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Power cable

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ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Stop copy and pasting.

You can either show me good sound from cheap cabling or you cant. If you cant why not?
I can show you good sound from expensive cables so it should be easy to do the same??
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
Stop copy and pasting.

You can either show me good sound from cheap cabling or you cant. If you cant why not? I can show you good sound from expensive cables so it should be easy to do the same??
Hi,

This is about whether cables sound different. Your complaint is not about the subject in discussion. Science has proved expectation bias - hence the reason for DBT. You are changing the subject, and refuse to answer the challenge which can win you $1,000,000.

Again - proof can be presented if you take the James Randi test and claim $1,000,000.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Paste paste paste.

My complaint is when i go to listen to my hifi or demo another funnily enough I dont sit there and just look at some numbers I listen to some music on it.

Harmon Kardons extensive blind testing is all done in mono with just 1 speaker. 2 speakers allow too much variation.

Now while their testing is the most comprehensive in the industry i know if its not how I listen to music either funny enough.

So i need something simple - as simple as hearing really good sound quality relaxed and outside of the pressure of a $1million dollars being on the line.
How could i possibly cope and function normally under that much duress. I couldn't the amount on offer clearly designed to have that effect for sure.

But sitting down relaxed with a cup of tea listening to really good sound. I could do that all day. So why can't you show me.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
The $1M fund is for shooting down public personalities and opinion makers in the industry like Fermer, Atkinson, PFM etc. or manufacturers, not anonimous consumers like ellisdj. Sometimes there are open group tests organized for nobodies, but rarely. The whole idea is to run an awareness campaign, not actually test things. Old foxes know they will fail them so they don't try or give up in midst organizing an event. Those that tried denied validity of DBT completely post festum as something too hard or flawed etc.

So, yeah. "Why don't you do the $1,000,000.00 James Randi challenge if you are so sure about it" is not an argument in this instance.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
Vladimir said:
The $1M fund is for shooting down public personalities and opinion makers in the industry like Fermer, Atkinson, PFM etc. or manufacturers, not anonimous consumers like ellisdj. Sometimes there are open group tests organized for nobodies, but rarely. The whole idea is to run an awareness campaign, not actually test things. Old foxes know they will fail them so they don't try or give up in midst organizing an event. Those that tried denied validity of DBT completely post festum as something too hard or flawed etc.

So, yeah. "Why don't you do the $1,000,000.00 James Randi challenge if you are so sure about it" is not an argument in this instance.
Hi,

It is a test. There is no pressure as you have nothing to lose if you fail.

We only have people stating why they cannot take the test for all manner of reasons. No one is barred from taking the test. It is open to all.

It is really simple, take the test, pass or fail. You are expected to fail, so if you do, who cares. At least you have tried to prove you can hear the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
Paste paste paste.

My complaint is when i go to listen to my hifi or demo another funnily enough I dont sit there and just look at some numbers I listen to some music on it.

Harmon Kardons extensive blind testing is all done in mono with just 1 speaker. 2 speakers allow too much variation.

Now while their testing is the most comprehensive in the industry i know if its not how I listen to music either funny enough.

So i need something simple - as simple as hearing really good sound quality relaxed and outside of the pressure of a $1million dollars being on the line. How could i possibly cope and function normally under that much duress. I couldn't the amount on offer clearly designed to have that effect for sure.

But sitting down relaxed with a cup of tea listening to really good sound. I could do that all day. So why can't you show me.
Hi,

All you have to do is take a test, but the James Randi one offers a prize. This discussion is about whether cables sound different. You cannot change the subject which has been discussed and then complain no one is doing what you state. Start another thread on system sound, and let those interested in that respond.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
If you fail you lose a million dollars and all the costs to get and stay there.

But far worse than that is how it would lool on this forum.

How can anyone honestly function normally with a million on the line. No chance in hell.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
If you fail you lose a million dollars and all the costs to get and stay there.

But far worse than that is how it would lool on this forum.

How can anyone honestly function normally with a million on the line. No chance in hell.
Hi,

You cannot lose something you never had. If you know you can hear a difference, then it is obvious you must take the test.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
shadders said:
Vladimir said:
The $1M fund is for shooting down public personalities and opinion makers in the industry like Fermer, Atkinson, PFM etc. or manufacturers, not anonimous consumers like ellisdj. Sometimes there are open group tests organized for nobodies, but rarely. The whole idea is to run an awareness campaign, not actually test things. Old foxes know they will fail them so they don't try or give up in midst organizing an event. Those that tried denied validity of DBT completely post festum as something too hard or flawed etc.

So, yeah. "Why don't you do the $1,000,000.00 James Randi challenge if you are so sure about it" is not an argument in this instance.
Hi,

It is a test. There is no pressure as you have nothing to lose if you fail.

We only have people stating why they cannot take the test for all manner of reasons. No one is barred from taking the test. It is open to all.

It is really simple, take the test, pass or fail. You are expected to fail, so if you do, who cares. At least you have tried to prove you can hear the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
I know my english isn't brilliant, but how are you not understanding what I wrote.

You can't take the test. Call them up and they will ask your name, then laugh, then hang up.

It's not a lab or scientific research institute. It's an awareness campaign, and to have any sort of impact they must use their limited resources effectively on public individuals. Not internet keyboard warriors and daft dentists in Surrey.

But if someone wants to test their gear, there is free ABX software. No reward except saving you thousands of pounds wasted on snake oil.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
I know you should be able to show me but your not willing, cant fathom that out unless you work in the industry and there happens to be some sort of conflict of interest here??
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
Vladimir said:
shadders said:
Vladimir said:
The $1M fund is for shooting down public personalities and opinion makers in the industry like Fermer, Atkinson, PFM etc. or manufacturers, not anonimous consumers like ellisdj. Sometimes there are open group tests organized for nobodies, but rarely. The whole idea is to run an awareness campaign, not actually test things. Old foxes know they will fail them so they don't try or give up in midst organizing an event. Those that tried denied validity of DBT completely post festum as something too hard or flawed etc.

So, yeah. "Why don't you do the $1,000,000.00 James Randi challenge if you are so sure about it" is not an argument in this instance.
Hi,

It is a test. There is no pressure as you have nothing to lose if you fail.

We only have people stating why they cannot take the test for all manner of reasons. No one is barred from taking the test. It is open to all.

It is really simple, take the test, pass or fail. You are expected to fail, so if you do, who cares. At least you have tried to prove you can hear the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
I know my english isn't brilliant, but how are you not understanding what I wrote.

You can't take the test. Call them up and they will ask your name, then laugh, then hang up.

It's not a lab or scientific research institute. It's an awareness campaign, and to have any sort of impact they must use their limited resources effectively on public individuals. Not internet keyboard warriors and daft dentists in Surrey.

But if someone wants to test their gear, there is free ABX software. No reward except saving you thousands of pounds wasted on snake oil.
Hi,

Ok, so not open to anyone. Still, people can still take a test with relevant preparation.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
I know you should be able to show me but your not willing, cant fathom that out unless you work in the industry and there happens to be some sort of conflict of interest here??
Hi,

There is no conflict of interest. I do not work in the audio industry.

This is a discussion on cable sound - are they different. This is all I have been responding to, with all the extensive various approaches to analyse possibilities.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Well the other side to the arguement is "we can hear it" - so I am saying if I am from the camp of person that "I need to hear it for myself", then I need to hear it for myself.

You want measurements and ABX blah blah - thats fine, I am easy I just want to hear it for myself

So I am asking you to show me because its us who always argues and sadly DaveH discounted himself as he addmitted to loathing me, so that leaves pretty much you to do it.

I am sure if I asked you to show me the measurements of different cables you would - so why when I ask you to show me really good sound from cheap cables you wont?

Because here in lies the rub - its all about sound quality, thats what were here for, not numbers, words or other BS - just sound quality.

So what needs proving is that its possible to create the very best sound quality possible from domestic sound systems with a system all wired up with the cheapest cables fit to do their jobs.

That is what we need - that is what everyone who uses and buys upmarket cables needs to hear - once they hear that they wont buy another upmarket cable in their life, because what will be the point.

However ALL the best sound I have heard from domestic systems has had upgraded cables in the systems in one fashion on another. I have heard expensive systems wired up with cheap cabling but they are not in my top ranking experiences so they dont count otherwise I already would sold mine and bought 79 strand.

So why you need what you need I simply need what I need too.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
Well the other side to the arguement is "we can hear it" - so I am saying if I am from the camp of person that "I need to hear it for myself", then I need to hear it for myself.

You want measurements and ABX blah blah - thats fine, I am easy I just want to hear it for myself

So I am asking you to show me because its us who always argues and sadly DaveH discounted himself as he addmitted to loathing me, so that leaves pretty much you to do it.

I am sure if I asked you to show me the measurements of different cables you would - so why when I ask you to show me really good sound from cheap cables you wont?

Because here in lies the rub - its all about sound quality, thats what were here for, not numbers, words or other BS - just sound quality.

So what needs proving is that its possible to create the very best sound quality possible from domestic sound systems with a system all wired up with the cheapest cables fit to do their jobs.

That is what we need - that is what everyone who uses and buys upmarket cables needs to hear - once they hear that they wont buy another upmarket cable in their life, because what will be the point.

However ALL the best sound I have heard from domestic systems has had upgraded cables in the systems in one fashion on another. I have heard expensive systems wired up with cheap cabling but they are not in my top ranking experiences so they dont count otherwise I already would sold mine and bought 79 strand.

So why you need what you need I simply need what I need too.
Hi,

As highlighted above, this is about difference in cables, whether mains or speaker (added later).

If one claims that they can hear the difference, then the burden is on the claimant to prove that they can hear the difference. The method for this is DBT. Science states you cannot hear the difference, so the claimant has to prove their claim.

How good the system sound quality requires a different thread of that subject, and it will be subjective. There is no proof in stating one system sound quality is better than another since it is subjective.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
shadders said:
Vladimir said:
shadders said:
Vladimir said:
The $1M fund is for shooting down public personalities and opinion makers in the industry like Fermer, Atkinson, PFM etc. or manufacturers, not anonimous consumers like ellisdj. Sometimes there are open group tests organized for nobodies, but rarely. The whole idea is to run an awareness campaign, not actually test things. Old foxes know they will fail them so they don't try or give up in midst organizing an event. Those that tried denied validity of DBT completely post festum as something too hard or flawed etc.

So, yeah. "Why don't you do the $1,000,000.00 James Randi challenge if you are so sure about it" is not an argument in this instance.
Hi,

It is a test. There is no pressure as you have nothing to lose if you fail.

We only have people stating why they cannot take the test for all manner of reasons. No one is barred from taking the test. It is open to all.

It is really simple, take the test, pass or fail. You are expected to fail, so if you do, who cares. At least you have tried to prove you can hear the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
I know my english isn't brilliant, but how are you not understanding what I wrote.

You can't take the test. Call them up and they will ask your name, then laugh, then hang up.

It's not a lab or scientific research institute. It's an awareness campaign, and to have any sort of impact they must use their limited resources effectively on public individuals. Not internet keyboard warriors and daft dentists in Surrey.

But if someone wants to test their gear, there is free ABX software. No reward except saving you thousands of pounds wasted on snake oil.
Hi,

Ok, so not open to anyone. Still, people can still take a test with relevant preparation.

Regards,

Shadders.
Hi,

Link below states anyome :

http://gizmodo.com/305549/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better

Can you provide a link stating not everyone can apply ?. Thanks.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
Hi,

Not a cop out. If someone makes the claim they can hear differences between cable, then they can prove this via DBT.

I do not understand why someone who makes the claim, knowing that they will fail a DBT, does not want to take the DBT.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
I dont understand someone saying cheap cables are good enough doesnt to show it?

Its exacly the same - in blind testing noone gets it right - thats for all things test amps, cd players the lot, even speakers. So its obviously a difficult thing to do - its also difficult to setup and a lot of hassle to make it to a standard you would accept.

Whats easy is demoing really good sound from all cheap cables - that should be no hassle and very easy for you to show
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
I dont understand someone saying cheap cables are good enough doesnt to show it?

Its exacly the same - in blind testing noone gets it right - thats for all things test amps, cd players the lot, even speakers. So its obviously a difficult thing to do - its also difficult to setup and a lot of hassle to make it to a standard you would accept.

Whats easy is demoing really good sound from all cheap cables - that should be no hassle and very easy for you to show
Hi,

This is because, from a materials science and an electrical/engineering performance analysis, cheap cables are EXACTLY the same as expensive cables. Just because someone charges a lot of money for a cable, and TELLS you they are better, does NOT make them better. Even QED 79 strand is OFC.

This is the entire point of DBT. People who claim that they can hear a difference must prove they hear a difference using DBT. It removes expectation bias and fraud.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

daveh75

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2008
595
29
18,920
ellisdj said:
So I am asking you to show me because its us who always argues and sadly DaveH discounted himself as he addmitted to loathing me, so that leaves pretty much you to do it.
I know you have bit of a habit for misquoting people, and even think it's amusing to do so, but don't put words in my mouth!

I think you're terminally ignorant, deluded, cocky, tiresome and ultimately a bit of knob, but nowhere did i admit to loathing you...
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
We are here for music and to listen to music.

In ABX bind testing that Harmon do they have to train their testers to hear what they need to in order to select the right answers. They have to be trained.

So someone random going to a blind test in conditons completely unfamiliar they have no chance unless they have been trained - one tester proves nothing anyway - luck good or bad.

You might as well just save the hassle do a normal listening test. I am game when you are
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
daveh75 said:
I think you're terminally ignorant, deluded, cocky, tiresome and ultimately a bit of knob, but nowhere did i admit to loathing you...
did you not just do that? LOL

Banter is wasted again
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.

In ABX bind testing that Harmon do they have to train their testers to hear what they need to in order to select the right answers. They have to be trained.

So someone random going to a blind test in conditons completely unfamiliar they have no chance unless they have been trained - one tester proves nothing anyway - luck good or bad.

You might as well just save the hassle do a normal listening test. I am game when you are
Hi,

This thread is about whether cables sound different or not.

You are discussing a different subject, which i cannot comment upon. The quality of your system or any other etc., is subjective. What you believe to be great, may not sound so for me, and vice versa.

Whether cables sound different, is the point in discussion. If someone claims that cables sound different, then the burden of proof is upon them. Science and information presented in this thread states that people cannot tell the difference, despite the claims.

As such - only a DBT can prove or disprove that they can hear differences.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Hifi is sound reproduction with specific interest to sound quality.

There can be many forms of good sound - but good sound is still that - and average quality is very much that and so on. Listen to familiar music and you can associate to your own reference for that music - everyone can do that.

Blind testing proves noone can hear the difference between amps, cd players and even speakers so what does it matter what system either of us have got? The boxes are irrelevant because in a blind test we couldnt tell them apart. And you made your own stuff so how can I have previous prejudice against DIY? Lintwitz made all his own - noone thinks bad about him and his stuff.

My boxes are all AV - they cant possibly sound any good so you have nothing to worry about if you think were comparing which were not. We are just seeing if it can be done
 

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