PERFORMANCE BETWEEN HIGH END & BUDGET HIFI

[ISAC69]

In the sound industry the sky is the limit ... You can spend even about 1 milion $ or more for high end kit if you want to . But is

it necessary ? - I don't think so in my opinion the more you spend you will notice improvement in the sound up to a point

that the difference will be so little that you wonder if it's worth it ??? :?

 

[lindsayt]

OK, I can put together a system with an £800 analogue source, £500 worth of amplification and £500 speakers, £50 in cables, £0 in supports and stands.

How easy do you think it would be to tell the difference between my £1850 system and say a £30,000 Linn high end LP12SE, Klimax Kontrol, fully Aktive 4200 power amps, Majik Isobarik system?

I reckon your system would probably be at least as good.

Thank you. Nice answer.

The reality is that it's very easy to notice the difference between these 2 systems. It's the sort of difference that hits you in the face as soon as you listen to them. Better source, better amplification, better speakers. They all add up to a large, easily noticeable difference.

But that's only because I've cheated.

Studer A807 playing 15 ips master tapes or master tape copies or 7.5 ips radio broadcast tapes, Pioneer SF-700 active crossover, a pair of Urei 6290 amps into Bozak Symphony speakers. All 2nd hand.

Poor Linn system. Doesn't stand a chance against that. :rofl:

 

[BenLaw]

I can see why the way S.Coates has expressed himself may have wound people up, but equally others appear to be trying to antagonise him in return. I think the source of disagreement is more semantic and through the use of imprecise terms with individual interpretations than any major disagreement.

My experience is:

(i) that generally when one spends more, one gets improved SQ. That only works within certain tolerances, so a £550 component may not generally be better than a £500 component. There are good and less good examples of components at various price points. Indeed, this is the basis on which WHF predicates its star system.

(ii) there's no precise maths, but when one talks about a worthwhile improvement it must be in terms of percentage rather than absolute costs. I would expect a good £1000 component to be noticeably better than a good £500 component, whereas I would not with £20,500 v £20,000.

(iii) to try and fix any percentage, as some have tried, is meaningless as each person's interpretation of a 'worthwhile improvement' is different, and indeed will fluctuate depending on circumstance.

(iv) even when one gets to 'high end' systems costing £20k+ the sound is noticeably different between different systems, even of a similar cost. A lot of what is 'better' is subjective. In a sense this detracts from the pure philosophy of 'hi fi' as ultimately faithful reproduction, as all systems above a certain cost would end up sounding very, very similar.

 

[matthewpiano]

Best post of the thread Ben.

 

[Covenanter]

Methinks I've spotted some willy waggling. :rofl:

Chris

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I can put together a system with an £800 analogue source, £500 worth of amplification and £500 speakers, £50 in cables, £0 in supports and stands.

How easy do you think it would be to tell the difference between my £1850 system and say a £30,000 Linn high end LP12SE, Klimax Kontrol, fully Aktive 4200 power amps, Majik Isobarik system?

I reckon your system would probably be at least as good.

Thank you. Nice answer.

The reality is that it's very easy to notice the difference between these 2 systems. It's the sort of difference that hits you in the face as soon as you listen to them. Better source, better amplification, better speakers. They all add up to a large, easily noticeable difference.

But that's only because I've cheated.

Studer A807 playing 15 ips master tapes or master tape copies or 7.5 ips radio broadcast tapes, Pioneer SF-700 active crossover, a pair of Urei 6290 amps into Bozak Symphony speakers. All 2nd hand.

Poor Linn system. Doesn't stand a chance against that. :rofl:

I can't say I've ever heard of any of them to be honest

For me, it's all about the speakers, as they affect sound quality far more than any other componants, IMO, and I believe you can get excellent sound from many that cost less than £1250, all that I have in mind being active. Sure, you're going to get more bass and greater scale/presence from bigger, more expensive speakers that are driven by suitably powerful amplification (which needn't be expensive), but I don't think there's going to be that much difference in overall sound quality. The law of diminishing returns kicks in extremely low down the money scale with HiFi, IMO.

 

[ISAC69]

For me, it's all about the speakers, as they affect sound quality far more than any other componants, IMO, and I believe you can get excellent sound from many that cost less than £1250, all that I have in mind being active. Sure, you're going to get more bass and greater scale/presence from bigger, more expensive speakers that are driven by suitably powerful amplification (which needn't be expensive), but I don't think there's going to be that much difference in overall sound quality. The law of diminishing returns kicks in extremely low down the money scale with HiFi, IMO.

[/quote]

Dinamight I must agree -up to a certain point the more you spend the little you get back in terms of sound quality .

The best solution is to get the best kit you can find for your budget that's all.

 

[SteveR750]

OK, I can put together a system with an £800 analogue source, £500 worth of amplification and £500 speakers, £50 in cables, £0 in supports and stands.

How easy do you think it would be to tell the difference between my £1850 system and say a £30,000 Linn high end LP12SE, Klimax Kontrol, fully Aktive 4200 power amps, Majik Isobarik system?

I reckon your system would probably be at least as good.

Thank you. Nice answer.

The reality is that it's very easy to notice the difference between these 2 systems. It's the sort of difference that hits you in the face as soon as you listen to them. Better source, better amplification, better speakers. They all add up to a large, easily noticeable difference.

But that's only because I've cheated.

Studer A807 playing 15 ips master tapes or master tape copies or 7.5 ips radio broadcast tapes, Pioneer SF-700 active crossover, a pair of Urei 6290 amps into Bozak Symphony speakers. All 2nd hand.

Poor Linn system. Doesn't stand a chance against that. :rofl:

I can't say I've ever heard of any of them to be honest

For me, it's all about the speakers, as they affect sound quality far more than any other componants, IMO, and I believe you can get excellent sound from many that cost less than £1250, all that I have in mind being active. Sure, you're going to get more bass and greater scale/presence from bigger, more expensive speakers that are driven by suitably powerful amplification (which needn't be expensive), but I don't think there's going to be that much difference in overall sound quality. The law of diminishing returns kicks in extremely low down the money scale with HiFi, IMO.

Based on what listening experience though?

 

[the record spot]

A piano would be no use to me as I can't play one! And I have little interest in piano playing...But, as I said, my girlfriend is a classically trained musician - she has a Steinway Model B. But you're comparing two completely different things...

Not quite. And it's interesting that you mention pianos, or MP did, as that's one of the - apparently - harder things for a stereo to reproduce. Does your system sound as good or similar to your partner's Steinway then?

 

[the record spot]

Overdose, that's blatantly an idiotic response - because what does high fidelity mean? I think it would be easy to ascribe a definition in terms of transparency, control, soundstaging, tonality etc which would discount most mid-range and mid-priced equipment...

It would? It does?! How exactly? Your point of reference here is what? Sbjectivity or accuracy? One appears to be the polar opposite of the other for many of these things, plus I'd be inclined to discount your discounting on the simple basis that I believe it's wrong.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

I went to the national audio show last week and heard some really high end stuff. Most of it looks fantastic but for the the prices i was quite underwhelmed.

Probably my favourite set up i heard was a reel to reel tape machine (cant remember which make) Music First pre amp, Quad 909 power amp and a pair of Rogers LS3/5A admittedly the pre amp was quite expensive but the sound was (to my ears) one of the most enjoyable.

I think i was expecting amazing things from the high end stuff and it just didnt happen. I prefered the more simple and dare i say it less expensive systems.

If you feel the need and have the means to pay top money for a high end system then fair enough but i'm with Native Bon on this one. High end kit is out of most people's reach so thank god budget and mid priced stuff gets pretty close.

Cheers, Ed

 

[amcluesent]

SQ on my main system isn't the same multiple as the price difference from the 2nd set-up. Law of diminishing returns. Anyhow, the relentless 'hi-fi' sound of some £££ systems is grim, iMHO of course. :?

 

[CnoEvil]

I went to the national audio show last week and heard some really high end stuff. Most of it looks fantastic but for the the prices i was quite underwhelmed.

Probably my favourite set up i heard was a reel to reel tape machine (cant remember which make) Music First pre amp, Quad 909 power amp and a pair of Rogers LS3/5A admittedly the pre amp was quite expensive but the sound was (to my ears) one of the most enjoyable.

I think i was expecting amazing things from the high end stuff and it just didnt happen. I prefered the more simple and dare i say it less expensive systems.

If you feel the need and have the means to pay top money for a high end system then fair enough but i'm with Native Bon on this one. High end kit is out of most people's reach so thank god budget and mid priced stuff gets pretty close.

Cheers, Ed

Hi Ed, looking at your system, you have a similar taste to me.....were there any systems from Audio Note, Conrad Johnson, Unison Research, Pathos, Luxman, MF AMS, McIntosh, Icon Audio, Sonus Faber, Living Voice, JM Renaud, Harbeth, Lavardin, Electrocompaniet, Pure Sound, Graaf and Audio Research?.....because if there were, I'd be surprised if you didn't come away with a different view!

 

[Native_bon]

Well well. At last someone sees sense in it all. Of course spending more will improve performance but at what cost. Like I said with so much competition out there mid priced systems are giving high end a run for their money.

I for one listen to a lot of live instruments played in gigg venues & recording studio enviroment. Yes High end do sound better but the price starts to out do the performance very quickly.

If you just enjoy listening to music & love music there are many a systems that will potray the musical experience with out spending silly money. More over some systems try to make the music sound better than the real thing. Also exaggeration of the sound stage. I have seen a lot of live giggs in small venues the sound stage does not sound so big in most cases.

Again its all down to taste. With so much good stuff out there now I think a 5 grand system can potary very satifying musical experience. Its all about the mid-range in the sound. Get this right & your almost there.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

I went to the national audio show last week and heard some really high end stuff. Most of it looks fantastic but for the the prices i was quite underwhelmed.

Probably my favourite set up i heard was a reel to reel tape machine (cant remember which make) Music First pre amp, Quad 909 power amp and a pair of Rogers LS3/5A admittedly the pre amp was quite expensive but the sound was (to my ears) one of the most enjoyable.

I think i was expecting amazing things from the high end stuff and it just didnt happen. I prefered the more simple and dare i say it less expensive systems.

If you feel the need and have the means to pay top money for a high end system then fair enough but i'm with Native Bon on this one. High end kit is out of most people's reach so thank god budget and mid priced stuff gets pretty close.

Cheers, Ed

Hi Ed, looking at your system, you have a similar taste to me.....were there any systems from Audio Note, Conrad Johnson, Unison Research, Pathos, Luxman, MF AMS, McIntosh, Icon Audio, Sonus Faber, Living Voice, JM Renaud, Harbeth, Lavardin, Electrocompaniet, Pure Sound, Graaf and Audio Research?.....because if there were, I'd be surprised if you didn't come away with a different view!

Hi Cno

Some of the brands you mention were not there (Pathos, Luxman Sonus Faber, Living Voice, JM Renaud Lavardin). Dont' get me wrong a lot of the kit sounded great but the cost of it wipes out the value for me.

I'm afraid the Audio Note room wasnt as good this year, they covered their AN speakers with slate which seemed to rob the life out of the speakers. The Mcintosh stuff to me looks better than it sounds. There was a Palmer TT, Suden Mystro and Harbeth set up which i really enjoyed but then thats probably because i am familiar with the Harbeth's.

I just prefered the more simple mid priced stuff, My amp and speakers were both second hand, i couldnt of afforded them new.

Cheers Ed

 

[Anonymous]

Overdose, that's blatantly an idiotic response - because what does high fidelity mean? I think it would be easy to ascribe a definition in terms of transparency, control, soundstaging, tonality etc which would discount most mid-range and mid-priced equipment...

It would? It does?! How exactly? Your point of reference here is what? Sbjectivity or accuracy? One appears to be the polar opposite of the other for many of these things, plus I'd be inclined to discount your discounting on the simple basis that I believe it's wrong.

Easy to answer this. July 21st 1955 - Elvis laid down the monumental Trying To Get To You. One of the worst quality surviving Sun tapes, the master no longer exists (some releases have used a mint Sun 78 as the source) but Sony has restored this as much as possible, and has created a new digital master from a transter to an RCA IPS 30 tape, however, it's still full of compression from tape wear, age and crappy DR compression applied by RCA in 1956 for release on the eponymous LP "Elvis Presley'. Trying To Get To You is the first Elvis recording to feature a piano - played by Elvis himself - but it is inaudible as it wasn't miked correctly (and not erased by Sam Phillips as was long thought). You can however hear the vestiges of Elvis playing through leakage on the slapback dry echo tape - but you need a damned transparent and revealing hifi to hear it. You could argue if your hifi can't produce the piano, then it's not hifi as it's on the tape. I guarantee few hifis can reveal it...

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm afraid the Audio Note room wasnt as good this year, they covered their AN speakers with slate which seemed to rob the life out of the speakers.

That's a shame. It sounds very odd, as the speaker cabinets are designed to contribute to the sound by resonating, in the same way as the body of a guitar.....so I can quite see how covering them with slate might kill their enthusiasm.

Which McIntosh did you hear? I have always rated the MC 275 (x2) with one of their tubed pre-amps, though I like it with a fairly neutral speaker (like the Kef Refs).

Did you get to hear the MF Primo + AMS 50/100, and if so, what system was it in?

When ever I listen to really high end stuff, I have to suspend all notion of price or VFM, before I can truly appreciate it....there is also the fact that it seldom sounds right stuck in some hotel room, where there is often poor acoustics/power supply, and it may not be fully warmed up.

 

[Overdose]

Easy to answer this. July 21st 1955 - Elvis laid down the monumental Trying To Get To You. One of the worst quality surviving Sun tapes, the master no longer exists (some releases have used a mint Sun 78 as the source) but Sony has restored this as much as possible, and has created a new digital master from a transter to an RCA IPS 30 tape, however, it's still full of compression from tape wear, age and crappy DR compression applied by RCA in 1956 for release on the eponymous LP "Elvis Presley'. Trying To Get To You is the first Elvis recording to feature a piano - played by Elvis himself - but it is inaudible as it wasn't miked correctly (and not erased by Sam Phillips as was long thought). You can however hear the vestiges of Elvis playing through leakage on the slapback dry echo tape - but you need a damned transparent and revealing hifi to hear it. You could argue if your hifi can't produce the piano, then it's not hifi as it's on the tape. I guarantee few hifis can reveal it...

Interesting, I'll have to check this out. Would you recommend CD or mp3 download?

 

[Anonymous]

Don't think it will make any difference to be honest - although remastered in DSD, I don't think it's available on anything other than CD, and won't be released on any of the Elvis SACD releases over the coming months....

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I had a chance once to hear one very expensive system. it was some Kharma more expensive speakers, some huge power amps and preamp of brand I can't remember now, Clearaudio Inovation TT and some flashy CDP. I don't know the exact price of that stuff but I'm pretty sure it could cover a nice chunk of your typical mortgage. but guess what? did it sound the best at that show? nope. the best system to my ears then (and best so far) was comprised of Leben cs300 amp (some E2200), Golden Ear Technology Tritton II speakers (now E3000) and Oracle CDP (this is more expensive than both of the former components put together, but I'm sure you could find a very decent machine at comparable price to the other components, like my Digit CDP for instance ).

so there we have it. a system which costs just south of E9000. it's certainly not budget and I' d say it's not mid range either. but I dare anyone to put a system for E1500 - E3000 (in retail prices) that could equal it's sound! in order to get world class sound you don't need to remortgage or sell your kidney. but such sound doesn't reside at budget end of price scale...

 

[Overdose]

Don't think it will make any difference to be honest - although remastered in DSD, I don't think it's available on anything other than CD, and won't be released on any of the Elvis SACD releases over the coming months....

2005 edition of the album on RCA/BMG is now on its way. I shall report back (perhaps on a new thread so as to not resurect this one).

 

[CnoEvil]

so there we have it. a system which costs just south of E9000. it's certainly not budget and I' d say it's not mid range either. but I dare anyone to put a system for E1500 - E3000 (in retail prices) that could equal it's sound! in order to get world class sound you don't need to remortgage or sell your kidney. but such sound doesn't reside at budget end of price scale...

You are right about this.

If you fully understand how you like your system to sound, and choose your equipment very carefully (which takes a fair old understanding of what's out there), you can own a system that will fend off some much more expensive systems, especially if they have a sonic signature that doesn't appeal to the same degree.

The trouble is, you can still use this knowledge to put together a system that is substantially better.....but it is likely to cost you nearly double!

 

[tosh]

I've recently sold all my separates and bought a micro system with modest speakers and prefer the sound of the cheaper set up. I'm enjoying my music more than I have for a long time.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't think it will make any difference to be honest - although remastered in DSD, I don't think it's available on anything other than CD, and won't be released on any of the Elvis SACD releases over the coming months....

2005 edition of the album on RCA/BMG is now on its way. I shall report back (perhaps on a new thread so as to not resurect this one).

Which album? 'Elvis At Sun?' That's All Right (not from the master either though unfortunately as that's lost), Good Rocking Tonight. Mystery Train, Trying To Get To You, Baby Let's Play House, the incredible slow blues verson of I'm Left Your Right She's Gone and the extraordinary vocal on Blue Moon..the genesis of an absolute vocal and interpretative genius, one whose ineffable genius has sadly been sometimes overshadowed by commerical success, image and ubiquity... Enjoy!

 

[the record spot]

You can however hear the vestiges of Elvis playing through leakage on the slapback dry echo tape - but you need a damned transparent and revealing hifi to hear it. You could argue if your hifi can't produce the piano, then it's not hifi as it's on the tape. I guarantee few hifis can reveal it...

Or your hearing's not so good and you miss it. Anyway, I've ordered the CD (the non-Copy Protection one). Presuambly then, you've been round most hifis in order to be able to make that kind of statement? I'd suggest you may be a tad more over-confident about the abilities of some "lesser" equipment. Especially today, or of the last twenty years.