Oppo BDP-831?

[Gerrardasnails]

pete321:
Gerrardasnails:But you have said it yourself here, the differences, albeit minimal, were noticeable - and that was a £130 bd player going up to a £300 player (in today's money - we all know the Denon was way over priced because it was their first bd player). If that's the case, I would imagine that there is a small improvement as you go up the chain to the very top. No one is saying that the improvement has to be calculated by the cost difference - of course your brilliant Z7 is not going to sound only half as good as the £3000 Arcam. Similarly, a £4k bd player is not going to show 10 times better picture than a £400 player. However, saying that they are all look the same with a bluray spinning is hard to believe. I believe that to many the Oppo would be a better choice - a player that plays mkv?! That's great news for many but the 99% of others don't even know or care what .mkv is. My point though is the WHF review would not state that the Sony is a better bd player, if it wasn't.

Yes they're noticeable, but in terms of 1080p picture the price differences don't warrant the improvement. I've been buying hifi long enough to know that you don't get double the quality for double the price, but the Sony BDP-S350 was £200 when the 5 star DVD-2500BT was selling for £600. In my opinion no way did the Denon warrant the extra £400, especially when it spat out quite a few discs, yet it got 5 stars and I bought it (my fault I know for not testing). As for the Z7, it sounds better on my set up with movies and SACD, and as I've tweaked it's settings over the last few weeks and it's run in, it's not far off the AVR600's stereo performance. That's the Z7 is better with movies and SACD, dosen't lock-up, more features, better upscaling and not far off with stereo music. That's why I'm hesitating a bit with recent WHF reviews, £1500 extra just isn't worth it when it's worse in some areas and only slightly better in others.

I agree with you that minor improvements wouldn't make a hike in price seem worthwhile to me. However, there are plenty of others who just want the best picture they can afford. As for your receiver, that is a huge sum not to demo with your own speakers. It could well be that your speakers match the Yam more than the Arcam or that the Arcam is over priced.

 

[Clare Newsome]

pete321:
Clare Newsome:especially as I use a DSP-Z7 amp.

So you've got the true one box nirvana then, bang per buck taken into account!

I'd still take the Arcam for music - but then I don't use my AV amp for music at all, as I have a separate hi-fi stack (and my current hi-fi amp costs more than the Yamaha!)

 

[pete321]

Clare Newsome:pete321:

Clare Newsome:especially as I use a DSP-Z7 amp.

So you've got the true one box nirvana then, bang per buck taken into account!

I'd still take the Arcam for music - but then I don't use my AV amp for music at all, as I have a separate hi-fi stack (and my current hi-fi amp costs more than the Yamaha!)

When you add a modded DacMagic between both, the results aren't that far apart.

 

[Anonymous]

Clare Newsome:pete321:
Clare Newsome:especially as I use a DSP-Z7 amp.

So you've got the true one box nirvana then, bang per buck taken into account!

I'd still take the Arcam for music - but then I don't use my AV amp for music at all, as I have a separate hi-fi stack (and my current hi-fi amp costs more than the Yamaha!)

Has your onkyo been resigned to the bedroom!?

 

[pete321]

Gerrardasnails:I agree with you that minor improvements wouldn't make a hike in price seem worthwhile to me. However, there are plenty of others who just want the best picture they can afford. As for your receiver, that is a huge sum not to demo with your own speakers. It could well be that your speakers match the Yam more than the Arcam or that the Arcam is over priced.

Don't tell me the WHF review on my speakers was duff now as well! Only joking, I love 'em, although since adding my BK sub which seems to surprisingly outperform the bass 60hz and below of my Studio 140's, I might be considering the smaller D15's with the sub doing the low bass work.

 

[Clare Newsome]

NayTyson:Clare Newsome:pete321:

Clare Newsome:especially as I use a DSP-Z7 amp.

So you've got the true one box nirvana then, bang per buck taken into account!

I'd
still take the Arcam for music - but then I don't use my AV amp for
music at all, as I have a separate hi-fi stack (and my current hi-fi
amp costs more than the Yamaha!)

Has your onkyo been resigned to the bedroom!?

Nope, I said goodbye to the magnificent Onkyo when it refused to play nicely with my new Sky+ HD box

At that point i'd just seen/heard the Yamaha 'Z7 and the rest is history.

 

[Anonymous]

Andy Grange:Will Harris:Now, if the Sony is really as good as What Hi-Fi say it is, then what is it doing differently from the Oppo, or any other BluRay player, to display a better BluRay image? I'd love to know. Ontop of which, how does that effect the player ratings of all the more expensive players?

Can I just ask a quick question Will?

Why didn't you get an old PS3 which plays BD's, SACD's, CD's and can act as a games console if there's no difference between any blu-ray player on the market for BD discs? Could've saved yourself a few quid there mate

Well, when I first looked at BluRay I was using a Denon AVC A10SE amp which didn't have HDMI, so my priority was to find a player with multichannel outs. I've never been into gaming, so I bought a Pioneer BDP51-FD and I was very happy with it, aside from it's unbelievable slowness. I upgraded the amp to an Onkyo TXNR905 and realised just how wonderful and how simple life with HDMI can be. The next two upgrades were the speakers and amp again to the Arcam AVR600, a wonderful if buggy beast.

I'd never tried the PS3 until recently, and WHF had writen widely about how it was superceded in performance terms by stand alone players so I didn't give it much thought, but having now tested one and seen how good the picture was I am wondering whether it wouldn't be a marvellous machine for most. If you don't need analogue multichannels and maybe want to use it as a streamer for music etc then it's brilliant. If I didn't have the Oppo I'd seriously consider it especially as I believe you can network it and swap out the hard drive for a larger one. There may be the odd compatability issue and it won't bitstream from BluRays, but the LPCM sounded pretty fantastic to me. Of course I know the new one bitstreams, but it was the old one I'd always looked at.

Good point though!

 

[D.J.KRIME]

So how well do either the Sony760 or the Oppo stack up with DVD/CD compaired to my Denon DVD3930? also how do they compaire to my PS3 with BD?

As a owner of a older non-HDMI amp, the sound proformance over analoge outs is a key factor when I choose a player to replace both my PS3 and Denon 3930, along with PQ and if the PQ on any player was not on par with DVD to my Denon.

 

[aliEnRIK]

It seems to me that the same people who cannot tell a difference between HDMI leads cannot tell a difference between bluray sources

 

[hammill]

aliEnRIK:

It seems to me that the same people who cannot tell a difference between HDMI leads cannot tell a difference between bluray sources

And the same people who think that Al Qaida was responsible for 9/11.

 

[The_Lhc]

Oh FFMFS sake, can we at least keep the conspiracy theories confined to "magazines give good reviews to the best advertisers"?

 

[j4mm3r]

Clare Newsome:

Directly from the Sony review:

Sony's HD Reality enhancer allows you to fine-tune the picture on the fly, and tinker with aspects of performance such as grain and noise reduction.

Precision Cinema HD claims to help produce a smoother, sharper image. Finally, the 'S760 also includes Sony's SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology that helps match the image to your display's bit depth (whether it's 8, 10, or 12-bit).

And yes, we're currently re-evaulating ratings of a range of products due to Awards debutants.

(BTW, I note you haven't withdrawn your clumsy accusation re retail when faced with my factual points about the many Award winners that are sold direct.

)

Clare, just slightly off topic, i started a topic here: http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/320215.aspx

regarding the bit depth display of my lcd tv, the question in general is how do you achieve the highest bit depth and is it dependant on the current players (source) about rather than your tv?

 

[aliEnRIK]

j4mm3r:Clare Newsome:

Directly from the Sony review:

Sony's HD Reality enhancer allows you to fine-tune the picture on the fly, and tinker with aspects of performance such as grain and noise reduction.

Precision Cinema HD claims to help produce a smoother, sharper image. Finally, the 'S760 also includes Sony's SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology that helps match the image to your display's bit depth (whether it's 8, 10, or 12-bit).

And yes, we're currently re-evaulating ratings of a range of products due to Awards debutants.

(BTW, I note you haven't withdrawn your clumsy accusation re retail when faced with my factual points about the many Award winners that are sold direct.

)

Clare, just slightly off topic, i started a topic here: http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/320215.aspx

regarding the bit depth display of my lcd tv, the question in general is how do you achieve the highest bit depth and is it dependant on the current players (source) about rather than your tv?

Your restricted by the source

 

[aliEnRIK]

hammill:aliEnRIK:

It seems to me that the same people who cannot tell a difference between HDMI leads cannot tell a difference between bluray sources

And the same people who think that Al Qaida was responsible for 9/11.

How thats at all relevant to how people see/hear is beyond me, but for the record - I never said they wernt responsible

NEXT...........

 

[Clare Newsome]

D.J.KRIME:
So how well do either the Sony760 or the Oppo stack up with DVD/CD compaired to my Denon DVD3930? also how do they compaire to my PS3 with BD?

As a owner of a older non-HDMI amp, the sound proformance over analoge outs is a key factor when I choose a player to replace both my PS3 and Denon 3930, along with PQ and if the PQ on any player was not on par with DVD to my Denon.

AFAIK, we haven't done a direct head-to-head with the Denon DVD3930, but we have with other previous five-star DVD players (such as the £600 Marantz DV7001 - we demo'd differences between the Sony and that player at the Manchester Show. The Sony takes it). I'd suggest taking your Denon down to a retailer for a comparison!

And the Sony 'S360 outperforms the PS3 (for sound and vision - smoother motion-handling as well as superior detail), let alone the big-step up 'S760.

 

[Davo2008]

Hi Clare. I've been following this thread/debate for MONTHS!! There's no doubt that the sony has thrown a massive cat into a barrel of wingless pigeons! I currently have the Denon 2500BT. If price isnt a factor at all, is the Denon as good as the Sony/Oppo if used soley for Blu Ray and DVD?

 

[Trahern]

As I have brought my wooden spoon to the party and like to add fuel to the fire (how many mixed metaphors can we use?) I want to get in on the conspiracy act (which for the sake of clarity I don't for one moment believe - except when it comes to my free hdmi cable that still hasn't arrived despite taking a subscription to the magazine!!!!!) I am therefore nosey enough to ask what equipment (hi-fi and cinema that is) Clare and the other staff at WHF use at home and did they pay for it

? (Really you don't have to answer the latter

). Or has this been mentioned elsewhere?

 

[Alec]

Andrew Everard:

al7478:Might be part of the reason for the confusion tho, not that I agree with what you refer to as Will's allegation - that subject has been done to death and then some.

Except the blog-piece I referenced is a personal opinion, not the considered verdict of the test-team, and does in fact say it's not meant to pre-judge the eventual verdict.

Oh, and I didn't refer to anything as an allegation - I called it an accusation.

Quite right you are too, my apologies for misquoting you. Either way, it wasn't supposed to be snidey or anything, i was just being careful; obviously not careful enough in my reading tho.

With your first point in mind, am not sure its really fair of clare, then, to make the point that certain things are covered in your blog. If we are encouraged to see the blog as soemthing apart from the review, yet clare is refering people to it, it demonstrates that review write-ups should be more comprehensive. Im refering to the exchange quoted below.

Will Harris:That doesn't change the fact that you've applied a strange set of criteria to the Oppo. It plays SACD and DVD-A but you don't think many people will be interested in that so haven't given the player any credit for having the capability. It'll even output DSD from an SACD but again, no credit given. It starts up incredibly quickly, reacts brilliantly to remote commands (no delays) and have 2 USB ports, one front and one rear as well as network capability. All of these things are ignored, which in your view means you can concentrate on testing it's picture and sound.
Clare Newsome:That's simply not true - they were not ignored; Andrew's 2000-word blog covers them all off, and is an ideal longer read for someone interested in those specific features.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Trahern:As I have brought my wooden spoon to the party
and like to add fuel to the fire (how many mixed metaphors can we use?)
I want to get in on the conspiracy act (which for the sake of clarity I
don't for one moment believe - except when it comes to my free hdmi
cable that still hasn't arrived despite taking a subscription to the
magazine!!!!!) I am therefore nosey enough to ask what equipment (hi-fi
and cinema that is) Clare and the other staff at WHF use at home and
did they pay for it

? (Really you don't have to answer the
latter

). Or has this been mentioned elsewhere?

There's a thread around with our systems on (i'll dig it up and post a link). Apart from my stepson's PS3, I have no Sony in the house

Borrowing reference kit from our stockroom is common (gives us great long-term-listen perspective), but we more typically get deals (if we're lucky) on products we like, which in many cases are four-star products that particularly appeal to us. We all spend way too much on kit, discs etc - occupational hazard!

 

[Clare Newsome]

al7478:
With your first point in mind, am not sure its really fair of clare, then, to make the point that certain things are covered in your blog. If we are encouraged to see the blog as soemthing apart from the review, yet clare is refering people to it, it demonstrates that review write-ups should be more comprehensive.

it's not 'apart' from the review, it's supplemental: it was written before the review, and before the comparative testing. It's a standalone, in-depth first look at a product that many people were keen to know more about in extreme detail.

But not everyone wants to read so much about a player - they just want to know how it performs with the fundamentals, which is what our review provides.

Having said all that... We are looking at making longer versions of key reviews available as resources allow.

 

[Tom Moreno]

Trahern:As I have brought my wooden spoon to the party and like to add fuel to the fire (how many mixed metaphors can we use?) I want to get in on the conspiracy act (which for the sake of clarity I don't for one moment believe - except when it comes to my free hdmi cable that still hasn't arrived despite taking a subscription to the magazine!!!!!) I am therefore nosey enough to ask what equipment (hi-fi and cinema that is) Clare and the other staff at WHF use at home and did they pay for it

? (Really you don't have to answer the latter

). Or has this been mentioned elsewhere?

There's a thread in the "Your Systems" forum where we're trying to get the staff to post their home systems. Though there haven't been any posted (last time I checked) there have been a few declarations of "maybe once the Awards issue is out of the way."

On the second part of your question, I would be surprised if they got their equipment (at least the big items) for free but wouldn't be surprised if they were afforded some sort of preferential pricing as this is common with almost anybody who works in the industry (at least on the sales side). I used to work in the retail side of consumer electronics years ago and even then the only cases of people getting gear for free were pretty much isolated instances incentive programs brought on by manufacturers for sales staff. I got the first Sony ES DVD deck in one such program for selling 20 units in a month. I also remember reading a couple of reviews from an American publication where the reviewer makes mention that he enjoyed a particular product so much that he called the company with his credit card info to keep the review sample.

Obviously this has no bearing on whether or not this is case for WHF staff but even if they do get discounted rates from manufacturers I wouldn't use that as an argument for bias in their reviews.

BTW- Staffers, hopefully now that the Awards issue is winding down (as soon as the website gets finished I guess) I'm looking forward to seeing some those living rooms!

 

[The_Lhc]

Clare Newsome:Directly from the Sony review:
Sony's HD Reality enhancer allows you to fine-tune the picture on the fly, and
tinker with aspects of performance such as grain and noise reduction.

Precision Cinema HD claims to help produce a smoother, sharper image. Finally,
the 'S760 also includes Sony's SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology that
helps match the image to your display's bit depth (whether it's 8, 10,
or 12-bit).

Is that last bit automatic or something the user has to set themselves, ie do you need to know what bit-depth your display is to use this feature? I've no idea what the bit depth of my TV is (KRP-500a).

I didn't really want to go away from Pioneer for BD but I don't think I can wait long enough to save up for a new amp, so I might get the Sony for the multi-channel outs, it's not quite the cheapest I've seen with them but the only other one was a "Logik" BD player from Curries, which is getting a complete body swerve!

Maybe I'll sell the Sony once I've got an HDMI amp, to fund a BDP-LX52, how do they compare in picture quality terms?

 

[Clare Newsome]

OK, here's that thread re staff systems - but it's almost two years' old now. I've changed my turntable (now on Clearaudio Performance), CD player, amp (both Leema at moment), AV amp (Yamaha DSP-Z7) and BD/DVD player (Panasonic 'BD55) in that time.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Tom Moreno:
There's a thread in the "Your Systems" forum where we're trying to get the staff to post their home systems. Though there haven't been any posted (last time I checked) there have been a few declarations of "maybe once the Awards issue is out of the way."

Not quite so - there's a much earlier thread where several of us long ago gave a run-down of our systems.

 

[laserman16]

Hey folks, we're drifting off subject a bit here.