No such thing as the perfect amp.

[Electro]

.....maybe not, but the MF AMS 35i gets closer than you'd expect. :shifty:

No, no, no the Accuphase does! lol!

Lets just call it an AMS Accuphuxman 35i!

No No, I am sorry you are both wrong Electrocompaniet amps are far closer to perfect :hand:

 

[CnoEvil]

No No, I am sorry you are both wrong Electrocompaniet amps are far closer to perfect :hand:

What about a compromise? - AMS Electrophuxman 35i 8)

 

[davedotco]

Personally I am a big fan of the original late 70's NAD 3020, not the A version of course.

A measured response that is flat from 20hz - 20khz, noise, distortion and other artifacts 100dB below the music and a stable and low output impedence such that it would drive any sensible speaker.

And, most importantly, an indefinable ability to 'boogie', as we said 'back in the day'.

 

[Electro]

No No, I am sorry you are both wrong Electrocompaniet amps are far closer to perfect :hand:

What about a compromise? - AMS Electrophuxman 35i 8)

I have a feeling that this mythical amplifier is going to end up with a very long and complicated name

 

[whiskywheels]

Any competent amplifier should be able to deal with any genre of music in a satisfactory manner.

No such thing as a good amp that 'does' one genre better than others because that would make it a bad amp.

Absolutely.

HiFi is short for High Fidelity. Don't people understand the meaning of those words, especially the second one?

 

[CnoEvil]

Any competent amplifier should be able to deal with any genre of music in a satisfactory manner.

No such thing as a good amp that 'does' one genre better than others because that would make it a bad amp.

Absolutely.

HiFi is short for High Fidelity. Don't people understand the meaning of those words, especially the second one?

IMO. High Fidelity (perfection) is an aspirational concept. In reality, some brands get closer than others, and there isn't agreement on which get closest, due to the subjective nature of music.

Most brands have their own house sound, and that often depends on what Class amp they use and the speaker design they prefer.

I believe that certain amps can excel at different genres of music (eg. valve brands like Jadis and Unison Research, for jazz, opera and simple orchestral).....that doesn't make them bad, just less versatile. They would still be "satisfactory" with other types of music.

 

[chebby]

Most brands have their own house sound, and that often depends on what Class amp they use and the speaker design they prefer.

I believe that certain amps can excel at different genres of music (eg. valve brands like Jadis and Unison Research, for jazz, opera and simple orchestral).....that doesn't make them bad, just less versatile. They would still be "satisfactory" with other types of music.

Any good amp should be an all rounder. Otherwise it should be labelled "best for jazz" or "best for acoustic" or whatever (in other words potential users should be warned if a manufacturer knows a product is sub-optimal with certain kinds of music).

Ultimately it would be preferable for these kind of 'boutique', genre specific amp designers to get re-acquainted with the last 80 years or so of 'best practice' in amplifier design and get it right in the first place! (Rather than attempting to make a virtue out of a failing.)

I'm b######d if I want to be sold an expensive amp only to find out it is merely "satisfactory" because i'm listening to the 'wrong' music for it.

 

[CnoEvil]

Any good amp should be an all rounder. Otherwise it should be labelled "best for jazz" or "best for acoustic" or whatever (in other words potential users should be warned if a manufacturer knows a product is sub-optimal with certain kinds of music).

Ultimately it would be preferable for these kind of 'boutique', genre specific amp designers to get re-acquainted with the last 80 years or so of 'best practice' in amplifier design and get it right in the first place! (Rather than attempting to make a virtue out of a failing.)

In theory, I agree.

In reality, what can make an amp excel in one area, can be a weakness in another (imo)....as well as different types of music requiring different attributes from the amp. I suppose it comes down to being a "Jack of all trades, but master of none."

Anyway, what constitutes "good" is often subjective making the whole thing academic...ie. "Perfect" is in the ear of the beholder, and manufacturors will assume people will listen to the thing before buying it....and I would assume that it isn't up to them to tell the customer what presentation is right for them.

 

[Overdose]

Any good amp should be an all rounder. Otherwise it should be labelled "best for jazz" or "best for acoustic" or whatever (in other words potential users should be warned if a manufacturer knows a product is sub-optimal with certain kinds of music).

Ultimately it would be preferable for these kind of 'boutique', genre specific amp designers to get re-acquainted with the last 80 years or so of 'best practice' in amplifier design and get it right in the first place! (Rather than attempting to make a virtue out of a failing.)

In theory, I agree.

In reality, what can make an amp excel in one area, can be a weakness in another (imo)....as well as different types of music requiring different attributes from the amp. I suppose it comes down to being a "Jack of all trades, but master of none."

Anyway, what constitutes "good" is often subjective making the whole thing academic...ie. "Perfect" is in the ear of the beholder, and manufacturors will assume people will listen to the thing before buying it....and I would assume that it isn't up to them to tell the customer what presentation is right for them.

If we take 'perfect' to be an individual subjective listening experience, then almost any amp could be perfect. If we are to consider an amp capable of driving almost any home hifi speaker properly and staying within its operating spec, then there would be much fewer to choose from.

I have yet to see any evidence that holds water as to how an amplifier could possibly be better with one particular type of music than any other, all an amp has to do is amplify a signal and not impose any audible distortion, a relatively simple feat for any manufacturer and yet some apparently still fail to achieve it. I would suggest though, that most hifi equipment today regardless of price, is probably rather good when operated within its design spec.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have yet to see any evidence that holds water as to how an amplifier could possibly be better with one particular type of music than any other, all an amp has to do is amplify a signal and not impose any audible distortion, a relatively simple feat for any manufacturer and yet some apparently still fail to achieve it. I would suggest though, that most hifi equipment today regardless of price, is probably rather good when operated within its design spec.

Have you ever heard a Valve amp and how it compares to a Class D, for example , when playing Jazz / Opera vs playing Drum and Bass / or any Bass driven music?

 

[Overdose]

I have heard a valve amp, yes.

I cannot remember what it was, but I was given a demo of it when I went to collect a Marantz PM75 that I had bought from the owner.

Whatever it was, it was expensive and the owner enthused about it, adamant that he was acheiving some sort of audio nirvana. In a direct comparison with the Marantz, I have to say that I was rather underwhelmed. It's not that the amp sounded bad, in fact it didn't sound any different from the Marantz, so I handed over the readies and quickly left before the owner changed his mind.

The Marantz had an internal 20bit DAC and back when it was released, would have been way ahead of its time. A lovely amp that I should have perhaps kept, but it needed repair.

Back to the original question though, I have still yet to see or hear any meaningfull evidence of amps being particularly good or bad with one particular style of music.

 

[CnoEvil]

Back to the original question though, I have still yet to see or hear any meaningfull evidence of amps being particularly good or bad with one particular style of music.

That in turn depends on the amps you have heard and the type of music they were playing.

I suspect if you did a detailed evaluation of the type i was talking about, you would find the difference clear enough.

IMO. An Audio Note system sounds completely different to say a Linn one, which in turn sounds different to a Naim one.

The reason I rate the 35i, is because it seems to marry some of the "liquid" qualitiy of valves, with the iron grip of SS.

 

[iceman16]

Back to the original question though, I have still yet to see or hear any meaningfull evidence of amps being particularly good or bad with one particular style of music.

That in turn depends on the amps you have heard and the type of music they were playing.

I suspect if you did a detailed evaluation of the type i was talking about, you would find the difference clear enough.

IMO. An Audio Note system sounds completely different to say a Linn one, which in turn sounds different to a Naim one.

The reason I rate the 35i, is because it seems to marry some of the "liquid" qualitiy of valves, with the iron grip of SS.

I agree

 

[chebby]

... the "liquid" qualitiy of valves, with the iron grip of SS...

I give up. We are getting dangerously close to descriptions like ...

"It's like living in a mouse's ear lined with silk, eating grapes and drinking chateauneuf du pape." *

..and the comparisons with liquid chocolate that used to plague the forum!

*That is not invented. Someone here once said it about their Unison valve CD player!

 

[Overdose]

Back to the original question though, I have still yet to see or hear any meaningfull evidence of amps being particularly good or bad with one particular style of music.

That in turn depends on the amps you have heard and the type of music they were playing.

I suspect if you did a detailed evaluation of the type i was talking about, you would find the difference clear enough.

IMO. An Audio Note system sounds completely different to say a Linn one, which in turn sounds different to a Naim one.

The reason I rate the 35i, is because it seems to marry some of the "liquid" qualitiy of valves, with the iron grip of SS.

But all of that implies that none of those amps are audibly transparent and they all colour the sound in some way and would therefore be far from perfect. I suppose one could be neutral out of the pack, but such noticeable differences between the others would make me want to turn around and walk out of the door.

I can understand a manufacturer trying to create a house sound to differentiate their equipment, but then that stears away from the fidelity part of hifi. OK for some if you like to have the sound coloured in some way, but not not for me certainly.

I still maintain that if you want to tinker and adjust tonal colouration in a system, then you may as well buy an equaliser and put that in the system. In fact, if DSP was used, you could probably recreate the house sound of pretty much any audio item.

Have you carried out a double blind evaluation of this equipment yourself by the way?

 

[BigH]

Back to the original question though, I have still yet to see or hear any meaningfull evidence of amps being particularly good or bad with one particular style of music.

That in turn depends on the amps you have heard and the type of music they were playing.

I suspect if you did a detailed evaluation of the type i was talking about, you would find the difference clear enough.

IMO. An Audio Note system sounds completely different to say a Linn one, which in turn sounds different to a Naim one.

The reason I rate the 35i, is because it seems to marry some of the "liquid" qualitiy of valves, with the iron grip of SS.

Ok then what music is Naim best at playing?

And Cyrus

Audiolab.

Musical Fidelity.

Rega.

Linn.

Audio Note.

Creek.

Arcam.

Roksan Kandy.

 

[lindsayt]

Overdose, or anyone else vaguely interested,you're welcome to pop round my place where I have an 8 watt SET valve amp, a 300 watt solid state amp, 103 db efficient corner horn speakers, 84 db efficient conventional 3 way coned and domed speakers. That's 4 different amp and speaker combinations. For music we can play a live 2 men with their acoustic guitars recording and a bass heavy disco track to make a total of 8 different music / amp / speaker combinations.

You would also be welcome to bring any amp and speaker combination that you wished to bring.

We wouldn't be talking about huge differences between the amps as both my amps are good examples of their genres. But there would be icing on the cake differences between them, with the best choice of amp depending on the music.

 

[CnoEvil]

... the "liquid" qualitiy of valves, with the iron grip of SS...

I give up. We are getting dangerously close to descriptions like ...

"It's like living in a mouse's ear lined with silk, eating grapes and drinking chateauneuf du pape." *

..and the comparisons with liquid chocolate that used to plague the forum!

*That is not invented. Someone here once said it about their Unison valve CD player!

BS is my speciality.

 

[Overdose]

Overdose, or anyone else vaguely interested,you're welcome to pop round my place where I have an 8 watt SET valve amp, a 300 watt solid state amp, 103 db efficient corner horn speakers, 84 db efficient conventional 3 way coned and domed speakers. That's 4 different amp and speaker combinations. For music we can play a live 2 men with their acoustic guitars recording and a bass heavy disco track to make a total of 8 different music / amp / speaker combinations.

You would also be welcome to bring any amp and speaker combination that you wished to bring.

We wouldn't be talking about huge differences between the amps as both my amps are good examples of their genres. But there would be icing on the cake differences between them, with the best choice of amp depending on the music.

That's a kind offer and something I would be very interested in, but probably unlikely to happen due to geographical situation. If you're ever in the westcountry though, you would be welcome to listen to the ADMs, but I would imagine you'd be leaving your system behind for your hols.

 

[CnoEvil]

Ok then what music is Naim best at playing?

And Cyrus

Audiolab.

Musical Fidelity.

Rega.

Linn.

Audio Note.

Creek.

Arcam.

Roksan Kandy.

The problem here is "art brain" vs "science brain"......in other words trying to apply objective critera to a subjective topic. Appreciation of music is an art, not a science, like the appreciation of a painting or a photograph.

What I think sounds good, someone else may not (and vica versa), so everybody has to find out what works for them.

Out of your list, I don't like Cyrus, Naim, Linn (amps) and Audiolab for anything

Roksan is OK for everything

Rega, Creek, Arcam and Musical Fidelity are good across the board, with Arcam often sounding a little safe

Musical Fidelity (AMS) and Audio Note are outstanding, with the AMS range being a little more versatile

This doesn't mean anything, other than what I think. Trouble usually comes when folk insist that they are "right", when in fact they are only expressing an opinion.

 

[BigH]

Ok then what music is Naim best at playing?

And Cyrus

Audiolab.

Musical Fidelity.

Rega.

Linn.

Audio Note.

Creek.

Arcam.

Roksan Kandy.

The problem here is "art brain" vs "science brain"......in other words trying to apply objective critera to a subjective topic. Appreciation of music is an art, not a science, like the appreciation of a painting or a photograph.

What I think sounds good, someone else may not (and vica versa), so everybody has to find out what works for them.

Out of your list, I don't like Cyrus, Naim, Linn (amps) and Audiolab for anything

Roksan is OK for everything

Rega, Creek, Arcam and Musical Fidelity are good across the board, with Arcam often sounding a little safe

Musical Fidelity (AMS) and Audio Note are outstanding, with the AMS range being a little more versatile

This doesn't mean anything, other than what I think. Trouble usually comes when folk insist that they are "right", when in fact they are only expressing an opinion.

Thanks.

From my limited experience I would have thought Arcam and Rega are better for classical, jazz, vocals and pop rather than hard rock. I tend to agree about RK and MF .

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks.

From my limited experience I would have thought Arcam and Rega are better for classical, jazz, vocals and pop rather than hard rock. I tend to agree about RK and MF .

I wouldn't disagree.....as this is more where my taste lies, which colours my judgement.

The two groups on here will never agree ie Accuracy to the recording vs Accuracy to the real thing (Neutral vs Natural, as I like to call it...which i know is a little simplistic).

 

[CnoEvil]

But all of that implies that none of those amps are audibly transparent and they all colour the sound in some way and would therefore be far from perfect. I suppose one could be neutral out of the pack, but such noticeable differences between the others would make me want to turn around and walk out of the door.

I can understand a manufacturer trying to create a house sound to differentiate their equipment, but then that stears away from the fidelity part of hifi. OK for some if you like to have the sound coloured in some way, but not not for me certainly.

I still maintain that if you want to tinker and adjust tonal colouration in a system, then you may as well buy an equaliser and put that in the system. In fact, if DSP was used, you could probably recreate the house sound of pretty much any audio item.

Have you carried out a double blind evaluation of this equipment yourself by the way?

It would have been totally impractical to have done so, as this equipment has been heard in a variety of situations like shows and musical evenings.

Instead of getting hung up on all this testing, I have gone out and experienced stuff first hand (for nearly 40 years). FWIW. I am certainly not claiming to have a monoply on the truth, but at least i have generally heard the stuff that I talk about.

I try to make my contribution proactive, positive, supportive and relevant...but personal bias always creeps in.

 

[Macspur]

I've got a revelutionary idea... how about amps with tone controls?

For years I've had amps without, constantly struggling to fine one that just sounds right and now I've come full circle I wouldn't be without them.

Mac

 

[BigH]

I have tone controls but never use them, always use the direct button. But if I didn't have them?