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Power cable

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shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
Hifi is sound reproduction with specific interest to sound quality.

There can be many forms of good sound - but good sound is still that - and average quality is very much that and so on. Listen to familiar music and you can associate to your own reference for that music - everyone can do that.

Blind testing proves noone can hear the difference between amps, cd players and even speakers so what does it matter what system either of us have got? The boxes are irrelevant because in a blind test we couldnt tell them apart. And you made your own stuff so how can I have previous prejudice against DIY? Lintwitz made all his own - noone thinks bad about him and his stuff.

My boxes are all AV - they cant possibly sound any good so you have nothing to worry about if you think were comparing which were not. We are just seeing if it can be done
Hi,

Do you have a scientific reference where people cannot tell the difference with speakers?

Whatever the system, sound quality is subjective, and the comparison will not provide any indication that people can hear differences between cables, which is the subject of this thread.

If DBT shows that people cannot determine the difference between equipment, that is adequately specified, then perhaps, we are all fooling oneself. Perhaps we humans are not as good at discerning differences as we might claim.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
The Spanish hifi show blind test?
The one where 38 trained listeners couldn't tell a $700 system from a $12000 system?
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Shadders

Video 1 - Floyd Toole Lecture about testing of speakers.

I cant remember the exact time references but he covers a lot of topics in this lecture.

Part of it is on the blind testing of Harmon employees and they apparently all get it wrong - didnt guess their favoured speakers as in their sighted tests.

Lots in there from 30 years of blind testing speakers and how and why speakers do and dont measure / sound good.

Then this is the other main chap from Harmon being interviewed.

He mentions a few things as well.

Lots to watch but very interesting stuff in them
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
shadders said:
If DBT shows that people cannot determine the difference between equipment, that is adequately specified, then perhaps, we are all fooling oneself. Perhaps we humans are not as good at discerning differences as we might claim.
Well so we end up back to square one - which is where I am - so you might as well just do sighted tests when it comes to just listening and seeing if you think its good sound or not.

You can be consumed by the variables of it all - or just listen to a lot of system and kit and see how it compares from your memory. Is what it all is anyway.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
Shadders

Video 1 - Floyd Toole Lecture about testing of speakers.

I cant remember the exact time references but he covers a lot of topics in this lecture.

Part of it is on the blind testing of Harmon employees and they apparently all get it wrong - didnt guess their favoured speakers as in their sighted tests.

Lots in there from 30 years of blind testing speakers and how and why speakers do and dont measure / sound good.

Then this is the other main chap from Harmon being interviewed.

He mentions a few things as well.

Lots to watch but very interesting stuff in them
Hi,

I have not watched, but, if through blind testing, we cannot determine differences, on the main components such as speakers, then we are not, as humans, adequately capable of deciding.

If this is true, then it can never be possible to hear the difference between cables. Speakers have such a large variation in performance across the audio frequency range, whereas cables are perfectly flat.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
They are interesting videos - one is from a leading researcher of sound in rooms. You should watch them Shadders you will absorb it all probably first go. Might help with your DIY speakers as well. Its all about power response
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
shadders said:
If DBT shows that people cannot determine the difference between equipment, that is adequately specified, then perhaps, we are all fooling oneself. Perhaps we humans are not as good at discerning differences as we might claim.
Well so we end up back to square one - which is where I am - so you might as well just do sighted tests when it comes to just listening and seeing if you think its good sound or not.

You can be consumed by the variables of it all - or just listen to a lot of system and kit and see how it compares from your memory. Is what it all is anyway.
Hi,

I think the importance of this has not been understood. As per my post immediately above, if one cannot tell the difference between speakers, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE to determine the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
shadders said:
ellisdj said:
shadders said:
If DBT shows that people cannot determine the difference between equipment, that is adequately specified, then perhaps, we are all fooling oneself. Perhaps we humans are not as good at discerning differences as we might claim.
Well so we end up back to square one - which is where I am - so you might as well just do sighted tests when it comes to just listening and seeing if you think its good sound or not.

You can be consumed by the variables of it all - or just listen to a lot of system and kit and see how it compares from your memory.  Is what it all is anyway.
Hi,

I think the importance of this has not been understood. As per my post immediately above, if one cannot tell the difference between speakers,  then it will be IMPOSSIBLE to determine the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
Watch the video its a uni lecture it will be technical enough for you.

Once trained they could tell the difference but employees of the company initially got it wrong.

They test speakers in mono only with a very clever machine system that puts the selected speaker in the correct spot within seconds of the choice. I think they test 4 at a time. And its only with select music designed to highlight the differences.

And they tried all different shape and sized rooms anf all different listeners age and demographic.

Properly comprehensive all so they could model the sound people like so they can make speakers to sound that way.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
shadders said:
ellisdj said:
shadders said:
If DBT shows that people cannot determine the difference between equipment, that is adequately specified, then perhaps, we are all fooling oneself. Perhaps we humans are not as good at discerning differences as we might claim.
Well so we end up back to square one - which is where I am - so you might as well just do sighted tests when it comes to just listening and seeing if you think its good sound or not.

You can be consumed by the variables of it all - or just listen to a lot of system and kit and see how it compares from your memory.  Is what it all is anyway.
Hi,

I think the importance of this has not been understood. As per my post immediately above, if one cannot tell the difference between speakers,  then it will be IMPOSSIBLE to determine the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
Or even a $700 system from a $12000 system
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
So if a pro listener needs training to identify speakers in a perfectly controlled abx test situation. So its only fair to say anyone else is going to need training to be successful in a blind test situation.

So someone failing a blind test like the spanish one is not such a shock.

However what is repetiton if not a form of training.

You listen for many hours at home and hear the same sound a lot.
Does that make it more viable that people hear the differences at home they dont in a blind test.

Certainly seems a plausible explanation.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
ellisdj said:
So if a pro listener needs training to identify speakers in a perfectly controlled abx test situation. So its only fair to say anyone else is going to need training to be successful in a blind test situation.

So someone failing a blind test like the spanish one is not such a shock.

However what is repetiton if not a form of training.

You listen for many hours at home and hear the same sound a lot.
Does that make it more viable that people hear the differences at home they dont in a blind test.

Certainly seems a plausible explanation.
The article stated that the 38 participants were indeed trained listeners (not that I believe there is such a thing)
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Experienced listener or a blind test trained listener.

Very different things according to Harmon.

Think about a time when you have gone out got in the car started it up and without even paying attention noticed something is not right - by the sound.

Even as a non trained mechanic ear the difference grabs your attention. Other people must have had similar experiences to that.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
shadders said:
ellisdj said:
shadders said:
If DBT shows that people cannot determine the difference between equipment, that is adequately specified, then perhaps, we are all fooling oneself. Perhaps we humans are not as good at discerning differences as we might claim.
Well so we end up back to square one - which is where I am - so you might as well just do sighted tests when it comes to just listening and seeing if you think its good sound or not.

You can be consumed by the variables of it all - or just listen to a lot of system and kit and see how it compares from your memory. Is what it all is anyway.
Hi,

I think the importance of this has not been understood. As per my post immediately above, if one cannot tell the difference between speakers, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE to determine the difference between cables.

Regards,

Shadders.
Watch the video its a uni lecture it will be technical enough for you.

Once trained they could tell the difference but employees of the company initially got it wrong.

They test speakers in mono only with a very clever machine system that puts the selected speaker in the correct spot within seconds of the choice. I think they test 4 at a time. And its only with select music designed to highlight the differences.

And they tried all different shape and sized rooms anf all different listeners age and demographic.

Properly comprehensive all so they could model the sound people like so they can make speakers to sound that way.
Hi,

OK - so if it can be accomplished with speakers - you referred to the issue that they cannot with speakers in your post 875 :

Blind testing proves noone can hear the difference between amps, cd players and even speakers so what does it matter what system either of us have got? The boxes are irrelevant because in a blind test we couldnt tell them apart.

Then train the people and let them determine the difference between cables. Either way, a DBT is relevant or not. If not then the reasons need to be stated with scientific proof.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
That is the scientific proof and it proves that the abx participant needs training for the test to get the test correct.

However as I just said repetition is training I can think of no better training method than repetiton? That must be a major factor because as humans we seem to be able to detect change from the norm. No idea how long the norm needs to be though.

Relevance to hifi.

Someone must have made multiple changes to their system all at once.
You find yourself in a position where its difficult to isolate the changes to the sound because your point reference for it is changed so much and it takes time and more repetiton to get a handle of how the sound is now to be able to analyse it properly
Surely everyone has experienced that before?
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
That is the scientific proof and it proves that the abx participant needs training for the test to get the test correct.

However as I just said repetition is training I can think of no better training method than repetiton? That must be a major factor because as humans we seem to be able to detect change from the norm. No idea how long the norm needs to be though.

Relevance to hifi.

Someone must have made multiple changes to their system all at once. You find yourself in a position where its difficult to isolate the changes to the sound because your point reference for it is changed so much and it takes time and more repetiton to get a handle of how the sound is now to be able to analyse it properly Surely everyone has experienced that before?
Hi,

OK - so someone needs to be trained.

This does not change the fact that the changes introduced by a cable are so small that the human senses cannot determine that change.

Can a human hear the difference in a signal, if that signal is modified by a single electron ?. Of course not.

Can a human hear a change in a signal if that signal amplitude changes by a factor of 2 ?. Probably can determine the change.

So there are degrees of change, from the largest detectable by a human, to the smallest detectable by a human.

Therefore, even if a person has been trained, they will not be able to determine the change of a cable. DBT will be the scientifically proven mechanism to ensure that the results of testing are correct, and the detected changes are not due to chance.

Whatever you state - whatever video you present, no one has ever been able to prove that changes to a cable can be heard. This issue has been studied for many years - if it was possible, then it would not need to be discussed, as the proof will be available. There is a finite limit to the human auditory senses.

If you want to claim that cable changes can be heard, then why not train yourself and take a DBT ?

Regards,

Shadders.
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
47
0
0
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha..

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
lpv said:
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha..

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
I'm a member there, just can't recall when and why I joined. I do remember making the shark fin favicon.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
If it is deemed essential to be a so called trained listener in order to differentiate between any form of audio equipment, it stands to reason that none of us are qualified to say that our, or indeed any, system is good or not?
We may be happy with the sound but as we are untrained fools we are in no position to judge because we apparently have no idea what we should be hearing?
Really?
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Vladimir said:
lpv said:
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha.. 

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
I'm a member there, just can't recall when and why I joined. I do remember making the shark fin favicon.
So glad you came back
To this forum
I really enjoy your posts
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
I wanted to break Shadders post down but I am too much of a lemon

so sorry is this doesnt make sense - likely to trigger someone who expects it

Shadders you said a magazine was able to hear the differences in 12 different cables with slightly different inductance - so small changes seem to be audible from that test? Unlike what you just said

----

In the Nordost video that you probably didnt watch they say the Radar specialists research has shown humans can hear to factor of 1 I am pretty sure he said - so small changes are noticeable.

2 perfect examples - I bet a systems measures very simialr when you first turn it on to after an hours playback - but I bet it sounds a lot different after that hour.

Another example - people have said closing their curtains makes their system sound better when even though measuring the effect of that would be negligable to non existent. So small changes in measurements are maybe perceived as much larger when we are trained / conditoned to a certain sound.

-----

Unfortunately I am not in a position to train myself to take DBT - who is really. come off it thats just nonsensical to suggest it. How do you get facilities like whats at Harmon - $Millions of dollars worth of facilities to do testing properly. They havent tested cables because they do not sell them.

Sadly atm I cant give you anymore measurement science than I have - however you or no one can or is willing to prove great sound is possible with all really cheap cables either so until someone does I will keep mine in my system ready to show you what its all about when you are ready to for Show and Tel
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
Andrewjvt said:
Vladimir said:
lpv said:
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha..

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
I'm a member there, just can't recall when and why I joined. I do remember making the shark fin favicon.
So glad you came back To this forum I really enjoy your posts
Every community needs a loudmouth. *blush*
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
lpv said:
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha.. 

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
Thanks I will check it out. Sounds like a place where real audiophiles go....
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
Vladimir said:
Andrewjvt said:
Vladimir said:
lpv said:
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha..

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
I'm a member there, just can't recall when and why I joined. I do remember making the shark fin favicon.
So glad you came back To this forum I really enjoy your posts
Every community needs a loudmouth. *blush*
*drinks* good to have google search back *smile*

i just noticed something you sig says you do not own any hifi what about that lovely technics su770 then .

come on be proud and put it on your signature
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
Vladimir said:
Andrewjvt said:
Vladimir said:
lpv said:
ellisdj said:
We are here for music and to listen to music.
haha..

why don't you go on audio shark forum and talk about cables with like minded music lovers? they would love you and understand you once you would confess all the cables owned
I'm a member there, just can't recall when and why I joined. I do remember making the shark fin favicon.
So glad you came back To this forum I really enjoy your posts
Every community needs a loudmouth. *blush*
*drinks* good to have google search back *smile*

i just noticed something you sig says you do not own any hifi what about that lovely technics su770 then .

come on be proud and put it on your signature
I only have cheap junk that makes sound. Wont be in the hifi game until next year. House renovations almost finished.
 

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