Hello. Just a question regarding the DACs. As I wrote some time ago about my CD player (although quite good) is sounding so bright that it gives me fatigue after a few minutes. Now the question. My CDP is Denon DCD 1500 AE also a bit oldish about 8 years. If I buy a DAC ( sth like Pro Ject DAC E ) and insert it between CDP and my amp will it smooth the sound ? What I mean is - is it better to buy a new CDP or a new DAC ? I heard that even when you buy a new DAC your original CDP will still feed it with jitter and data errors coming from the transport. So a bit confused as to whether it is indeed better to buy a DAC or a new CD player...
Question about DACs
- Thread starter stereoman
- Start date
abacus
Well-known member
If the player is well used, then depending on quality, the drive may be worn requiring the error correction software to work harder to maintain an accurate digital output; however this normally shows up by disc skipping or refusing to play.
A good quality DAC will take full control of the digital output from the player, and if correctly designed will solve any jitter or other digital problems.
If the player is working well then there is no reason not to try a DAC to see if this helps, but I suspect you have problems elsewhere in the audio chain that is causing your problem. (If you are used to vinyl then the higher Dynamic range, lower distortion and extended frequency response of CD can come as a bit of a shock, (Assuming the CD has been mastered correctly) and if this is the case than adding a DAC or changing the player will not change this)
Bill
A good quality DAC will take full control of the digital output from the player, and if correctly designed will solve any jitter or other digital problems.
If the player is working well then there is no reason not to try a DAC to see if this helps, but I suspect you have problems elsewhere in the audio chain that is causing your problem. (If you are used to vinyl then the higher Dynamic range, lower distortion and extended frequency response of CD can come as a bit of a shock, (Assuming the CD has been mastered correctly) and if this is the case than adding a DAC or changing the player will not change this)
Bill
rainsoothe
Well-known member
Imo, your entire system is bright - the turntable side of things might balance it out, if the phono stage is warm sounding, and so is the cartridge. But the amp + speakers surely are, don't know about the CDP, but consesus is that Denon make bright sounding stuff. If you have the option, try to listen to the CDP in someone else's system and see if it still seems tiresome. If so, then you know it's the CDP and, if you want smooth sounding stuff, the Onkyo CN 7050 seems like a very good canditate on a budget (CDP + streamer), or a CXN to serve as DAC between your existing CDP and add streaming (if you can budget for one). If not, then it's the rest of your system, and either the amp or the speakers (or both) needs a change.
Can't elaborate on the jitter bit, sorry.
Can't elaborate on the jitter bit, sorry.
abacus said:
Thanks a lot. Indeed it might be a Vinyl / CD listening swap shock. The CDP plays correctly no skipping , no refusing etc. But I guess you're right when saying it might be a direct comparison after Vinyl. Still I think CDP is giving much too bright sound, whereas Vinyl plays absolutely fine. Hope a new DAC try out will resolve this.
insider9
Well-known member
Are there any digital sources you could either borrow or buy with an option to return?
I really mean "any". It would be a good test to see how much a digital source affects the rest of your system.
I really mean "any". It would be a good test to see how much a digital source affects the rest of your system.
macdiddy
Well-known member
cd was a "digital" source.
*unknw*
I do agree in part with rainsoothes reply above in that I don't think that the cd player is to blame totally.
*unknw*
I do agree in part with rainsoothes reply above in that I don't think that the cd player is to blame totally.
Electro
Well-known member
macdiddy said:
No this is digital sauce, it adds flavor and takes off the sharp edges. *wink*
http://www.thedieline.com/blog/2013/12/31/deloitte-digital-awesome-sauce.html
I agree with insider. Only you know whether it’s the system or the CD player by trying some CD players, but I’d try ones with in built dacs to start with if I were you to buy a whole package, rather than introducing more variance and trying to work out if dac or player etc is the issue, and which works together, so look at some reviews of rich sounding CD players.
If you find a CD player that sounds great then perfect. If not try a dac, but I suspect if you are buying a good dac you will introduce more of the sound you don’t like, so at that stage you probably could consider changing speakers. I suspect this will be the biggest issue that is making you not enjoy that source, as i said in your other thread. A smoother sounding speaker could iron out or even eradicate issues of the cd source presentation you currently have.
If you find a CD player that sounds great then perfect. If not try a dac, but I suspect if you are buying a good dac you will introduce more of the sound you don’t like, so at that stage you probably could consider changing speakers. I suspect this will be the biggest issue that is making you not enjoy that source, as i said in your other thread. A smoother sounding speaker could iron out or even eradicate issues of the cd source presentation you currently have.
Al ears
Well-known member
stereoman said:
I believe it would depend on whether or not the DAC is going to support anything else or if the CDP is going to be your only input.
If it is then the route to a new CDP is obvious choice. The second option is a stand-alone transport that will enable you to try different DACs.
Al ears
Well-known member
QuestForThe13thNote said:
I can see where you are coming from but to ease confusion of newbies don't all CDPs come with internal DACs, otherwise they are simply transports.
I use a cd transport to good effect and I think this is the way the op is enquiring, by changing dacs - as the Denon has a digital out and can be used as a transport. I think buying a more detailed off the shelf dac eg chord, will retrieve more detail out of the system, given the Denon player was made and has dacs of some time back, meaning any more detail will probably yield the greater ‘digital sound’ the op referred too. So my inclination would be buy a normal CD player with a dac in it ie non transport - that way you get the partnered sound quality which will be a combination of the dacs and transport, to get the given sound.
Old Denon CDPs sounded sweet and anlogue. My DCD-1500 mk2 was gorgeous (dual Burr-Brown chips, the 1500AE also has one). But sonic trends have changed, brighter and analytical sells more these days.
I see the Pro-Ject also sports BB dac chips. Should be quite decent.
I see the Pro-Ject also sports BB dac chips. Should be quite decent.
Guys I need to tell you that I am a relatively new Vinyl user and for all these years I have not had a direct comparison between CDs and a TT. And though I always reckoned Denon CD players quite good (especially those made in Japan) I can clearly hear how NOT much progress has been made with CD playback. I wonder why through all these years technology did not allow for CD playback to sound as good. I know that only recently they have introduced new DACs in Denon DCD 720AE with some kind of less digital filtering and boy it sounds mellow with 32bit resoultion with hammer price. But still from 1991 up until now, we get CDPs and wonder why we hear all music in such a binary mess...a bit interesting. Many chips are being used in amps but we do net get any problems with that, it seems to regard only CDPs. It is really true that any low budget TT will surpass almost all CDPs up to 1000€ if not further...
Vladimir said:
Ok maybe I exaggerated a bit...
I still love CDs for their functionality and sound cleanness...stereoman said:Vladimir said:
Ok maybe I exaggerated a bit...
Too late. The parachutes are deploying, I hear the TT troops marching in.
stereoman said:
im not with you there stereoman. I’d say a lot of progress has been made with players since early days. Cd playback sounds as good as any vinyl if you pick the right one and match it with the right system. In fact one chap was saying the opposite of you on here, that he got rid of his vinyl as the costs to upgrade it near to his £1000 CD player, were prohibitive in his system.
The original attraction of cd was you need spend less to vinyl to get similar sound quality with the tt, wires, and phono stage all factored in. With costs of production coming down and being able to get better speakers and amps cheaper now, than in the past, with recent cd designs, the benefit of good cd is very much more advantageous.
It sounds to me that you’ve either got some issue with your set up on what you’ve said, which isn’t working for your taste, as a £200 tt will not generally beat a £1000 CD player, in the right system. Alternatively you just prefer a very analogue sounding source with not much treble, or possibly detail retrieval, is what I’m taking from what you’ve said, which is fair enough. Maybe time to do away with cd all together. I really do think have a look at speakers as a way forward. What sort of sound do you reckon is your speakers natural character. Have you tried a speaker wire change?
ok guys , I'm with you on this....Right it might be a bit my **** set up frustration making me not so objective. But still TT sound is so lovely...
A word to Vlad - I have heard and have also a Denon CDP from 1992. Yes they used more mellow sounding dacs but to be honest I do not find them really better sounding than new CDPs. Definitely new CDP dacs nowadays are better to me. More brighter but still not worse than the 90s era CDPs.
A word to Vlad - I have heard and have also a Denon CDP from 1992. Yes they used more mellow sounding dacs but to be honest I do not find them really better sounding than new CDPs. Definitely new CDP dacs nowadays are better to me. More brighter but still not worse than the 90s era CDPs.
This is it i think.....sources are probably fine.....The speaker review of your speakers talks about detail, that they are revealing but with not massive bass oomph. If this is true, pairing with a detailed cyrus amp may be bringing out too much treble in the system and not a good match for your tastes. Also if bass extension is not as good as it could be, it may lead to greater impression of any excess treble.
So whilst you get good presentation by toned down tt, not the same for cd etc. That would make sense.
So id say time to change amp or speakers is the way to go. If I were you I’d keep the cyrus because it’s the stronger of the two on performance, and change your speakers to something smoother -atc, pmc 21 etc. Keep the atlas hyper as it’s a nice smooth cable.
https://www.whathifi.com/leema/xero/review
So whilst you get good presentation by toned down tt, not the same for cd etc. That would make sense.
So id say time to change amp or speakers is the way to go. If I were you I’d keep the cyrus because it’s the stronger of the two on performance, and change your speakers to something smoother -atc, pmc 21 etc. Keep the atlas hyper as it’s a nice smooth cable.
https://www.whathifi.com/leema/xero/review
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