QED Signature HDMI or Chord Company Active HDMI?

[BenLaw]

idc:

There has been a very large study of HDMI cables, which I cannot link to due to the rules, but it found no difference in measured performance between cables until a certain length was reached. Then lines, sparkles etc would appear. The one difference between the cables tested was the length before failures happened. It did not matter of the cable was cheap or expensive either to the final result.

Just to say, I'm in the sceptical but 'don't know' camp. I've only ever had one HDMI cable ant I'm happy with it....

idc, you've referred to this study before. I just wondered whether you're able to help with axman's points. ie what is it at a certain length which produces failure manifesting in sparklies etc? If that occurs at, say, 20m, is there a less visible/obvious problem at 19.9m? Or is it simply that they're all the same until failure (and therefore sparklies etc), just that the length of that failure is different?

Thanks

 

[idc]

The results were shown in this table. The pass and fail columns are from left to right 720p/8bit, 1080p/8bit, Max HDMI and 1080p/8bit/120Hz. I do not why but there is a big gap coming.......

EDITED BY MODS - please reformat and repost if you wish, but be aware of copyright. Please ensure you have the owner's permission before reposting.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:
Proof that 8 x 8 is 64......

A lot of arguments that cables can make a difference is based on philosophic ponderings of the science and not the science it self. Then there is the failed link argument of finding minute differences between cables and stating that must be the cause of a difference in sound/vision. Then there is the elephant in the room, which is a belief that cables themselves make a difference whilst ignoring other explanations based on placebo, psychoacoustics etc.

There has been a very large study of HDMI cables, which I cannot link to due to the rules, but it found no difference in measured performance between cables until a certain length was reached. Then lines, sparkles etc would appear. The one difference between the cables tested was the length before failures happened. It did not matter of the cable was cheap or expensive either to the final result.

i knew it

 

[TKratz]

FrankHarveyHiFi:Personally, I don't really care which side an individual sits on. Like I said, as long as they've reached their conclusion by their own findings, that's fine.

David, have you travelled to the moon to check what it is made of?
Many people are convinced it is made of cheese. How can you know that is not true if you have not tested it yourself?

You cannot test everything! Sometimes you simply have to rely on - well, science.

 

[professorhat]

TKratz:David, have you travelled to the moon to check what it is made of?

Many people are convinced it is made of cheese. How can you know that is not true if you have not tested it yourself?

The answer is very simple - I can't know for sure that the moon isn't made of cheese until I go there myself. However, knowing how cheese is made (having actually made some myself!), I find it unlikely that this process somehow accidentally happened in space to create the moon. So I would be doubtful of anyone who told me it was, even if they presented apparent scientific evidence to demonstrate this.

TKratz:You cannot test everything! Sometimes you simply have to rely on - well, science.

Indeed, but I would argue that (a) the actual evidence that I've seen on HDMI cable tests is far less conclusive than the moon rocks I've seen on TV which aren't made of cheese (though as pointed out, I can't be sure they come from the moon, so I still have to take this on trust), (b) testing your own HDMI cables is substantially easier and cheaper than travelling to the moon and (c) in my current scenario, whether the moon is or isn't made of cheese is fairly irrelevant to my day to day life.

 

[idc]

But I have proved 8 x 8 is 64 with a handy chart what I made up......

Here is more proof HDMI cables either work or do not work, from Which? magazine

When the Which? lab tested the following HDMI leads, the cheapest lead proved just as good as the most expensive:

• 
  A £10 Tesco Value HDMI lead
• 
  A £20 John Lewis HDMI lead
• 
  A £100 Belkin HDMI lead

"Amazingly, our expert viewers saw no
difference at all in the picture quality when using the three HDMI
leads, with our technical tests confirming identical performances. We
passed data through all our HDMI leads at 6.2Gb per second - a data rate
more demanding than Blu-ray - without a single error occurring. "

The proof for me is beyond reasonable doubt, which is as good as it is ever going to get.

 

[professorhat]

idc:But I have proved 8 x 8 is 64 with a handy chart what I made up......

Did you? Explain how this was proof?

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:jasonh:
In the world of A/V £40 is nothing if it's your hobby/passion etc. etc. etc. So go buy a £40 HDMI lead if there is a difference you can have peace of mind knowing you've covered all base's by getting the much reduced quality cable. Enjoy!

I fully agree here. I know some will be saying what I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm a retailer, but at the end of the day, some of us who've spent rather a lot of money, as well as time, building up our systems, feel very secure in the fact that we have spent a decent sum on the bits and bobs that connect them, whether they make a difference or not. Some of us that have gone for something more exotic, can relax to our systems, knowing in our heads that everything's fine.

Is there anything wrong in that? I myself changed my Chord Lo Pro HDMI cables to Active ones. Did I compare them? No. Did I see or hear any differences? I don't know, and I don't care. I just wanted to know in my mind that the cables connecting my stuff together are doing their job and not have to worry about anything. Have I wasted my money? Maybe, but if I have, shoot me.

I'm not here to tell people that there definitely is a difference - that's up to them to decide either way - I just hope people have come to this conclusion of their own accord rather than believing people who are just repeating what they've read on a forum and decided that's good enough for them.

We all have a choice.

david, isn't there a contradiction going on here? because you also said

Personally, i've seen differences in HDMI's. I'm not saying all HDMI's are different, but I've seen differences.

i'm confused

 

[idc]

professorhat:
idc:But I have proved 8 x 8 is 64 with a handy chart what I made up......

Did you? Explain how this was proof?

Get counting prof, there are 64 squares and the only way to get a 64 square chess board is with 8 down and 8 across. Now if you do not accept that as proof you do not understand proof (which you do, you are just being annoying

)

Now here is more proof HDMI cables make no difference. From a gaming site which took 4 HDMIs and measured a screen shot from Gran Turismo to see if there was any difference in the picture. I have summarised..
"The test involved taking a lossless 24-bit RGB screenshot of a 1080p game and running it through a PlayStation 3's photo viewer.

The cables used were a Monster 1000HD 2m cable which cost £72, a Microsoft 360 lead costing £30, a Sony PS3 for £18 and one for £1.50 off Amazon.

The comparison used something called a Hashcalc and the results were that all four cables transmitted an identical image."

 

[professorhat]

idc:Now if you do not accept that as proof you do not understand proof (which you do, you are just being annoying

)

Moi?!

 

[idc]

professorhat:
idc:Now if you do not accept that as proof you do not understand proof (which you do, you are just being annoying

)

Moi?!

Oui!

 

[BenLaw]

maxflinn:FrankHarveyHiFi:jasonh:

In the world of A/V £40 is nothing if it's your hobby/passion etc. etc. etc. So go buy a £40 HDMI lead if there is a difference you can have peace of mind knowing you've covered all base's by getting the much reduced quality cable. Enjoy!

I fully agree here. I know some will be saying what I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm a retailer, but at the end of the day, some of us who've spent rather a lot of money, as well as time, building up our systems, feel very secure in the fact that we have spent a decent sum on the bits and bobs that connect them, whether they make a difference or not. Some of us that have gone for something more exotic, can relax to our systems, knowing in our heads that everything's fine. Is there anything wrong in that? I myself changed my Chord Lo Pro HDMI cables to Active ones. Did I compare them? No. Did I see or hear any differences? I don't know, and I don't care. I just wanted to know in my mind that the cables connecting my stuff together are doing their job and not have to worry about anything. Have I wasted my money? Maybe, but if I have, shoot me. I'm not here to tell people that there definitely is a difference - that's up to them to decide either way - I just hope people have come to this conclusion of their own accord rather than believing people who are just repeating what they've read on a forum and decided that's good enough for them. We all have a choice.

david, isn't there a contradiction going on here? because you also said

Personally, i've seen differences in HDMI's. I'm not saying all HDMI's are different, but I've seen differences.

i'm confused

David making inconsistent statements? Even in the same thread?? Surely not?

 

[professorhat]

BenLaw:maxflinn:FrankHarveyHiFi:I myself changed my Chord Lo Pro HDMI cables to Active ones. Did I compare them? No. Did I see or hear any differences? I don't know, and I don't care.

david, isn't there a contradiction going on here? because you also said

Personally, i've seen differences in HDMI's. I'm not saying all HDMI's are different, but I've seen differences.

i'm confused

David making inconsistent statements? Even in the same thread?? Surely not?

I know this may seem astonishing, but those two statements from David could represent two different events...

 

[Frank Harvey]

TKratz:David, have you travelled to the moon to check what it is made of? Many people are convinced it is made of cheese. How can you know that is not true if you have not tested it yourself?
I'm not really interested in the moon as I'll never be going there. I'm trying to lay off cheeses anyway.

 

[Frank Harvey]

For the benefit of the ATC crew who seem to be on a mission to pick holes in everything I say (nothing new), there is nothing inconsistent about what I've said. I have seen differences in HDMI cables, but that doesn't mean you'll see a difference between every single one. There will be some that look no different.
Well done professorhat for being intelligent enough to notice. But then, professorhat isn't trying to trip me up.

Confused about what max?

And Ben, do feel free to point out anything else that I've said that's inconsistent. I take each peoples pled for advice on an individual basis. There is no single solution for everyone.

 

[Anonymous]

i wish i could afford to be part of the "atc crew", but for now i'm a member of the dynaudio mob

maybe someday...

confused that you seemed to be contradicting yourself david, but i accept that is not the case as has been pointed out

here's a challenge (i know you like them

) ..

you say, as indeed proffesorhat does (maybe he'll also take up my challenge), that you are sure that you have seen differences between hdmi cables.

now, if you can get hold of two cables that you believe offer different performance, shouldn't be hard, right?

compare both using the same scene from a blu-ray.

decide which is better, then using the supposed inferior cable, keep watching the same movie scene, i don't know, maybe 5 times.

and tell me if you see a consistent image or an inconsistent image? because the data that an inferior cable would have to be losing (if it wasn't losing data it would be as good as the other, apparently better cable) has to be random data..

if error correction worked, then one cable couldn't be different to another. people that claim to have seen differences must therefore acknowledge that there cannot be error correction, it would be a paradox to say otherwise

and if you can see a difference then "by definition" you should be able to see the inconsistencies (that would have to be there, because data loss is random and if error correction worked you couldn't have seen a difference in the first place) on repeat viewing..

if you don't see an inconsistent image with the "lesser" cable then you haven't initially seen a difference between them, to say otherwise would be another paradox..

to see differences between cables is to see inconsistencies with the lesser one, to not see inconsistencies is to not see a difference, the two are inextricably linked

 

[Frank Harvey]

I know you have Dynaudio, but you know what I meant

I'm not really one who can really be bothered to spend time trying different HDMI cables. And I don't have the time. I'd rather spend that time watching films and enjoying my system.

My original Lo Pros were all 3m in length, so I needed shorter ones anyway, and when the chance arose to change to the Actives, I took it. I really didn't care whether there was a real difference to be seen or heard, and I could be bothered doing any A/B testing. I just changed them and got on with enjoying the backlog of films that I had to watch.

When I watch my pin sharp picture on my projector, I know that it can't be improved upon without spending thousands. Top notch Bluray player, top notch cables, top notch projector. Which one's letting me down? None of them.

 

[michael hoy]

maxflinn:
here's a challenge (i know you like them

) ..

you say, as indeed proffesorhat does (maybe he'll also take up my challenge), that you are sure that you have seen differences between hdmi cables.

now, if you can get hold of two cables that you believe offer different performance, shouldn't be hard, right?

maxflinn,

I can pull one hdmi lead in particular off my shelf now and show anyone the difference between this one and the cable I am currently using.

The colours and brightness in this cable are different to my current and past cables, there is an increase in both areas and to me is un natural.

 

[Anonymous]

michael hoy:I can pull one hdmi lead in particular off my shelf now and show anyone the difference between this one and the cable I am currently using.
The colours and brightness in this cable are different to my current and past cables, there is an increase in both areas and to me is un natural. Whereas I can do the same and the picture the shows no differences whatsoever. So is your result unnatural, or mine?

Were I a physicist, I'd say in my case the experiment resulted in the expected outcome. Not sure what to make of yours.

 

[professorhat]

And I will again point you to what I said a few pages ago:

professorhat:As I said, I'm not looking to prove or disprove either theory here. Just explaining why you are never going to get scientific proof of either theory

If you feel the need to attempt to prove that different HDMI cables are all the same, go for it, it's your time. I was just trying to point out the fruitlessness of any such effort.

 

[Anonymous]

professorhat:
And I will again point you to what I said a few pages ago:

professorhat:As I said, I'm not looking to prove or disprove either theory here. Just explaining why you are never going to get scientific proof of either theory

If you feel the need to attempt to prove that different HDMI cables are all the same, go for it, it's your time. I was just trying to point out the fruitlessness of any such effort.On the contrary, the scientific proof is easy if you have the correct testing equipment. It's the subjective proof that is hard to prove by its very nature.

 

[Anonymous]

michael hoy:maxflinn:
here's a challenge (i know you like them

) ..

you say, as indeed proffesorhat does (maybe he'll also take up my challenge), that you are sure that you have seen differences between hdmi cables.

now, if you can get hold of two cables that you believe offer different performance, shouldn't be hard, right?

maxflinn,

I can pull one hdmi lead in particular off my shelf now and show anyone the difference between this one and the cable I am currently using.

The colours and brightness in this cable are different to my current and past cables, there is an increase in both areas and to me is un natural.

hi michael, if these differences are real, and you can clearly see them, then watch the same movie scene a few times using the cable that you deem inferior and you should see random errors that manifest themselves in different ways each time, ie an inconsistent image, perhaps sound.

if you don't find inconsistencies in the image/sound then the cable is not losing data and therefore it is simply not possible that it could be displaying an inferior image to the supposed better cable

this logic is sound imo..

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Maxflinn, an HDMI cable can be faulty though two cables that are not faulty will give the same results irrespective of the brand, cost, etc.

Perhaps it could be argued that the more you pay then the less likely the cable is to be faulty however £15 is enough to get a well made HDMI cable from a reputable brand.

Therefore if three cables are needed it is better to spend, say, £45 rather than, say, £150 and spend £100 or so more on the amp, BD player or discs.

Analogue is a different matter though.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:I know you have Dynaudio, but you know what I meant

I'm not really one who can really be bothered to spend time trying different HDMI cables. And I don't have the time. I'd rather spend that time watching films and enjoying my system.

My original Lo Pros were all 3m in length, so I needed shorter ones anyway, and when the chance arose to change to the Actives, I took it. I really didn't care whether there was a real difference to be seen or heard, and I could be bothered doing any A/B testing. I just changed them and got on with enjoying the backlog of films that I had to watch.

When I watch my pin sharp picture on my projector, I know that it can't be improved upon without spending thousands. Top notch Bluray player, top notch cables, top notch projector. Which one's letting me down? None of them.you could be using freebie cables and there would still be nothing letting you down

but i take your point, seeing as you have a great and expensive system, you want what you deem to be quality cabling throughout it. fair enough

 

[jase fox]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys can't tell differences between "out of the box" HDMI cables and high end specialist ones? I myself are with Michael on this, i currently use QED reference HDMI and the improvements where superb.
I also used to find high end scart leads better than the cheap £2.99 black ones, i suppose this is definately a case of each to there own.

And it's not just me and the Michael's of the world that see and hear these diff's with high end cables but even the WHSAV team?? We must all be drinking the same water as there's something clearly in it.