Power cable

[Vladimir]

With regards to mains cables, I would say it is something you need to try. I wouldn't say that just any specialist mains cable will make a difference, and it depends on the system in question as to whether any difference will be heard or be of any benefit. I remember when I was working at Superfi in Birmingham, I borrowed a specialist mains cable (about £110 worth) from a Derby based person who was manager of the Superfi branch in Derby, who was well into cables at that point...

No blind test, but it made a difference plugged into the Tag pre-amp. My system at the time was a Pioneer DV737 digital source, Tag AV32R 192, Bryston 3Bst, KEF Reference 4.2.

I'm surprised no one pulled me up about this post! I stated here that I did hear a difference. Sighted too!

That's OK. I hear differences in cables and CD players and DACs. Our senses can fool us, no one is immune. And sometimes there are actual audible differences and are explainable in engineering terms. Some gear is made to sound different, because, yes, different sells.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Believe it or not David, I was about to write in that post that I respect an off tune tone deaf 7 y/o girl practicing the piano more than Rick Rubins whole career. What are the odds of you mentioning him in the reply! Weird!

 

[Frank Harvey]

That's OK. I hear differences in cables and CD players and DACs. Our senses can fool us, no one is immune. And sometimes there are actual audible differences and are explainable in engineering terms. Some gear is made to sound different, because, yes, different sells.

There was no fooling in this instance, I heard a difference. Although, I didn't like that difference, so didn't buy the cable. Was I expecting to hear something worse than the bog standard cable that came with the Tag? No, I expected it to be better. Expectation bias was left at the door with my boots (maybe I should've kept them on?)

 

[Vladimir]

That's OK. I hear differences in cables and CD players and DACs. Our senses can fool us, no one is immune. And sometimes there are actual audible differences and are explainable in engineering terms. Some gear is made to sound different, because, yes, different sells.

There was no fooling in this instance, I heard a difference. Although, I didn't like that difference, so didn't buy the cable. Was I expecting to hear something worse than the bog standard cable that came with the Tag? No, I expected it to be better. Expectation bias was left at the door with my boots (maybe I should've kept them on?)

Your head must be pretty large considering you have an osciloscope and super linear microphones embedded in it.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

Probably - but when you realise how much the cable costs, even one with a bit of silver in it - the margins are extremely vast.

I have a transformer - 1kVA, and there is a lot of copper in it - cost me £70. When you know the releative cost of copper - you have to ask yourself why a cable costs so much.

Example - 1kg of copper scrap will cost £3.90 at most. There is probably in a 2metre cable 1/10th of this - 100grams - so 39p. Lets us assume double this - 78p.

Ignoring the silver content - or assume it is very low - people are paying £3,800 for copper material cost of less than £1.

This is why people make "special" cables - there is a lot of money to be made from believers.

Regards,

Shadders.

Your 1kVA transformer may well be the result of large scale production, where materials are bought in tons rather than in small quantities. They'll be sold in large quantities too, hence a lower margin made by the manufacturer. Someone who decides to start making his own cables, from scratch, has initial costs to cover, tooling costs etc, and has to take into account that the production time of each cable compared to the amount of likely sales. That's before we get into any initial (and maybe ongoing) R&D costs.

The same oversights are seen when people quote the higher costs from UK distributors. That distributor has to buy the products they're distributing in large quantities in order for UK residents to get product quickly. They also have to provide stalrage for these large quantities. They have to provide a service department for these products, and that's before we get into marketing them and paying to attend shows like Bristol etc, which isn't cheap. You want to read up about the products on a website? You want reviews to read? You want retailers so you can see them in the flesh and hear them? You want a decent warranty? You want telephone support from that distributor? All adds up.

Some cable manufacturers offer lifetime warranties (non abuse). How often will you get that?

Hi,

Cable manufacturers have their processes well defined - and they have a wealth of experience in providing a turnkey solution for small quantities. No one starts a cable manufacturing business now - they will use existing manufacturers and specify their cable design to them. There are no tooling costs. A family friend used to work for a cable company - this was back in the late 70's - he was on the production side - shop floor - i remember he was relaying the issue where people from another company wanted smaller sheath - he stated that it would fail due to the specific reasons - the other company insisted - and the flaws appeared as predicted. Cable manufacturers know their stuff.

R&D costs are minimal - the cable manufacturers have this information. The cable manufacturers will bear many of the costs you have mentioned as it is their business to stock the raw materials, or if not, have it on a call off contract.

In the end, it is a bit of wire. No need for telephone support - it is a bit of wire. As long as it is specified correctly - it is not going to melt, break, have fatigue, increase in resistance etc. It is just a bit of wire. You cannot get any other product which will have such a low investment in support - they do not go wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[lpv]

trent park (australian street photographer) developed his black and white films at the back of a truck and then dried them on a tree so all sort of sand, dust and **** could possibly touch the surface and damage the emultion, yet his images are one of the most iconic and top dollar works.. at the same time amateur film photographers at home touch their films in white gloves, dust mask in a room with the right humidity..

 

[Andrewjvt]

trent park (australian street photographer) developed his black and white films at the back of a truck and then dried them on a tree so all sort of sand, dust and **** could possibly touch the surface and damage the emultion, yet his images are one of the most iconic and top dollar works.. at the same time amateur film photographers at home touch their films in white gloves, dust mask in a room with the right humidity..

Thats totally the point.
Same for placebophiles and power cables.

Very good point.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi,

Cable manufacturers have their processes well defined - and they have a wealth of experience in providing a turnkey solution for small quantities. No one starts a cable manufacturing business now - they will use existing manufacturers and specify their cable design to them. There are no tooling costs. A family friend used to work for a cable company - this was back in the late 70's - he was on the production side - shop floor - i remember he was relaying the issue where people from another company wanted smaller sheath - he stated that it would fail due to the specific reasons - the other company insisted - and the flaws appeared as predicted. Cable manufacturers know their stuff.

R&D costs are minimal - the cable manufacturers have this information. The cable manufacturers will bear many of the costs you have mentioned as it is their business to stock the raw materials, or if not, have it on a call off contract.

In the end, it is a bit of wire. No need for telephone support - it is a bit of wire. As long as it is specified correctly - it is not going to melt, break, have fatigue, increase in resistance etc. It is just a bit of wire. You cannot get any other product which will have such a low investment in support - they do not go wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

But again, your whole post is making a lot of assumptions about the company/individual under discussion and how they have designed and how they produce their cables. We don't know, so no one can say.

Most of my post was referring to UK distributors in the hi-fi industry and what they have to provide, hence the costs involved. Only the first half of the main paragraph and the very last sentence at the bottom are referring to cable manufacturers. I'll edit the post to differentiate.

 

[Vladimir]

trent park (australian street photographer) developed his black and white films at the back of a truck and then dried them on a tree so all sort of sand, dust and **** could possibly touch the surface and damage the emultion, yet his images are one of the most iconic and top dollar works.. at the same time amateur film photographers at home touch their films in white gloves, dust mask in a room with the right humidity..

The wabbit hole. Watch after 27:17

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi,

Probably - but when you realise how much the cable costs, even one with a bit of silver in it - the margins are extremely vast.

I have a transformer - 1kVA, and there is a lot of copper in it - cost me £70. When you know the releative cost of copper - you have to ask yourself why a cable costs so much.

Example - 1kg of copper scrap will cost £3.90 at most. There is probably in a 2metre cable 1/10th of this - 100grams - so 39p. Lets us assume double this - 78p.

Ignoring the silver content - or assume it is very low - people are paying £3,800 for copper material cost of less than £1.

This is why people make "special" cables - there is a lot of money to be made from believers.

Regards,

Shadders.

Your 1kVA transformer may well be the result of large scale production, where materials are bought in tons rather than in small quantities. They'll be sold in large quantities too, hence a lower margin made by the manufacturer. Someone who decides to start making his own cables, from scratch, has initial costs to cover, tooling costs etc, and has to take into account that the production time of each cable compared to the amount of likely sales. That's before we get into any initial (and maybe ongoing) R&D costs.

The same oversights are seen when people quote the higher costs from UK distributors. That distributor has to buy the products they're distributing in large quantities in order for UK residents to get product quickly. They also have to provide stalrage for these large quantities. They have to provide a service department for these products, and that's before we get into marketing them and paying to attend shows like Bristol etc, which isn't cheap. You want to read up about the products on a website? You want reviews to read? You want retailers so you can see them in the flesh and hear them? You want a decent warranty? You want telephone support from that distributor? All adds up.

Some cable manufacturers offer lifetime warranties (non abuse). How often will you get that?

 

[shadders]

Hi,

Cable manufacturers have their processes well defined - and they have a wealth of experience in providing a turnkey solution for small quantities. No one starts a cable manufacturing business now - they will use existing manufacturers and specify their cable design to them. There are no tooling costs. A family friend used to work for a cable company - this was back in the late 70's - he was on the production side - shop floor - i remember he was relaying the issue where people from another company wanted smaller sheath - he stated that it would fail due to the specific reasons - the other company insisted - and the flaws appeared as predicted. Cable manufacturers know their stuff.

R&D costs are minimal - the cable manufacturers have this information. The cable manufacturers will bear many of the costs you have mentioned as it is their business to stock the raw materials, or if not, have it on a call off contract.

In the end, it is a bit of wire. No need for telephone support - it is a bit of wire. As long as it is specified correctly - it is not going to melt, break, have fatigue, increase in resistance etc. It is just a bit of wire. You cannot get any other product which will have such a low investment in support - they do not go wrong.

Regards,

Shadders.

But again, your whole post is making a lot of assumptions about the company/individual under discussion and how they have designed and how they produce their cables. We don't know, so no one can say.

Most of my post was referring to UK distributors in the hi-fi industry and what they have to provide, hence the costs involved. Only the first half of the main paragraph and the very last sentence at the bottom are referring to cable manufacturers. I'll edit the post to differentiate.

Hi,

No - not assumptions. I could alternatively state you have made assumptions on the company making their own cable from scratch. Check the following link :

http://www.aeicables.co.uk/

The company has a wealth of knowledge and experience - so a bespoke solution will be progressed.

The cable i am referring to as suggested by another poster is only available in the UK from one supplier :

http://www.renaissanceaudio.co.uk/

So no distribution issues - single outlet.

Or as an aside :

http://www.doncastercables.com/cables/7/22/Speaker/Stereo-Twin-Speaker-Cable--fig-8-/

Which quotes :

"79 strands of 0.2mm oxygen free copper. The conductors are constructed in a flat 'figure of 8' configuration. The insulation is black/white in colour. Designed for use in connecting loudspeakers to audio appliances and amplifiers. he general rule of speaker cable is the more strands that the cable has, the better the sound quality. Including higher definition, a richer bass and more musical highs"

EDIT : To add :

http://www.customdesignedcable.co.uk/

Which states :

" 5 Simple steps from enquiry to delivery
We receive the initial enquiry.We will provide a free consultation to discuss the application, the operating requirements and also the performance requirements.Within 24 hours of this discussion, we will provide an initial design proposal with suitable materials. You will receive a detailed technical datasheet along with a quotation.After review of the datasheet and quotation, an order is then placed. You will receive an acknowledgement confirming the delivery date.We will manufacture the cable to the specification outlined within the datasheet and the finished product will be delivered on the specified delivery date.[/list]
"

Everyone makes subjective statements. There is no evidence that a cable can make a sound with richer bass. What does richer bass mean ?. It means one thing to one person, and another thing to another person.

In the end, different sounding cables is just subjective marketing talk. The cable suppliers will say anything to get you to buy their product, and the more subjective and intangible it is - then the more easier it is to fool people - no hard science required. And you can charge exorbitant fees too - so there is an upside.......

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Again, I wasn't talking about distribution issues with regards to cable manufacturers! Please do read and understand my posts correctly!

Anyway, as I say, I'm going to get a listen to them. Which again, is more than some in this thread will do. I'm intrigued as Abbey Road deem them good enough to use in their studios. I'm curious, nothing more.

 

[Oldphrt]

That's OK. I hear differences in cables and CD players and DACs. Our senses can fool us, no one is immune. And sometimes there are actual audible differences and are explainable in engineering terms. Some gear is made to sound different, because, yes, different sells.

There was no fooling in this instance, I heard a difference. Although, I didn't like that difference, so didn't buy the cable. Was I expecting to hear something worse than the bog standard cable that came with the Tag? No, I expected it to be better. Expectation bias was left at the door with my boots (maybe I should've kept them on?)

If you are referring to a mains cable that is the placebo effect in action.

 

[shadders]

Again, I wasn't talking about distribution issues with regards to cable manufacturers! Please do read and understand my posts correctly!

Anyway, as I say, I'm going to get a listen to them. Which again, is more than some in this thread will do. I'm intrigued as Abbey Road deem them good enough to use in their studios. I'm curious, nothing more.

Hi,

OK - but my response is to the specifics of this thread of cable seller - as provided by another poster in regards to evidence of studios using specilist cables. As such, i was talking about the cable designer using a manufacturing company and not starting from scratch, and only having one outlet to distribute to - so we are talking about the same issue. One shop sells them in the UK. So no distribution costs etc.,

EDIT - Checked - 6 outlets. The Renaissance was jsut an intermediate website.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Frank Harvey]

That's OK. I hear differences in cables and CD players and DACs. Our senses can fool us, no one is immune. And sometimes there are actual audible differences and are explainable in engineering terms. Some gear is made to sound different, because, yes, different sells.

There was no fooling in this instance, I heard a difference. Although, I didn't like that difference, so didn't buy the cable. Was I expecting to hear something worse than the bog standard cable that came with the Tag? No, I expected it to be better. Expectation bias was left at the door with my boots (maybe I should've kept them on?)

If you are referring to a mains cable that is the placebo effect in action.

Thanks for that clarification.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi,

OK - but my response is to the specifics of this thread of cable seller - as provided by another poster in regards to evidence of studios using specilist cables. As such, i was talking about the cable designer using a manufacturing company and not starting from scratch, and only having one outlet to distribute to - so we are talking about the same issue. One shop sells them in the UK. So no distribution costs etc.,

EDIT - Checked - 6 outlets. The Renaissance was jsut an intermediate website.

Regards,

Shadders.

Distributor.

 

[Gazzip]

The cable i am referring to as suggested by another poster is only available in the UK from one supplier :

http://www.renaissanceaudio.co.uk/

So no distribution issues - single outlet.

Hmmm... Another of your ill founded statements. I purchased my Studio Connections cables from Sonata Hifi in London, one of the six approved suppliers in the UK. Renaissance are the distributor.

 

[shadders]

The cable i am referring to as suggested by another poster is only available in the UK from one supplier :

http://www.renaissanceaudio.co.uk/

So no distribution issues - single outlet.

Hmmm... Another of your ill founded statements. I purchased my Studio Connections cables from Sonata Hifi in London, one of the six approved suppliers in the UK. Renaissance are the distributor.

Hi,

I updated the text - Davidf has responded - so, a simple mistake, not ill founded.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

OK - but my response is to the specifics of this thread of cable seller - as provided by another poster in regards to evidence of studios using specilist cables. As such, i was talking about the cable designer using a manufacturing company and not starting from scratch, and only having one outlet to distribute to - so we are talking about the same issue. One shop sells them in the UK. So no distribution costs etc.,

EDIT - Checked - 6 outlets. The Renaissance was jsut an intermediate website.

Regards,

Shadders.

Distributor.

Hi David,

Thanks.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Gazzip]

The cable i am referring to as suggested by another poster is only available in the UK from one supplier :

http://www.renaissanceaudio.co.uk/

So no distribution issues - single outlet.

Hmmm... Another of your ill founded statements. I purchased my Studio Connections cables from Sonata Hifi in London, one of the six approved suppliers in the UK. Renaissance are the distributor.

Hi,

I updated the text - Davidf has responded - so, a simple mistake, not ill founded.

Regards,

Shadders.

You've been making quite a number of those lately where it supports your standpoint.

 

[shadders]

The cable i am referring to as suggested by another poster is only available in the UK from one supplier :

http://www.renaissanceaudio.co.uk/

So no distribution issues - single outlet.

Hmmm... Another of your ill founded statements. I purchased my Studio Connections cables from Sonata Hifi in London, one of the six approved suppliers in the UK. Renaissance are the distributor.

Hi,

I updated the text - Davidf has responded - so, a simple mistake, not ill founded.

Regards,

Shadders.

You've been making quite a number of those lately where it supports your standpoint.

Hi,

Please list the mistakes. The one above in this thread, where are the others - thanks.

I am happy to correct or admit i am wrong.

The video (as per djellis) of the new scientific phenomena has yet to be provided. Without that video - i cannot respond to the issue of what the detail of this scientific phenomena is. As such - is this a mistake ??. Who knows. *biggrin*

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[kukulec]

It's sad that always the same 2-3 guys try to help. I raised this question to Cambridge Audio as I also plan to buy a power cable in a similar price range if it makes difference. When they answer me, I will post it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hmmm... Another of your ill founded statements. I purchased my Studio Connections cables from Sonata Hifi in London, one of the six approved suppliers in the UK. Renaissance are the distributor.

Good then? No! Don't tell me! I wouldn't want my expectation bias to be biased too much...

 

[Frank Harvey]

It's sad that always the same 2-3 guys try to help. I raised this question to Cambridge Audio as I also plan to buy a power cable in a similar price range if it makes difference. When they answer me, I will post it.

Personally, I'd concentrate on getting the basics of your system sorted first before looking at cables/accessories.

 

[kukulec]

Sorry, I don't understand perfectly. What would you change?