listening sessions they were being bombarded with sales talk and being told what they would hear.

 

[WayneKerr]

Interesting you've brought that up I was trying to work it out the other day. I think it's about £320, which I admit is quite a lot when my hardware costs south of £2k. As you know, I have tried some "kit" changes as you put it, Arcam and Naim amp try outs plus a couple of speaker trials around the £1k area, but nothing has really floated my boat. So it's really been a case of fine-tuning what I've got.

Don't p*ss about with other brands, you know you like Denon so stick with the brand, just upgrade

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Simple… between all the cable swaps and listening sessions they were being bombarded with sales talk and being told what they would hear.

What I've found interesting is sometimes hearing differences that I was most definitely not expecting. Admittedly these instances are far less frequent than hearing no difference, but there you go.

I think repeatedly swapping between things is important, albeit rather tedious. As often as not, the small differences you 'think' you might be hearing have a habit of disappearing. But occasionally differences between bits of equipment are bigger and don't go away.

 

[WayneKerr]

What I've found interesting is sometimes hearing differences that I was most definitely not expecting. Admittedly these instances are far less frequent than hearing no difference, but there you go.

I think repeatedly swapping between things is important, albeit rather tedious. As often as not, the small differences you 'think' you might be hearing have a habit of disappearing. But occasionally differences between bits of equipment are bigger and don't go away.

We are complex creatures, something as simple as my mood can definitely affect my hearing.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

We are complex creatures, something as simple as my mood can definitely affect my hearing.

Another reason to make sure you are doing this in a concentrated hit - less time for any variables to sway you!

 

[Deleted member 201267]

It was a double blind test of course where you noticed the differences, if so please post the results so that they can be verified by others.

Bill

To be fair though does anybody do blind tests when comparing CD players, Amplifiers etc ?

 

[Gray]

If you can hear differences in cables then you will be blown away with a kit upgrade...

I've always thought that.
Blown completely away, they must be.

 

[podknocker]

We are complex creatures, something as simple as my mood can definitely affect my hearing.

Your mood does affect how you hear and appreciate music, as listening music is such an emotional experience. I respond better to music, when I'm in a good mood and sometimes I don't want to listen to my tunes at all. The time of day, or night, also affects your perception of sounds. There are so many factors, but fancy cables costing thousands of pounds, will have no affect on the information travelling to your components, or speakers.

 

[Gray]

I think that if someone can genuinely* tell the difference between two things (whatever they might be) whilst having their sceptical partner swap between them (i.e. single blind), their views should not automatically be dismissed

In such cases, if blind tests give consistent results, who could dismiss such strong evidence?
But people are always reluctant to do blind tests - based on the "why should I?" logic.
(They've said that it proves nothing 🤔).

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

In such cases, if blind tests give consistent results, who could dismiss such strong evidence?

Indeed. It's more the insistence on double blind that I think is hopelessly unrealistic in this setting - it's just a forum, after all.

 

[robdmarsh]

So you've spent an additional 21% of this on cables, (£320), that's almost the price of your DAC.

I've got no problem with this, my system sounds all the better for it. Denon amp upgrade (I agree this would be the obvious amp upgrade for me) would be at least £1000, to a 1600ne or newer 1700ne.

 

[WayneKerr]

To be fair though does anybody do blind tests when comparing CD players, Amplifiers etc ?

An excellent question. When I bought my last upgrade I was over the moon with the leap in performance, (actually I was a little confused at first as it did sound very different), and I've often wondered in a blind side-by-side comparison would this still be evident and would I definitely be able to tell the difference between the two systems? I'm hoping the answer would be yes, but I'm really not sure.

I think a simple blind comparison may surprise many people... and not in a good way.

When I'm bored I might get Gray around and have a play

 

[WayneKerr]

I've got no problem with this, my system sounds all the better for it. Denon amp upgrade (I agree this would be the obvious amp upgrade for me) would be at least £1000, to a 1600ne or newer 1700ne.

Pleased for ya, Rob, as that's all that really matters It's your money, so none of my business, my only advice would be keep your eye on your cable expenditure as you're creeping towards a better box.

 

[abacus]

An excellent question. When I bought my last upgrade I was over the moon with the leap in performance, (actually I was a little confused at first as it did sound very different), and I've often wondered in a blind side-by-side comparison would this still be evident and would I definitely be able to tell the difference between the two systems? I'm hoping the answer would be yes, but I'm really not sure.

I think a simple blind comparison may surprise many people... and not in a good way.

When I'm bored I might get Gray around and have a play

Unlike a cable (Which is just resistance, capacitance and inductance) hardware has multiple types of components and designs which all effect how it performs, also the more limited the budget that is available to design and make the product the more compromises have to be made, (All of which will affect its performance) hence why they sound different and require careful matching to get the best sound. (If you can afford to buy no compromise products then yes they will be the same in a blind test)
BTW: if you can hear a difference between products (Including cables) then the difference can be measured, and anyone that tells you otherwise is either ill informed or a con.

Bill

 

[WayneKerr]

I'm not an electronics expert so if this questions has flaws please advise. A question for the pro-cable guys:

When you're testing new interconnects do you use an RCA Y splitter cable to compare the new interconnects with the old ones?

When comparing speaker cables do you use the A-B speaker connections on your amp or a switch-box if you don't have A-B connections.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

I'm not an electronics expert so if this questions has flaws please advise. A question for the pro-cable guys:

When you're testing new interconnects do you use an RCA Y splitter cable to compare the new interconnects with the old ones?

When comparing speaker cables do you use the A-B speaker connections on your amp or a switch-box if you don't have A-B connections.

I read somewhere that if your amplifier has a balance control you can test speaker cables by connecting two different types and simply flick the balance left / right to compare.

Has anybody tried this ?

 

[WayneKerr]

I read somewhere that if your amplifier has a balance control you can test speaker cables by connecting two different types and simply flick the balance left / right to compare.

Has anybody tried this ?

Not personally, but I have used a switch-box for speaker cables and have recently picked-up some RCA Y cables.

 

[nopiano]

I read somewhere that if your amplifier has a balance control you can test speaker cables by connecting two different types and simply flick the balance left / right to compare.

Has anybody tried this ?

You’d need a mono switch too, and speakers next to each other. Still not definitive.

My take - if you don’t hear it listening ‘normally’ then why bother?

 

[Gray]

I read somewhere that if your amplifier has a balance control you can test speaker cables by connecting two different types and simply flick the balance left / right to compare.

Has anybody tried this ?

As suggested above, unless the channels were paired to mono, the differences as you flicked the balance on a stereo amp - would be the difference between L and R channels
(at least there'd be difference that anybody could hear....like completely different instruments 🙂).

 

[record_spot]

To be fair though does anybody do blind tests when comparing CD players, Amplifiers etc ?

I'll put good money down after bad that that's a big fat no. Some magazines, some others, maybe, but most of us? Nowhere near it.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

I'll put good money down after bad that that's a big fat no. Some magazines, some others, maybe, but most of us? Nowhere near it.

Was there not a view that all solid state amplifiers, when level matched, sounded the same ?

 

[Gray]

Was there not a view that all solid state amplifiers, when level matched, sounded the same ?

Yes, often prefixed by 'well designed' so as to rule out poor performers.

Most people would bet money on hearing differences between different makes and models of amps (even with virtually identical paper specs) into the same pair of speakers - wouldn't they?

How many would say the same for cables?
DACs?

 

[record_spot]

Was there not a view that all solid state amplifiers, when level matched, sounded the same ?

Maybe. That wasn't the question I answered though.